<rajeevlalwani> sorry..

byt could not resist your colleciton <rajeevlalwani> sorry for the excessive accesses <rsclark7083> that's ok, but i've been plagued by socket errors <rsclark7083> which sometimes cause people to be accidentally kicked off <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rsclark7083> sorry if that happens to you <rajeevlalwani> hey no probs <rsclark7083> I assure you it's unintentional <rsclark7083> I'll take a look at your list <rajeevlalwani> but r u a professor or somehting ? <rajeevlalwani> please by all means <rsclark7083> I'm what might be termed a "wanna-be professor" <rsclark7083> haha <rajeevlalwani> ? <rajeevlalwani> aha ? <rsclark7083> that means that I'd like to be a professor <rajeevlalwani> or haha ? <rsclark7083> but have to make a living right now <rsclark7083> that's laughter <rajeevlalwani> hmm so r u a student ? . . . . <snip> (10 minutes of boring chat)

. . . <rsclark7083> you can always email me if you have questions about how these programs work <rajeevlalwani> I know most of the stufdf seem to be in queue <rajeevlalwani> hey thanks..I will <rsclark7083> When you find some good programs, you can send them my way, ok?

<rajeevlalwani> offcourse <rajeevlalwani> deal <rajeevlalwani> try the song GANGA from my list.. its a hindi song..I dont know how much sense it will make to you <rsclark7083> I have studied Hinduism and Buddhism so maybe I'll appreciate it <rsclark7083> thanks, I will try to download it <rajeevlalwani> well its a complaint to Ganges <rajeevlalwani> the river which flows across india <rajeevlalwani> why dont you improve the lots of the people there <rajeevlalwani> why dont you make them into proud humans.. etc <rsclark7083> That's Hinduism at the level of the common people, I'm afraid I've only studied the Advaita, Shankara, Ramanuja, etc. the philosophical stuff <rajeevlalwani> ! <rsclark7083> But I think I'll like it <rajeevlalwani> damm it.. <rajeevlalwani> you are.. at level 5. <rajeevlalwani> will have to descend.. <rajeevlalwani> whats the essence.. from all tha study clark ? <rajeevlalwani> key point.. ? you learnt ? <rsclark7083> It seems that in the West our concept of God is personal but all of our monotheisms are infused with mysticism, i.e., Sufi mysticism, Jewish Kabbala, Christian gnosticism, etc. <rsclark7083> While in the East the conception of God is of being *Impersonal* but the people practice their religion interms of God being personalized in the form of many household deities and greater deities <rajeevlalwani> I think RELIGION is hard wired.. into human brains. Which means we have an innate. Desire to worship. And that gives rise to the various froms ofr GODs..religion <rsclark7083> it makes for an interesting comparison of East and West, I think <rsclark7083> Exactly

<rsclark7083> I agree <rajeevlalwani> I dont know if this.. stands any trial of your sudies <rajeevlalwani> or more erudite..inquiry.. but I htink man should start and iqnuiry of themind.. before of the GOD <rsclark7083> how is it that so many human beings have spoken with God's voice if it's true that they have never heard His voice - that's the problem I have with Atheism <rsclark7083> And how is it that man is supposed to have originated in blind evolutionary process yet Man is not himself blind? <rsclark7083> that is, unconscious <rajeevlalwani> Hmm Its much like the Heizenbergs uncertainty principal..

<rsclark7083> what possible evolutionary purpose could there have been for consciousness? <rsclark7083> yes, rather <rajeevlalwani> we need to study.. brain..with brain.. <rsclark7083> indeed <rajeevlalwani> and since religion is hard coded..in the brain <rajeevlalwani> and only tool available to us to study is brain <rajeevlalwani> we will never be able to truly know the orginis.. unless some superior beigns examine us <rajeevlalwani> ! <rsclark7083> but ultimately we can't lift ourselves up by our own bootstraps if its just the brain looking at and probing itself <rajeevlalwani> Consciousness.. = how do you define it ? <rajeevlalwani> yep <rsclark7083> it is the medium and ground of thought and experience <rsclark7083> for this reason, consciousness cannot itself *be a thought* or *be an experience* <rsclark7083> do you see? <rajeevlalwani> hmm

