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EccentricfootingsandcombinedfootingsStructuralengineeringothertechnicaltopicsEngTips

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Eccentricfootingsandcombinedfootings

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Inouroffice,colleaguesoftenuseloadreductiontodesignfootingswiththecolumnsdirectlyontheexteriorportionof
thelot(zeroclearance)toavoidoversizefootings.Thisoftenresultsinunderdesignedexteriorfootings.NowIneedto
designonethatneedstousethefullcommercialliveloadanddeadloadfor4storeys.Thefootingsthatcomeoutof
SAFEareabout50%bigger.Thelothas12metersdistanceendtoendand3columnsspanningthem(or6meters
beamspan).I'mthinkingofusingcombinedfootingsforthe3columnsinarow.Buthaven'tseenmuchbook
referencesthattreatsuchformostcombinedfootingsoftenuse2columnsonly.DoyourecommendthatIuse50%
biggerspreadfootingsfortheeccentricfootingoronecombinedfootingforthe3columns?Whichwouldhavebetter
seismicresistance,forthosewithexperienceoffamiliarwiththem?Iunderstandthecombinedfootingismore
sensitivetovariablechangesinloadingaffectingtheshearsandmomentsinthespan.Thankyou.

NotsureIunderstand.Whenyousaythelotis12metres,anddividedinto2spans,doesthatmeanitis12metres
wideor12metresdeep?Iassume12metreswide,sothereisacolumnateachboundaryandoneinthemiddle.In
thatcase,acombinedfootingforallthreecolumns,orastrapbeambetweenfootingstoresisttheexternal
eccentricity...eitherwouldwork.
Thereareseveralapproachestothisproblem.Thecombinedstrapfootingforthreecolumnsisprobablythesafestand
best.
The50%biggerfootinghasnomeritwhatsoeverasithasnobasis.
OnemethodwhichIhaveusedistoprovidearectangularfootingwiththeshortdimensionparalleltothebeam.This
minimizestheeccentricitybetweenthecolumnandthefooting,butitrequiresthatthecolumnbedesignedforthe
eccentricmomentfortheheightofthefirststory.Italsorequiresthatthetopofthefirststorycolumnbetied
continuouslyacrosstotheoppositeside.
Ihavedonethisforoneortwostorybuildingsbutneverforfourstorybuildings.Itmaybeabitofachallengebutitis
worthlookinginto.
BA

Pleasefindattachedthefoundationlayout.Ihaven'tworkedwithcombinedfootingsbeforethatencompassed3
footingsthatis5.8meterapart(seepicture).IfIwon'tuseanycombinedfootingsandjustuseisolatedfootingsasas.
Cananyonecommentontheseismicbehaviorofitasfarassettlementandlateralmovementisconcerned?Theside
footingsaremuchlargerthanthemiddle(butloadsonehalfofthemiddle).Duringverticalandlateralseismicshaking,
wouldthereberealtendenciesforthemtogetseparated?Hopethosewhohaveactualexperienceorhaveworkedon
thisveryirregularfootingscancommentasIhavenoexperienceworkingwith3combinedfootings.Andwould
horizontalcombinedfootingsforthe3columnsmakeitsignificantlysmaller?Anywhohasworkedonsuchproblem
before?Thanks.

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Makingthesidefootingsmuchlargerthanthecentrefootingisnotlogical,anddoesnotaccomplishwhatyouwant.I
woulduseacombinedfootingofconstantwidthallacrossthethreecolumns.Thesearegenerallydesignedwiththe
assumptionthatupwardsoilpressureonthefootingisuniform.Tohelpyouvisualiseitbetter,justturnitupsidedown,
andyouhaveatwospanbeamwiththethreecolumnsactingasthesupports.Soyourmainreinforcementinthespan
willbeatthetop,andatthecolumnsinthebottom.
Iagreewithhokie.Usecombinedfootingsacrossthreecolumns.
BA

And,bytheway,pattontom,youshouldhaveseenthisforyourself.
BA

hokie66,
ThefoundationsizescomefromSAFE.IfImakeitsmaller,theendofthefootingwouldtilt
andbearingcapacityreducesconsiderablyandonlythefootingportionbelowthecolumnswouldfeelthefullweight
andevenexceedthesoilbearingcapacity.Remembercolumnsmustbepositionwiththekernregionforallpartsofthe
footingstobeincontactwiththesoil.Gooutsideitandtheendliftsup.Howcomethelayoutdoesn'taccomplishwhatI
want?Idon'tunderstand.Pleaseelaborate.Thanks.

Quote(pattontom)
ThefoundationsizescomefromSAFE.IfImakeitsmaller,theendofthefootingwouldtilt
andbearingcapacityreducesconsiderablyandonlythefootingportionbelowthecolumnswouldfeelthefull
weightandevenexceedthesoilbearingcapacity.Remembercolumnsmustbepositionwiththekernregion
forallpartsofthefootingstobeincontactwiththesoil.Gooutsideitandtheendliftsup.Howcomethe
layoutdoesn'taccomplishwhatIwant?Idon'tunderstand.Pleaseelaborate.Thanks.

WhattheheckisSAFE?
Useacombinedfootingwithalengthof11.73mandawidthofwhateveryourequire.Youwillhavethreecolumns
applyingloadtothecombinedfooting.Youmustreinforcethefootingfortheresultingbendingmomentsandshears.
Yourpresentfoundationplanisunacceptablebecausetheexteriorcolumnsareoutsidethekernoftheexterior
footings.
BA

I'msurprised.YoumeanintheUnitedStatesyoudon'tdesignanyfootingwhosecolumnsareoutsidethekern?Butin
othercountries,itisquitepopular.Hasnooneelseheredoit??
AboutSAFE.See:
http://www.csiberkeley.com/safe
"SAFEistheultimatetoolfordesigningconcretefloorandfoundationsystems.".

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Well.ThefootingsizescomefromSAFE,whichcanmodelthecolumnwithzeroclearance.Thereasontheprogram
produceshugefootingsispreciselybecauseitaddressestheshearandmomentissues.
Hopeotherscancommenttoo.
Youhavesomuchfootingareawithrespecttothebuildingarea,Ithinkyoushouldinvestigateamattfootingdesign
here.
MikeMcCann
MMCEngineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

IcannotcommentonthepracticeintheUnitedStatesasIresideinCanada.AsIstatedinanearlierpost,Ihave
consideredusingafootingwheretheloadfallsoutsideofthekern.WhenIdid,Imadesurethatthecolumnhad
adequatestrengthandstiffnesstodelivertheloadtothefootingsuchthatthesoilpressurecouldbereasonably
uniformlydistributedoverthefootingarea.Yourfoundationplandoesnotaccomplishthat.
Iwouldnotconsideradoptingyourfoundationplaninarealstructure.Ifitcomesfrom"SAFE",Iwouldnotconsider
using"SAFE"forfuturefoundationdesign.
Itshouldbeselfevidentthat,giventhesizeofyourfootingsandthesmallgapbetweenthem,thatacombinedfooting
incorporatingthreecolumnswouldbemoreefficientthanthreeseparatefootings,theoutsidetwoofwhicharehugely
eccentrictotheappliedload.
Ifthatisnotselfevidenttoyou,weneedtotalkalittlemore.
BA

Iagreewithmsquared48thatamatfootingwouldbewellworthinvestigating.
BA

IagreewithHokieandBAthatthebestsolutionistousecombinedfootings.Hokiesuggestsagoodwayvisualizeyour
problem.And,BAsuggestsspanningtheseinthe11.73mdirectionandsuggestsyoumustbemisusingormis
understandingthisSAFEprogram.Itseemstomethatthefourcornercolumnswillhavetheleastgravityload,the
centerexteriorcolumnswillbenextandthemiddlecolumnwillhavethegreatestload.Tothatextent,youmight
changethewidthofthesecombinedfootings,intheimmediateareaofthecolumns,inproportiontotheseload
magnitudes,totrytoequalizethesoilbearingpressuresabit.Butthoseformingchangesmaycostmorethanthe
addedconcreteofaconstantwidthfootingwhichwasprimarilybasedonthegreatercolumnloadofthethree.Youalso
seemtoshowafoundationwallbetweenthecolumns.ThismightbeturnedintoaninvertedTeebeambetweenthe
columns,inkeepingwithHokiesvisualization.

Combinedfootingsthatusesmorethan2columnsisverysensitivetotheloads.SinceIdon'tknowthefutureloadsor
exactpositionsofthefurnituresormovableitemsinthecommercialspacesinthe4storeythatwouldbeput,Ican'tbe
certainoftheexactpositionsoftheshearandmoments.Howdoyouhandlethisin3combinedfooting?
dhengr,it'sfootingtiebeamaroundtheperimeterofthelayout.Anyway..guys..Fortwocombinedcolumns..toget
resultant..oneusesx=(columnload1)Length/(columnload1)x(columnload2),whatformuladoyouusefor3
columnsinarow?AllexamplesIsawinreferencesusesonly2columnsincombinedfootingexceptmatfoundation.In
mycountry..manystructuralengineersputthecolumnsattheedgeofthefootingtosavepreviouslandspaces
especiallyincommercialestablishmentssoonecan'taffordsetbacksowehavefewexperienceswithlimitedcombined
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footingthatuses3columnsspaces.Istherenoothercountrylikeminethatusesthelayoutoften?
Idon'tknowwhatcountryyouarein,butprinciplesofstructuralanalysisdonotchange.Thisisjustatwospanbeam
problem...whatcouldbesimpler?Everythingcan'tbedeterminate.Placingcolumnsattheedgeofisolatedpadfootings
isjustnotappropriate.Youhavethreecountrieswhohavechimedin:US,Canada,Australia.Weallagreethatyour
schemeispoor,whetheryouthinkitis"popular"ornot.
Anothervoteforacombinedfooting.Iknowmygeotechwouldbeconcernedaboutdifferentialsettlementswithfooting
sizethatvariedbyabout50%.Iwouldsaythatyourofficemightusethislayoutoften,wouldpullyourwholecountryin
onthestatement.Iwouldalsosuggestthatthisisonprojectswherehavingcombinedfootingwouldbedifficultand
alsothefootingarenotofthesizebeingconsideredforthisproject.WhatIwouldsayismostpeoplewoulddothesein
arectanglenotsquarearrangementifpossible.
http://data.bolton.ac.uk/staff/phm2/files/Semester...

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programmingtodayisaracebetweensoftwareengineersstrivingtobuildbiggerandbetteridiotproofprograms,andthe
Universetryingtoproducebiggerandbetteridiots.Sofar,theUniverseiswinning."

Thanksguys.SoI'llusecombinedfootings.Anyway.Therearandbackofthegroundfloorisopenandthesecondfloor
frontandbackcantilever1.5metersforwardandback.Onlytheleftandrightsidehasfull6"thickwall.Mytranverse
sideisweak.Irelysolelyonthecolumnbeamjointstogivestrengthtotheopenfrontandback.Anyonecancomment
aboutopenstory?Areyouconfidentthatjointsmomentframesareenough?Ican'tuseshearwallsbecausethefront
andbackhastobeopened.Anysuggestions?Thanks.
Youcouldusemomentframes.Thefootingscontinuousacrosswillhelpwiththat.Iwouldtrytomakethecolumnsas
deepaspossibleinthatdirection.
Momentframesinthetransversedirectionappeartobetheonlyoptiongiventhearchitecturallimitationsdescribed
above.
BA

Thecombinedfootingsthingideaseemssimple..justupsidedowncolumnsandbeamsanduppertensionatmidspan
andlowertensionatsupports..howmanyhaveactuallydesignedsuch?anyunexpectedproblemsyouencountered?
thefollowingistheidea..notethelowercombinedfootingscan'tbeexactlyrectangular..anyothersuggestions?any
torsionsyouthinkcanhappen?alsonotethevaultposition..anytorsionfromthisandhowdoyouthinkoverallcan
behave?

Whycan'tthelowerfootingbestraight?Justcentreitalongthelineofthethreecolumns.Thevaultjustgoesonitown
footing,probablyjustathickslabongrade.
Theseareelementaryquestions,whichyoushouldbeaskingofyourmentor.Ihopeyouhaveone,ifyouaredesigning
4storeystructures.
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Idon'thavementorandthisisnotelementaryquestion.I'llexplain.Wearetryingtofixtheproblemdonebyanother
engineerwhogavethedesigntoourclient.AsIhavesaid.95%ofengineersinmycountryuseeccentricfootings.The
followingistheoriginalsizeofthefootings(andhenceactualbuildingload)fromArea=ServiceLoad/bearingcapacity.
I'llcontinueaftertheimage...

Theengineer(thatwearenotconnectedwith)didthefootingsizeusingArea=ServiceLoad/bearingcapacityandjust
putthecolumnattheexteriorsideoffooting.Wefeelthebuildingmayoverturnbecausetheformulausedisfor
centrallyuniformbearing.NowwhatwedidwastoincreasethesizeofthefootingstowhatIsharedyesterday(the
picturewithverybigsidefootings).Nowwhenyouguyssuggestedwedocombinedfootings.Itisstilloversized..that
is..thecombinedfootingswouldhavearea3timestheactual.Ifwedoitwithactualareacorrespondingtoactual
weight.Itwouldbecomeverynarrow(justimaginehowyouwoulddocombinedfootingsoftheabovepicture).You
maysuggesttousestrapbeam,butthecontractoroftheclientsandmostcontractorscan'tdostrapbeambecauseit
isquitecomplicatedduetothefactthattheremustbenosoilbearingunderneaththebeamandthisisdifficulttodoin
mycountry.Sodoesanyonehaveothersuggestion?Thereasonit'sdifficulttodothecombinedfootingthingisbecause
wecan'tmakethewidthsmalleranymorebecausetheshearandmomentswouldnolongerbesafefortheeccentric
footings.SomaybeImustusemyoriginaloversizeisolatedfootings?Myconcernisthedifferentialsettlement.Or
maybejustdomatfoundationtosolveitandjusttelltheclienttomakehisstorydesignedfor6storeybecauseof
foundationissues?
Thisisturningintoamessysituation.Ithinkyouaregoingtogetyourselfintoabunchoftroubleifyoucontinuewith
thisdesign.Ifyoudonothaveamentor,thenteamupwithamoreexperiencedstructuralengineerinyourarea.You
cannotexpecttogettheentiredesignconceptfromaforumsuchasEngTipsanditisclearthatyoudonotunderstand
thedesignprinciplesinvolved.So,beprudentandgetthelocalhelpyouneed.

BA

No.Wehave3engineersworkingwiththis.Ok.IliveinthePhilippines.95%ofengineersusefulleccentricfootingsin
buildings.IsthereanyonehereinthePhilippineswhocancommentwhyweusethemwhenthisisnotallowedinother
countries?Butifdesigned,itcanreallywork.Seethefollowing:

Itworks,isn'tit?Anycomment?thisiswhymostengineersinPhilippinesuseit.Althoughyoumayagreethatthisis
goodonlyforverylowriseupto3storey,right?Ifthisistheonlysolutionwehave.ThenIhavetoadviceclienthis
layoutisoptimumonlyfor2storeyor3.Iadmitthatfor4storeysandup,theeccentricfootingcangetsobigand
createtheproblemIhavenow.