<rsclark7083> it is prior to thought by being thought's very necessary precondition <rsclark7083> and therefore cannot be encompassed *within thought* <rsclark7083> that's why consciousness *as such* is transcendental <rsclark7083> In otherwords, consciousness has a reference to something that is beyond form, beyond space and time <rajeevlalwani> could it be that..lower animals have cosciousness but no thought ? <rsclark7083> time and space are just intuitions entertained by consciousness <rsclark7083> correct <rajeevlalwani> since they had only the neonatal..parts of the brain.. <rsclark7083> just think of the nature of consciousness during a dream <rsclark7083> Question: <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rsclark7083> is the brain a closed system? or is it open? <rsclark7083> I think I need some coffee to keep up with this discussion <rajeevlalwani> for later anwer( what would be the evolutionay purpose of DREAM ?) <rajeevlalwani> let me think <rsclark7083> can you wait a couple of minutes <rsclark7083> ? <rsclark7083> this is interesting <rajeevlalwani> i am on <rajeevlalwani> thinking <rajeevlalwani> with an open system.. <rajeevlalwani> getting coffee <rajeevlalwani> can you briefly ...define..a closed system.. <rajeevlalwani> so that we are on the same thread here. <rajeevlalwani> what is the key difference

<rsclark7083> in a closed system there is no distinction between different rates of times passage or of its direction <rsclark7083> time is just a spatial dimension within a closed system <rsclark7083> notice that /\t x /\E > h <rsclark7083> /\t represents the typical timescale of temporal processes within a quantum system <rajeevlalwani> keep it simple..<I can think, but do not have the notational knowledge> <rajeevlalwani> intuitive.. <rsclark7083> /\E is the energy uncertainty that is comprised by all the energy fluctuations with which a closed system interacts and exchanges energy so as to become an open system <rajeevlalwani> based on exprience and my own philosophy.. (I will answer based on this> <rsclark7083> thus achieving temporality <rajeevlalwani> let me digest <rsclark7083> In quantum mechanics the lifetime and decay times of quantum states are determined by the magnitude of the / <rsclark7083> /\E of the system <rsclark7083> the degree to which the system is perturbed by energy fluctuations of the quantum vacuum in its vicinity <rsclark7083> I used to take grad course in physics though nonmatriculating <rajeevlalwani> i can see that <rsclark7083> I was informally collaborating with a physics professor who had a quantum gravity theory he was working on <rajeevlalwani> wow <rajeevlalwani> thats the last piece (gravity) you need to crack <rajeevlalwani> why did u leave that? <rsclark7083> he believed that gravity was not based on spacetime curvature but upon spatiotemporal variations in vacuum momentum-energy density <rsclark7083> because I ran out of money <rsclark7083> I didn't have an assistantship

<rsclark7083> i had to work through school <rajeevlalwani> shame. <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rsclark7083> but i'm planning on maybe going back <rajeevlalwani> u must <rsclark7083> I still correspond with him and exchange ideas <rsclark7083> he left academia also <rajeevlalwani> hw is it relvant to the dicsussion on brain ? <rsclark7083> and is a PhD physical chemist for a german polymer company <rajeevlalwani> i mean say gravity energy ? <rsclark7083> more lucrative, I guess <rajeevlalwani> yep... end...game..is money <rajeevlalwani> few.. continue.. to have belief <rajeevlalwani> for that.. one has to be FOOLISH and LUCKY <rsclark7083> it is complex but the only way that mutually perpendicular time lines of individual consciousness can interact is with a spacetime that possess at least some spacetime curvature <rajeevlalwani> that cuvature comes by gravity ? <rsclark7083> otherwise the distinct subjective temporalities cannot connect <rsclark7083> correct <rajeevlalwani> like in the black hole ? <rsclark7083> rather than the other way around <rajeevlalwani> collapse.. <rsclark7083> which is what Einstein believed <rajeevlalwani> uh <rsclark7083> in a black hole time and space axes have been completely interchanged <rajeevlalwani> again whats the relevance with brains open and closed system >