Whyhaveyouassumedthatthepreviousdesignwasinadequate?ThosebeamsshownFTB1looklikestrapbeamsto
me,butIdon'thaveanydetails.Usingstrapbeamstorectifytheeccentricityisaperfectlyacceptablesolution,but
supportingthecolumnsontheedgeisnotacceptable,evenif95%ofPhillipineengineerswoulddoitthatway.

Thosearenotstrapbeams..FTBmeansFootingTieBeam,asshowninthepreviousengineerplanabove..theyare
connectedjustbelowthefloorslabsandabovethefooting.Thisisjusttopreventsettlementbutnothandlethe
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eccentricty.Well,thereasonhisfootingsnotadequateisbecausetheloadingsheusedplustheweightofthefootingis
howhegotthearea..butthisisforcentrallyloadedfooting.Sohegotitwrong.Anyway.I'lladviceclientthateitherI'll
useoversizedcombinedfootingtomakeit6storeyorhehastosettlefor2storeytojustusezeroclearanceeccentric
footing.Thisisallowedfor2storeyorresidentialsbecausetheloadsareonlyverysmall.ThePhilippinescopyallthe
structuralcodesintheUnitedStatesACIbutintheportionsinfootings..thekernrequirementisremovedtosave
pages..thatiswhymostdesignsyoucanseeusecolumnslocatedatsideorevenatcorneroffootinginresidentialor
lowrisecommercial..butnotinhighrisewhichneedscentrallyloadedfooting.

Whynotusestrapbeamsoftherequiredbendingcapacityonthosegrids?Strapbeamsworkinbasicallythesame
mannerascombinedfootings,andIfailtoseewhy"theremustbenosoilbearingunderneaththebeam"isa
requirement.Wheredidthistalkof6storeysvs.2storeyscomefrom?Ithoughtyousaidthebuildingis4storeys.
Yourcolouredsketchesabovearenotvalid.Justincreasingthesizedoesnotmakethepressureuniform.

Thenyoumissedthis:
http://www.structuremag.org/article.aspx?articleid...
"Conclusion
Resultsindicatethatwhenastrapfootingisusedaspartofafoundationsystem,adetailthatallowsforpressuretobe
relievedfromthestrapfootingisnecessaryonconstructiondocuments.Withoutit,aconsiderableunforeseenloadpath
couldbecreatedthatmayresultinthefailureofthestrapbeam,followedbyoverstressofthesoil/rockunderthe
eccentricfooting.Itisalsoimportanttoemphasizetheneedforfieldenforcementandcontroloftheserequirements."
It'sdangerous.It'sunderground,onecan'tknow.Atleastinbeamsaboveceiling,youcanseewarningit'sfailingby
thebeamflexing.Undergroundnowarningandsuddenfailure.Hencestrapbeamsnotusedhereandnocontractors
makethem.
Foreccentricfootingthatisoversize,theendcanserveascounterweighttotheeccentricendhencesoilpressurecan
befairlyuniform..butnoteeveninactual,bearingofsoilvs
clayarenotuniform,sothecounterweightcandothetrick.Weuseditonmillionsofbuildingsandnoonecollapse..
butonlyforresidentialandlowrisecommercial.
ThereasonIsuggesttomakeit6storeyisbecausethesizeofthecombinedfootingswould
belargerthanareaof4storeysomakeaswellmakeit56storeyindesigntoavoidwaste
offoundationconstruction.Italkedwithclient.Wewillgoforcombinedfootingsthat
thatwouldgaptheentirelot.Hopecalculationsnextweekcansupportit.Butwecangofor4storeyifthedesigncan
makeitpossible.2otherengineersarealsoworkingonthissameprojectandtheywilldothecalculations.
1.Thearticleon"HeavilyLoadedStrapFootings"isnotapplicablehere.Youdonothaveloadsof3000or4000kips
andyoudonothaverockwithasubgradereactionof800poundspercubicinch.
2.Ifyouuseeccentricfootingsasfirstproposed,theexteriorcolumnmustcarrytheentireeccentricmomentofthe
exteriorfooting.Itcanbedonebutitisnotefficientanditmaybeunacceptablearchitecturally(becausethecolumnis
toolarge).
3.Ifyouusecombinedfootings,youwillhavethreeloadsoneachfooting.Thecentroidofthosethreeloadswillbe
nearthecentroidofthefooting.Ifthefootingissufficientlyrigid,thepressurewillbenearlyuniformoveritsentire
area.Itwillhavepositiveandnegativemomentswhichmaybereinforcedwithcontinuoustopandbottombarsrunning
thefull11.7mlengthofthefooting.
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4.IunderstandthatwindforcesinthePhilippinesarequitehigh,sotherigidframesinthetransversedirectionwill
benefitfromrotationalrestraintatthebaseofeachcolumn.Suchrestraintwillbeprovidedbyacombinedfootingbut
notwithindividualpadfootings.
5.Thereisnoneednocreateavoidunderanypartofeachofthecombinedfootings.Infact,avoidwouldbe
detrimentaltotheproperfunctioningofthefoundation.
6.Thereisnoneedtomakeeachcombinedfootingwideenoughforasixstorybuilding.Makeitwideenoughforafour
storybuildingbecausethatiswhatyouhave.Itshouldbedeepenoughsothatitbehavesasarigidbody.
7.Donotjogthesouthfoundationasshownonanearlierplan.Makeitstraightsothatyourreinforcementcanbe
madestraight.Itsouterperimeterwillthenbeaparallelogram.

BA

Thanks.Iknowgapisnotnecessariyforcombinedfootings..onlyforstrapbeam.Myonlyconcernfornowbeforewe
meetthedesignteamnextweekisthecombinedfootingsmaybenarrowifdesignedfor4storeyonly.Thedesigned
columnsizesare0.5x0.4meterwiththe0.5inthelongitudinaldirectionwitheachsupportinglessthanorabout300
kips.Canthewidthofthe11.7metercombinedfootingbemerelysay1.5meter?Forisolatedfooting.Itiseasyto
calculatethelengthandwidthoftheareabygettingthesquarerootofit.Butincombinedfooting.Ifthetotalareais
say17.55sq.meterandthelengthis11.7meter,thenthewidthisonly1.5meters.Isthissufficient,ormusttherebe
certainminimum?ThisistheonlyquestionfornowbeforeImeetthedesignteamnextweekforintegratingintothe
SAFEsoftware.Sopleasebearwithmeforthisimportantandlastquestionaboutthewidth.Thanks.
Quote(BA)
2.Ifyouuseeccentricfootingsasfirstproposed,theexteriorcolumnmustcarrytheentireeccentricmoment
oftheexteriorfooting.Itcanbedonebutitisnotefficientanditmaybeunacceptablearchitecturally
(becausethecolumnistoolarge).

Interestingpoint.Canthecolumnbaseconnectionnotbedetailedtoalleviatethis?
SeeattachedfromPeck&Thornburn
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=a7f77d9fce96413ab17706

slickdeals,
Thereferenceyouattachedshowsexamplesofcombinedfootingsandalsofootingwithstrapbeams,bothasdescribed
above.Usingthesesolutions,thereisnomoment(oratleastnoaddedmomentduetoeccentricityfromthefooting)
onthecolumns.BA'sstatementwasabouteccentricpadfootings,withnorectifyingmoments.
Iwonderifmycombinedfootingistoonarrow.Initialactualcalculationsshow:
Middlecombinedcolumns
ServiceLoadofColume1:730Kn
ServiceLoadofColume1:1200Kn
ServiceLoadofColume1:900Kn
Footingweight:200Kn
TotalServiceload:3030Kn.
SoilBearingcapacity:150kpa
Areaofcombinedfootings:20.2
Lengthofcombinedfootings:11.7
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Widthofcombinedfootings:1.72meters
Imaginefootingthatspan11.7metersandonly1.72metersinwidth.Thecolumnsizesare0.5x0.5onaverage.Won't
thewidthbetoonarrowandthewholesetupcanoverturn?IfImakethewidth3meters.Thenthevolumeandweight
offootingwouldbeabouttwice.Isthisadvisableinpracticetousetwicethearearequired?Hasanyonedesigned3
combinedfootingshere?Whatdoyousayoftheshortwidth?AlsoIassumefootingdepthof0.5meterswhichis
averageforisolatedfooting.Arefootingdepthsforcombinedfootingsdeeperusually?
Alsotheresultantwouldnotexactlybeatthecenterofthe11.7combinedfootingbutmorethanthecenteronthe
right.Wouldthisproducebearablesoilpressureatall?Iscombinedfootingsinmycaseabadorgoodidea?
Nextweekmypartnerwoulddothedetailcalculationsofthepunchingshear,moments,etc.butthethicknessconcerns
meandit'stheonlyfewthingIwanttoknowastipsfornow.Thanks.
Iwonderifmycombinedfootingistoonarrow.Initialactualcalculationsshow:
Middlecombinedcolumns
ServiceLoadofColumn1:730Kn
ServiceLoadofColumn1:1200Kn
ServiceLoadofColumn1:900Kn
Footingweight:200Kn
TotalServiceload:3030Kn.
SoilBearingcapacity:150kpa
Areaofcombinedfootings:20.2
Lengthofcombinedfootings:11.7
Widthofcombinedfootings:1.72meters
Thisisnotquitecorrectbecausetheloadsarenotquitecenteredonthefooting.
e=(900730)(5.870.25)/3030=0.315m
S=1.72(11.7)^2/6=39.2m3
P*e/S=3030*0.315/39.2=24.3kPa
SoP/A+M/S=174kPa(needwiderfootingorpossiblytaperedfootingtomeetstipulatedsoilbearingof150kPa).
Imaginefootingthatspan11.7metersandonly1.72metersinwidth.Thecolumnsizesare0.5x0.5onaverage.Won't
thewidthbetoonarrowandthewholesetupcanoverturn?Itmight,butitwouldbearesultofNSwindonthe
shearwalls.Youhavetoprovideameanstocarrywindontheendwallsdowntotheground.Thecombinedfootinghas
notbeensizedforthat.
IfImakethewidth3meters.Thenthevolumeandweightoffootingwouldbeabouttwice.Isthisadvisableinpractice
tousetwicethearearequired?No,itisnotaneconomicalsolutiontotheproblem.Youcouldinvestigateotherwaysof
handlingnorthsouthwind.Hasanyonedesigned3combinedfootingshere?Whatdoyousayoftheshortwidth?AlsoI
assumefootingdepthof0.5meterswhichisaverageforisolatedfooting.Arefootingdepthsforcombinedfootings
deeperusually?Notnecessarily,butyoumustcheckbending,shearanddeflectiontomakesureyouhaveaworkable
solution.
Alsotheresultantwouldnotexactlybeatthecenterofthe11.7combinedfootingbutmorethanthecenteronthe
right.Wouldthisproducebearablesoilpressureatall?Iscombinedfootingsinmycaseabadorgoodidea?
Nextweekmypartnerwoulddothedetailcalculationsofthepunchingshear,moments,etc.butthethicknessconcerns
meandit'stheonlyfewthingIwanttoknowastipsfornow.Thanks.
BA

IpostedbeforeIhadfinishedcommenting.
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pattontomstated(inblack,mycommentsinred):
Alsotheresultantwouldnotexactlybeatthecenterofthe11.7combinedfootingbutmorethanthecenteronthe
right.Wouldthisproducebearablesoilpressureatall?Yes,indeed.Seemycalculationabove.Iscombinedfootingsin
mycaseabadorgoodidea?Itisagoodidea,butyoumustcarrythroughwithacompleteanalysisofhowthevarious
loadsaffectyourfoundation.
Nextweekmypartnerwoulddothedetailcalculationsofthepunchingshear,moments,etc.butthethicknessconcerns
meandit'stheonlyfewthingIwanttoknowastipsfornow.Thanks.Idon'tknowwhatthicknessyouwillneedwithout
doingthedesign.Try500mmforastartandseehowthereinforcementworksout.Ifitistoocrowded,youcanalways
alterthedepth,widthorboth.
BA

@pattontom,lookingatyour"soilbearingarea"diagrams(24Nov1220:36).Theweightofthefoundationplusthe
overburdenmodifiesthelocationofthecentroidofloadbutnotenoughtogiveyouthepictureontheright.That
pictureshowsafootingnotinequilibrium!Inallofthese,F=0andM=0mustbetrue.Yourthirddiagramisnotin
equilibriumandmakesitlookasthoughonlythebottomisintensionwhileitisthetopforatleastpartofthelength.
Michael.
Timinghasalottodowiththeoutcomeofaraindance.

@paddingtongreen,
Ithinktheideainthethirddiagramisthattheeccentricityoftheloadisdesignedtobecarriedbythecolumnin
bending.Thismeansbendingmomentsinbothcolumnandfootingaswellashorizontalforcesattopandbottomof
column.
Dependingonthepropertiesofthesoilandrigidityofthecolumn,thesoilpressureunderthefootingwouldbe
variable.
BA

paddingtongreenandBA,inthesoilbearingdiagram,allaxialloadsarethesame.Indiagraminthemiddlewith
eccentricloadbutnormalsizefooting,thecolumnatedgecanproducetensionin90%ofbottom.Butintherightmost
picturewithoversizefootingandsameaxialloadwithrespecttoleftdiagram,thebendingandshearandsheerweight
ofthefootingcancompensatefortheliftingandmakeitstable.ThisiswhatSAFEshows.BA,whatdoyoumeanthe
columnhastobedesignedforbending,itdoesn'tbendbecausethe2ndfloorhasbeamsthatdirectlyconnecttheleft
andrightsideofthelotandallcolumnsconnectedcontinuouslyinupperfloors(startingwithsecond)andthefloor
diaphragmsmakesitactasoneunit.Thisisthesetupformillionsofhomesinourcountry.Whatdoyouthinkiswrong?
Anyway.IsitspecificallymentionedintheACIthatthecolumnneedstobelocatedinsidethekern?Nextyearour
structuralcodewhichiscopiedfromtheUSAwillbeupdated.MaybeIcanconvincethecommitteetoincludethekern
thingandmakeallnewbuildingpermitobeyit?Forthattobetrue,weneedtomastertheartofcombinedfootings
whichisquiterarehere.Forexample,thesetupI'mdoinghavenotbeendonebymorethan80%ofengineershere
andtheyhaven'thandledsuchthingbeforeexceptmostlymatandpilesfoundation.
BA.WhatdoyoumeanofNorthsouthwindontheshearwall?Idon'thaveanyshearwall,theleftandrightwallsare6
inchesConcreteHollowBlockfilledwithcement.Thebackhaswallthatis1.5metersbeyondthecolumns
(cantilevered),thefrontisopenastheplacewouldbeleasetobanksinthefuture.Alsorememberthe3stripsof
combinedfootingswillbeconnectedtotheupperfloorssolidly.Sohowwouldsmallerwidthofthecombinedfootingsin
eachofthemoverturnthebuildinglongitudinally(whichislongerthanthetransverseside)whentheyareconnectedas
aunit?
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Pattontom:
AreyouarealStructuralEngineer?Yourquestionsandlackofbasicunderstandingofstructuralprinciplesandconcepts
bringsthisquestionintoplay.Thissoundslikeaprettybigprojecttobecuttingyourteethon,andwithsometypical
structuralcomplicationstoo.And,nowyousaytherearetwootherengineershelpingyouthinktheywayyouare
thinking.Giventhetypesofquestionsyouareaskingitwouldseemwise,tome,thatyoufindalocalmentor,whohas
beenthroughthistypeofconstructionanddesignbefore,whoknowsthelocalcodesandmethodsofdoingthings,but
alsounderstandsbasicStructuralEngineeringmethods,andwhocouldsitwithallofyouandtalksomeofthisstuff
over.Youcouldbelookingatthesamesetofplans,seeingeachotherssketchesandfacialexpressionsasyou
discussedthesethings,backandforth.Hecangenerallyseewhenyouarentunderstandingwhatheistryingto
explain,andtryadifferentapproach.Severalrealsmartguysherearenthavingmuchluckchangingyourthinking.
Thatstoughertodofromadistanceandwithsomeonewhowehavehadnoexperiencewith.Youcanlearnanawful
lotfromtheseolderfellowswhohasbeeninthestructural/constructionwarsforalongertime,andhaveseensomeof
theseproblemsbefore.Contrarytoyourprotestations,yourcountrydoesnothavedifferentlawsofphysicsandgravity
thanourcountriesdo,andthemechanicsbywhichwedesignstructuresdontreallychangefromcountrytocountry
either.Theremightbeminorvariationsincodecriteria,buteventhosearenotappreciablydifferent.Noone,noteven
inthePhilippines,canputalargecolumnloadontheedgeofaspreadfootingwithoutprovidingsomemeansof
accountingforthiseccentricityeitherwithacombinedfooting,ortiebeamsasoneofyoursketchesshows,orby
momentcapacityinthecolumnsasBAsuggested.
pattontominblack,BAinred.
paddingtongreenandBA,inthesoilbearingdiagram,allaxialloadsarethesame.Indiagraminthemiddlewith
eccentricloadbutnormalsizefooting,thecolumnatedgecanproducetensionin90%ofbottom.Ifthecolumnat
edgeishingedtothefooting,itisaneccentricload.Itproducesvariablecompressiononthesoilneartheedge,but
cannotproducetensionbecausesoilcannottaketension.Soitproducesatriangularblockofcompressionnearthe
edge.Butintherightmostpicturewithoversizefootingandsameaxialloadwithrespecttoleftdiagram,thebending
andshearandsheerweightofthefootingcancompensatefortheliftingandmakeitstable.Thisissimplynottrue.
ThisiswhatSAFEshows.Idon'tthinkso.BA,whatdoyoumeanthecolumnhastobedesignedforbending,itdoesn't
bendbecausethe2ndfloorhasbeamsthatdirectlyconnecttheleftandrightsideofthelotandallcolumnsconnected
continuouslyinupperfloors(startingwithsecond)andthefloordiaphragmsmakesitactasoneunit.DrawaShear
ForceandBendingMomentdiagramforthefooting.Themomenttakenbythecolumnisthefootingloadmultipliedby
theeccentricitytothecenterofcolumn.Thisisthesetupformillionsofhomesinourcountry.Whatdoyouthinkis
wrong?Ithinkwhatiswrongisyourunderstandingofthesituation.Anyway.IsitspecificallymentionedintheACIthat
thecolumnneedstobelocatedinsidethekern?No,itisnotnordoesitneedtobe.Nextyearourstructuralcodewhich
iscopiedfromtheUSAwillbeupdated.MaybeIcanconvincethecommitteetoincludethekernthingandmakeallnew
buildingpermitobeyit?Don'teventrybecausethatwouldbewrong.Forthattobetrue,weneedtomastertheartof
combinedfootingswhichisquiterarehere.Forexample,thesetupI'mdoinghavenotbeendonebymorethan80%of
engineershereandtheyhaven'thandledsuchthingbeforeexceptmostlymatandpilesfoundation.Nocommenton
thatasIdonotknowyourlocalpractice.
BA.WhatdoyoumeanofNorthsouthwindontheshearwall?Idon'thaveanyshearwall,theleftandrightwallsare6
inchesConcreteHollowBlockfilledwithcement.Anearliercommentofyoursstatedthattheleftandrightwallsarefull
6"andIassumedtheywereshearwallsforlateralforcesactinginthenorthsouthdirection.IamassumingNorthat
thetopofyoursketch.Thebackhaswallthatis1.5metersbeyondthecolumns(cantilevered),thefrontisopenasthe
placewouldbeleasetobanksinthefuture.Alsorememberthe3stripsofcombinedfootingswillbeconnectedtothe
upperfloorssolidly.Sohowwouldsmallerwidthofthecombinedfootingsineachofthemoverturnthebuilding
longitudinally(whichislongerthanthetransverseside)whentheyareconnectedasaunit?Theshearwallsmustbe
effectivelycarrieddowntofootinglevelorsomeotherbracingsuppliedtopreventoverturningofthecombinedfootings
aboutanEastWestaxis.

Quote(pattontom)
Thanksguys.SoI'llusecombinedfootings.Anyway.Therearandbackofthegroundfloorisopenandthe
secondfloorfrontandbackcantilever1.5metersforwardandback.Onlytheleftandrightsidehasfull6"
thickwall.Mytranversesideisweak.Irelysolelyonthecolumnbeamjointstogivestrengthtotheopen
frontandback.Anyonecancommentaboutopenstory?Areyouconfidentthatjointsmomentframesare
enough?Ican'tuseshearwallsbecausethefrontandbackhastobeopened.Anysuggestions?Thanks.
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BA

Oh..hewasreferringtothebiaxialbendingmomentsofthecolumns..ofcourse,it'stakencareof.Wemostlyuse
staadandetabsingettingthemomentsofthestructures.Wedon'tdomanualcalculationsanymorehere(somany
structuralengrs.evenforgottheformulas).Afterwegotthemomentsinthesoftware.WeenterthemineitherPCA
columns,PCAbeams,SAFEorothersoftwaretogetthereinforcementsrequiredforshearsandmoments.
It'sjustthatwecommonlyusezeroclearanceeccentricfootingsevenatcornerofbuilding.Ourlocalcodesdon't
disallowit.Maybeit'stimewereallyupdateourcodes.Thereasonsthebuildingdon'tfailevenwithfullyeccentric
footingisbecausetheloadcombinationsweusedforthemomentsandshearishighatsay1.4DL+1.7LLor1.2DL+
0.5LL+1EQ.Nowwithactualserviceloadingsthatiswaydown,theactualbearingpressuresofthesoilactually
appliedisverylow.Thisishowwegetawaywithzeroclearanceeccentricloading.
BA,
Weonlyusedshearwallsforbuildingsabove5storey.Weneveruseshearwallsfor4storeyandbelow.Thewallsin
thepicturesareallconcretehollowblockthatonlyneedswallfootingandnotshearwallfoundation.Thebuilding
seismicresistingmembersareallspecialmomentframesinboththetransverseandlongitudinaldirections.Formy
layoutand4storey.Doyouthinkthisissufficient?Inyourcountryuptowhatstoreycanyouusepuremoment
resistingframesasthecompletelateralresistingsystem?

pattontom,
Hewasnotreferringtobiaxialmoments,onlythecolumnmomentwhichresiststhefootingmoment.
Onemoretryhere.Areyoufamiliarwiththeprincipleofsuperposition?Probablynot,ifyoujusttrustcomputer
programstodoyourjobforyou.Butontheoffchancethatsuperpositionringsabell,trythis:Takeyourbigfooting
andplaceitontheground.Thatgivesyouauniformsoilbearingpressureupwards,resistingjustthemassofthe
footing.Nowsupermposeaforce(yourcolumnload)attheedgeofthefooting.Whathappens?Ifthereisjustan
appliedforce,theforcegoesstraightdownthroughtheedgeofthefootingintothesoilbelow.Ifyouwanttodistribute
someofthatforcetotherestofthefooting,youhavetoprovideamomentconnectionofthecolumntothefooting.Do
youeverdesigncantileveredretainingwalls?Doyouhaveamomentconnectionbetweenthewallandthefooting?Of
courseyoudo.Idon'tknowwhyyoufailtoseethatthesameprincipleisineffecthere.
Backtoyourcomputerprograms...ifyoujustbelieveeverythingthatisoutput,youarejustatechnician,notan
engineer.IimaginetherearealotofcompetentengineersinthePhilippines,sowon'ttakeyourcommentsabout
standardpracticethereasaccurate.
Astoshearwalls,inAustraliawecommonlyuseshearwallswherevertheyareavailable,eveninsinglestorey
structures.

Ofcourseit'shandled.Thecolumnbarsareconnectedcontinoustothefootings.Idon'tusedowels.Fortheoriginal
oversizedexteriorfooting(themiddleleftside)withcolumnattheedgemostportionofthefooting.Thespecsarethe
following:
ServiceLoad:730Kn
Soilbearingcapacity:150kpa
Lengthoffooting:4.6metersFc'20.8mpa
Widthoffooting:3.0meters
thickness:0.650meters
Bottombarsalonglength:17pcsof20mmbarsgrade60
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Bottombarsalongwidth:11pcsof20mmbarsgrade60
Topbarsalonglength:17pcsof20mmbarsgrade60
Topbarsalongwidth:11pcsof20mmbarsgrade60
Withthis.Thereisuniformsoilpressureatthebottomofthe4.6x3meterfootingwith
serviceloadofonly730knevenazeroclearancecompletelyeccentriccolumnatedgeoffooting.Workofgenius?Lol.
ButI'lltrycombinedfootingbecausethesizesofthisandotherfootingsdifferby50%thatIfeardifferentialsettlement
canoccur.SoI'lltelltheotherseniorengineerstostartworkingonthecombinedfootingBAsuggested.IadmitI'm
justajuniormemberthough.Thanksfortheideasandclarificationsandtips.
Thesoilpressurewouldnotbeuniform,butlet'ssayitis.Usingyour730kNserviceload,thatwouldgiveasoil
pressureonyoursizefootingof53kPa.Thiswouldgiveyouaserviceloadbendingmomentatthefaceofthecolumn
(assuminga500column)of730kNm.Thisbendingthenhastobetakenbythecolumnaswellasthefooting.Cana
500x500columnresistthatmuchmoment?No,itcan't.

ThosenumberscomefromtheSAFEprogramandyouarerightthathavetomanuallyconfirmeverythingtheprogram
says.Hmm..howwouldcombinedfootingdesignhelptheninmakingtheedgecolumnresistthemoment?Remember
inthecombinedfootingversionthecolumnisstillattheedgemostlocation.Acombinedfootingonlydistributethesoil
pressuretothewholecombinedfootingencompassingothercolumns.
Inacombinedfooting,thecolumnsjustdeliverforcestothetopofthefooting.Thefootingthendistributesthese
forcestothesoilbybending.Themodelassumptionwouldbethatthecolumnsarepinnedtothefooting,althoughif
requiredtoresistlateralforces,theycouldbemomentconnected.Inthepinnedbasemodel,thefootingwouldhave
zerobendingattheexteriorcolumns.
Butifyouhaveanisolated,offsetpad,thenthecolumnhastodeliverboththeforceandamomentwhichbalancesthe
eccentricityofthesoilloading.Apinnedbasedoesn'twork.
IsuggestthatyoucontacttheSAFEtechnicalstaffforassistanceininterpretingtheprogramoutput.

Usinga0.5x0.5metercolumn.Doyouknowthetheoreticalaxialloadlimit,likemaybe100200KNonly,whereazero
clearanceeccentriccolumnonedgeoffootingcanwork(cantakethebendingmomentofanysizeoffooting)?Maybe
730KNwouldbesoheavy..sotheremustbeathresholdwhereitcanbedone.Anyideawhatitis?Maybethereasons
millionsofbuildingsinthePhilippinesusecolumnsatedgeoffootingisbecausetheloadingissolowthatitcan
theoreticallytakeit.
Well,takea150kNcolumnload.With150kPaallowablepressure,youwouldneed1.0m^2.Soyoucouldusea500x
2000footing.Noeccentricity.Ifthereisanyeccentricity,thesoilpressureisnotuniform,andthecolumnhassome
bendingmoment.

I'maskingofeccentricfootingwherethecolumnisatedgeoffooting.Becauseifthecombinedfootingsveryexpensive
andclientcan'taffordit.ThenI'dadvicehimtojustdesignbuildingfor2storeywithmetalroof.Butsincehiscolumns
needtobeatedgeoffootingwithmaximumeccentricity.Thenthedesignhastobeisolatedspreadfootingwith
maximumeccentricity.Iwonderwhatisthemaximumaxialloadtheoreticallypossibleforthisanysizeofcolumn.Iuse
EtabsandSafesallthetimethatIforgothowtocomputemanually.AndIwanttoverifyitwithmanualcomputations
first.Sopleasebearwithmethislastquestions.Thanks.
Ibelieveyousaidthesystemisusedononeandtwostorybuildings.Isuspectthattheweightofthebiggerfoundation
ismovingthecenterofloadawayfromthecolumn,thiswillbringsmallrelief.Ialsosuspectthatthecolumnistaking
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momentandthattheseeffectspluseatingintothesafetyfactorsiswhatisholdingupthebuildings.Withtheweightof
fourfloors,theweightofthefoundationislesssignificant,thatis,itwillmovethecenterofloadlessthanwithjusttwo
floors.
Aproblemforthoseofuswhoareprofessionalengineersisthatwecannotlivewithsomethingwecannotcoverwith
calculationsthatweunderstand.
Ifyoudrawafreebodydiagramofyourrighthanddrawing,takemoment6saboutthepointwherethecolumnhitsthe
foundation,youwillfindaresultantmomentthatcanonlygointothecolumn.Ifitishinged,themiddlediagramis
whatyouget,andthetopofthefootingneedstobereinforced.
Michael.
Timinghasalottodowiththeoutcomeofaraindance.

Eccentricityalwayshasconsequences.Noexceptions.MaybeyouthinkIameccentric.MaybeIam.
Complicationinthefootingsisnoreasonforreducingthescopeofthisproject.Youalreadyhadtiebeams,justmake
thembigenoughtoworkasrectifyingstrapbeams.
Nooffence,butusingcomputeraidswithoutanyknowledgeofhoworwhytheresultsaregeneratedisamuchmore
dangerousthingthaneccentricfootings.
HowfarbelowtopofGroundFloorSlabistheundersideoffooting?Section4/S5"ElevationofTiedColumn"isnotto
scale,butseemstoindicateasubstantialdifferenceinelevationbetweenslabandfooting.Inotherwords,howmuch
roomdoyouhaveforgradebeams?
Sofar,wehavebeentalkingaboutusingcombinedfootingsinthetransversedirection.Buttherearelateralforcesin
thenorthsouthdirectionaswellwhichmustbetransferredtothefoundation.Foundationdesignmusttakeinto
accountallforces.
ThethreepadfootingsonGridX2canbecenteredunderthecolumnswithnodifficulty.Perhapsastripfootingcouldbe
usedonGridsX1andX2withagradebeamoverittodistributethecolumnloads.Inthisway,theeccentricitywouldbe
smallandthecolumnmaybeadequatetohandletheresultingbendingmoment.
Alternatively,msquare48'sideaofamatfoundationcouldbeexplored.

BA

PlentyofexperiencedengineershaverespondedheretothetechnicalaspectsoftheoriginalquestionsoIwillstayout
ofthatconversation.
Pattontommyonlycommentisthatyouhavestatedthatyoudonothaveamentoryetyouareusingaverypowerful
programlikeSAFE.Tousethattypeofprogramwithoutknowledgeandexperienceinperformingthedesignbymanual
calculationsisamajorconcern.Thisisexactlywhatworriessomeofusgrayhairsthathaveseenthenextgeneration
ofstructuralengineerscomealongthatsimplytrusttheoutputfromaprogram.Iagreewiththerecommendations
abovethatyoufindalocalengineerthathastheknowledgeandexperiencetodesignthestructure.Goodluck.
Ron,
Otherengineershandlingthisandthecalculations.I'mjustoneofthemandjustofferingsuggestionsespwhen
eccentricloadingsarenormallydonebyanyonehere.

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BA,
Thegradebeamortiebeamareactuallyjustbelowtheslabswherethebeamsupportstheslab.
Aboutforcesinthelateraldirection.Ithoughtthelargerwidthofthecombinedhorizontalfootingscantakecareof
that.Rememberinisolatedspreadfooting,itcantaketranverseandlongitudinalforceswell.
Whenyoumentioned"ThethreepadfootingsonGridX2canbecenteredunderthecolumnswithnodifficulty.Perhaps
astripfootingcouldbeusedonGridsX1andX2withagradebeamoverittodistributethecolumnloads.Inthisway,
theeccentricitywouldbesmallandthecolumnmaybeadequatetohandletheresultingbendingmoment."Areyou
talkingaboutseparatestripfootingandgradebeaminX1andX2inadditiontothe3combinedhorizontalfootingsor
separate?
Matfoundationmaybeoverkill.Anywaymakingthewidthofthe3horizontalcombinedfootingscantakecareofthe
lateralforcesinthenorthsouthdirection?No?I'mstillwaitingfortheengineerinchargeofittodothecalculations.I
canonlyoffersuggestions.
Hokie66yousaid"Thesoilpressurewouldnotbeuniform,butlet'ssayitis.Usingyour730kNserviceload,thatwould
giveasoilpressureonyoursizefootingof53kPa.Thiswouldgiveyouaserviceloadbendingmomentatthefaceof
thecolumn(assuminga500column)of730kNm.Thisbendingthenhastobetakenbythecolumnaswellasthe
footing.Cana500x500columnresistthatmuchmoment?No,itcan't."
Howdidyougetthevalueofthe730KNmmoment?
Yourcolumnloadwasstatedtobe730kN.Usingyourassumptionthatthesoilpressureisuniform,thentheupward
soilpressureisalso730kN(ignoringlittlethingslikethemassofthefooting).Soyouhaveaforceupwardsof730kN,
centredatadistanceof1.0metrefromthefaceofthecolumn.730kNx1m=730kNm.Simplifiedandnotcorrect,as
thesoilpressurewouldvary,butillustrativeoftheproblemyouhaveindevelopingsuchalargemomentwithoutabig
column.
Togetdesignsoilpressure,formulaisqu=Pu/A
Theserviceloadis730kn
Deadloadis500kn.Liveloadis230kn.
SoPu=1.2DL+1.6LL=1.2(500)+1.6(230)=600+368=968Kn
qu=968Kn/(footingarea)^2
=968Kn/13.8^2sq.m
=70.14kn/m^2orkpa
Now.Moment=WuL^2/2
L=(4.60.5)/2=2.05
wu=qu(1meter)=70kn/m
Mu=WuL^2/2=70kn/m(2.05)^2/2=147kn.m
somomentoffootingisonly147kn.mandnotthe730knyoumentioned.
Quote(pattontom)
AreyoutalkingaboutseparatestripfootingandgradebeaminX1andX2inadditiontothe3combined
horizontalfootingsorseparate?

IwastryingtosuggestanalternativefoundationsystemconsistingofastripfootingonGridsX1andX3(ItypedX2in
error)andthreesquarefootings,eachcenteredunderacolumnonGridX2.Theadvantageisthatthestripfooting
wouldhaveasmallwidth,henceasmalleccentricitywhich,perhapscouldbecarriedbybendingintheexterior
columns.

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Asecondpossibilityistoprovideastripfootingallaroundtheentireperimeterplusonesinglesquarefootingunderthe
centralcolumnonGridX2.
Thestripfootingwouldhavetobestiffenoughtodistributethecolumnloadsoverthelengthoffooting.Idon'tknow
whetherthiswouldbepracticalornotbutitisworthexploring.
BA

Somethinglooksfunnythere.Is"13.8"theareaofthefooting?
MikeMcCann
MMCEngineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

ActuallywetriedthefirstideaalreadywithstripfootingingridX1andX3.Buttheimprovementisonly0.5meter
smallerwidth.Soinsteadof3meterstripfootinginsides.Wehave2.5meter.Andthereisstilleccentricityinthe
exteriorcolumns.Ithinkthebestisyourmainproposedhorizontalcombinedfootingplanwherethereare3horizontal
combinedfootinginrear,middleandfront..Don'tyouthinkthewidthofthe3horizontalcombinedfootingsisenough
toresistthenorthsouthlateralforces?Thedeadloadofthefrontandbackwouldbesufficienttoresistany
overturning,isn'titsowhydoyouworryaboutthenorthsouthdirection.Iwonderwhethertoaddgradebeamstoall
thefootingstomakethemomentsdistribute.Orwouldcombinedfootings(horizontal)besufficienttodoit??
msquared,yes.13.8istheareaofthefootingoftheleftmiddle.Seetheoriginalpic.Althoughthefootingonlysupports
loadof730kn.Thereasonitisoversizeistohandlethefactthecolumnisputattheextremeexteriorendwithzero
clearance.Theoversizeistoavoidthefootingtiltingandmanybarstopandbottomtodistributethemomentstoeach
areaofthefooting.Sothisisreallyfeasible,isn'tit.Butourproblemisdifferentsizesoffootingscancausedifferential
settlementsowethecombinedfootingswheretheleft,midandrightfootingisconnectedasone.
pattontom,
Yourcalculationgivestheultimatemoment/metreintheNorthSouthdirection.
MycalculationwasforthetotalserviceloadmomentfortheEastWestdirection,whereyouhavethefooting
cantileveredoffonesideofthecolumn.Thefootingis4.6metreswideinthatdirection,butthecolumnwouldhaveto
takethesamebendingmoment,soitwon'twork.

hokie,ifoneusesverystronggradebeamortiebeamabovethefootingandthebelowtheslabsholdingallthe
columnstogether.thiscantakecareofthebendingmomentsofthecolumns,isn'tit.Iwonderwhousethistechnique
andwhatistheadvantage,disadvantage..remembertiebeamcanredistributemomentsofallcolumns.
anyway.ifcombinedfootingsareused,itcanredistributethemomentsandtiebeamsnotneeded,right?
Quote(pattontom)
ActuallywetriedthefirstideaalreadywithstripfootingingridX1andX3.Buttheimprovementisonly0.5
metersmallerwidth.Soinsteadof3meterstripfootinginsides.Wehave2.5meter.Andthereisstill
eccentricityintheexteriorcolumns.

Whydoyouneed2.5mwidthofstripfooting?Aloadof730kNrequiresanareaof4.9m2whichcouldbesuppliedbya
stripfootingapproximately1minwidthwhichboilsdowntoaneccentricityof250mmassuminga500widecolumn.
Wheredoyoucomeupwiththesenumbers?
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Ifyoudonotstartlookingseriouslyandintelligentlyatoursuggestions,Iamgoingtodepartfromthisthreadwithone
lastrecommendation...findsomeoneinyourareawhoknowswhatthehellheisdoingbecauseyouclearlydonot.
BA

4.9m2aboveshouldread4.9m2.
BA

Theproblemwith1meterstringfootingatthesidesistheendofthefootingoppositetothecolumnscanliftup,thisis
becausewehavetoputthecolumnsontheleftsideof1meterfootingsothewallscanbeatedgemostlocation.That
iswhy2.5meterwascalculatedtodecreasetheliftupoftheothersideofthefootingwithheavilyreinforcement
momentbars.
OfcourseI'mseriouslyconsideringyoursuggestionofcombinedfootingsthatiswhyItoldtheseniorsengineerstogo
aheaddothedesignof3horizontalcombinedfootingsatback,middleandfrontandtheysayloadcombinationand
calculationscansupportitanditisstable.Sothankstoallyourusefulsuggestions.Youguysconvincedmecombined
footingsisthewaytogoforcompletelyeccentriccolumnpositions.
Quote(pattontom)
...Itoldtheseniorsengineerstogoaheaddothedesignof3horizontalcombinedfootingsatback,middle
andfrontandtheysayloadcombinationandcalculationscansupportitanditisstable.

Iwasjustwonderingwhyyourseniorengineersneedtobetoldwhattodo?Aren'ttheyexperiencedindoingthiskind
ofwork?Basedonthisthread,itseemsyouaredesigningacommercialbuildinginyourcountrythatyouarenot
capableofdoingso.Sorryforthewords.Ihopethatyoufindagoodmentortoteachyounotjustrelyingon
commercialsoftwares.Amaster'sdegreeinStructuralEngineeringinalocaluniversitymayalsohelp.

I'mjustanewgraduateandthebuildingissupposedtobemyfirstdesign.AlsoIhappeedntobetheoneassignedto
communicatewiththeclient.Thisiswhywiththeprojectgettingcomplicated.IlettheseniorshandlethemandI'mthe
middlemanorcommunicationchannelbetweenwhattheclientandarchitectwantsandtheseniorengineers.They
don'tdirectlycontacttheclientbecausetheyareworkingfulltimeonstructuraldesign.
Youseemtogetalongwiththeclient,askhim/hertobuyasmalllandforcentricfoundation.
Youshouldalsoconsidertheeffectofshearforcesatthetopofthefootingstothetotalbendingmoment.
AnalysisandDesignofarbitrarycrosssections
Reinforcementdesigntoallmajorcodes
MomentCurvatureanalysis
http://www.engissol.com/crosssectionanalysisdes...

WhenI'veencountereddifficultcombinedfootingwitheccentricityI'vebuiltaFEMmodelofthefoundation,onaspring
areasupporttovalidatestabilityandallowedsoilpressure.Thisalsoletsyouseeifit'sstableformultipleload
combinations..
Disclaimer:Didn'treadthewholethread.

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Withoutreadingthewholeofthethread,Ithinkitsveryimportanttodoappropriatedesignsofeccenticfootings.They
canbeverydangeroussoconsidercombinedorstrapfootingstosuit.
Quote(pattontom)
Oh..hewasreferringtothebiaxialbendingmomentsofthecolumns..ofcourse,it'stakencareof.Wemostly
usestaadandetabsingettingthemomentsofthestructures.Wedon'tdomanualcalculationsanymore
here(somanystructuralengrs.evenforgottheformulas).Afterwegotthemomentsinthesoftware.
WeenterthemineitherPCAcolumns,PCAbeams,SAFEorothersoftwaretogetthereinforcementsrequired
forshearsandmoments.

ThisisoneofthemostrecklessassertionsthatIhavereadontheseforumsinsometime.Ionlyskimmedthispost,
andIdonotmeantopreachorsoapbox,butIthinkit'susefultoaddressit.
Tom,asaselfdescribedrecentgraduate,youneedtorecognizethisstatementasahugeredflag.Ifyoupursue
engineeringasacareerwhichwillrequiredozensofcalculationsaday,forapprox.6500daysinyour25yearcareer
youareguaranteedtomakemistakes.Ifyoufollowtheleadofyourpeerengineerswhodon't"domanual
calculationsanymore"and"forgettheformulas",youareguaranteednottocatchthem.Andthat'sbad.
Strapfootings,combinedfootings,momentframes,orwhateverthesearejusttermsusedtodescribesomethingthat
triestobalancesomethingelse.AndbalanceisthesameonthatsideofthePacificasitistheother.
Equilibriumisn'taformula(eventhoughyoucandevelopformulastodescribeequilibrium).SoIwouldstronglysuggest
notfollowingthepathofyourpeersandforgettingitwon'tserveyouwellovertimeandintheend.
"Weshapeourbuildings,thereaftertheyshapeus."WSC

UseaPile
MJB315,yourcontibutionwasveryuseful.
AnalysisandDesignofarbitrarycrosssections
Reinforcementdesigntoallmajorcodes
MomentCurvatureanalysis
http://www.engissol.com/crosssectionanalysisdes...

John,
Iknowanditretrospectmypostwasalittletoopreciousandheavyhanded.ButafterIreadthroughthethreadfor
thefirsttime,Ifeltlikeringingthebell.
Tom,
Sorryforthebrusquenessofmypastresponse.Icouldhavebeenmorehelpful.Buteverythingstartswiththetruth
that:ifyoudon'twantyourstructuretomove,ithastobeinequilibrium.Sketchingitoutandputtingahandcalculation
toitwillgetyouatleast90%ofyourwaythere.It'showtheworldwasbuilt.
Ithinkthatdesigningtherightsizedcombinedfootingistheanswertoyourissue.Iwouldn'ttrytoresolveany
unbalancedmomentsbytryingtoengagetheanchorboltsandbendingthecolumn.It'stoodiceyinmyopinion,
especiallywhenthefoundationsolutionseemsthemoststraightforwardandtimetested.
"Weshapeourbuildings,thereaftertheyshapeus."WSC

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2/23/2016

EccentricfootingsandcombinedfootingsStructuralengineeringothertechnicaltopicsEngTips

Quote(pattontom)

hokie,ifoneusesverystronggradebeamortiebeamabovethefootingandthebelowtheslabsholdingall
thecolumnstogether.thiscantakecareofthebendingmomentsofthecolumns,isn'tit.Iwonderwhouse
thistechniqueandwhatistheadvantage,disadvantage..remembertiebeamcanredistributemomentsofall
columns.
anyway.ifcombinedfootingsareused,itcanredistributethemomentsandtiebeamsnotneeded,right?

tom,
Usinggradebeamstotakethelateralloadsiscommonpractice,itwillprovideadditionallateralsupportatthesame
timeitcouldcarryyourbrickwalls.forthecolumnsIreleasethesupportmomentparalleltowherethebeamwillspan,
soifihavegradebeamsatbothdirectionsthatwillhitmycolumnthenthatcolumnwillbepinnedsupported.
Anyway,itisalwaysagoodpracticetodosomehandcalculationsfromtimetotime.Andiusuallyprefertodosome
handcalculationsfirstbeforeusingacomputermodeltogeneratethecompletecalculations,thatwayigettopractice
andatthesametimecheckthecomputergeneratedresults.

combinedfootingwillhavemoreresistancetoseismicunlessyoutietheisolatedfootingswithbeams
chrismagadia
www.chrismagadia.com
ChrisMagadia.ComTheStructuralEngineers'ForumandResourcesWebsite.CivilizationsoweitsexistencetoStructural
Engineering.DoyouAgree?

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