<rajeevlalwani> I am not getting htis.. <rsclark7083> all energy fluctuations become 3-momentum fluctuations mediating binding forces holding the black hole together and so the hole is cut off from the perturbing effects of the quantum vacuum energy fluctuations <rajeevlalwani> assuming a brain to be a biochemical device.. <rajeevlalwani> its is a closed system > <rsclark7083> the brain as a quantum system is embedded in this quantum vacuum <rajeevlalwani> yet the output (thoughts) it produces..is not controllable..and hence it is an open system <rsclark7083> the electrons within the microtubules within each neuron act as waveguides resonating to the quantum vacuum fluctuations in energy <rsclark7083> the brain does not produce consciousness <rsclark7083> but is a kind of reducing valve and tuning device <rajeevlalwani> no ? <rajeevlalwani> i see. <rajeevlalwani> thats very interesting ? <rsclark7083> each brain tunes to its own unique spectrum of vacuum signals <rsclark7083> each person's consciousness taps into its own quantum vacuum energy <rsclark7083> so each observer projects his own wavefunction onto quantum systems that can be observed <rsclark7083> there is a different state function for each observer or potential observer <rsclark7083> these distinct vacua only couple within a curved spacetime <rsclark7083> in fact, according to David Bohm, all causal relationships between expectation values can be alternatively represented in terms of correlations of fluctuations about these expectation values <rsclark7083> the local causality is underpinned by nonlocal correlation <rsclark7083> in other words <rajeevlalwani> ? <rsclark7083> nonlocal interactions are faster than light and are infrasubjective

<rajeevlalwani> Can you relate it to a common lay ..explanation..please <rsclark7083> local interactions are causal and are inter-subjective <rsclark7083> the connection of the mind to itself is nonlocal <rsclark7083> the connection between distinct minds is local <rsclark7083> and causal <rajeevlalwani> I see. <rsclark7083> energies less than the energy uncertainty are nonlocally connected <rsclark7083> energies larger than the enregy uncertainty are locally connectable <rajeevlalwani> Summarise please in common terms.. layterms.. <rajeevlalwani> ( I recommend you read Simon Singh;s books) you will reach out.. to lay people like me better ! <rajeevlalwani> He is a PHD in particle physics.. <rsclark7083> well, the basis of the integration of the individual's consciousness by virtue of which the individual is self-conscious cannot be represented abstractly or in terms of formal symbols it is beyond la <rajeevlalwani> wrote about Fermats theorem.. <rajeevlalwani> best selller.. <rsclark7083> but the basis of the interrelation of distinct consciousness is formally describable <rsclark7083> I think I've heard of this book <rajeevlalwani> read it.. <rsclark7083> most of the proof was using a computer program, I seem to recall <rajeevlalwani> his ability to relate the erudite scientific concepts to a lay mans terms is fantastic <rajeevlalwani> well..Andrew Weils..used.. three sets of mathematics <rajeevlalwani> by induction <rsclark7083> I can put some of this better in lay terms but it takes too much thought to do it on the fly, as it werre <rsclark7083> sorry about that, but I'm still trying to understand all of this stuff myself <rajeevlalwani> I know..

<rajeevlalwani> can appreciate <rajeevlalwani> but which also means that you are losing audience... <rsclark7083> we believe induction is valid because it's worked so well as a method of inference in the past :) <rajeevlalwani> the local connection! <rajeevlalwani> brain to brain connection.. is not in sync <rsclark7083> induction has to invoke itself for its justification in other words <rsclark7083> kinda circular <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rajeevlalwani> wow.. <rsclark7083> i think that there is not explanation for consciousness <rsclark7083> because there has to be something from which everything else derives <rsclark7083> naturally whatever that is will itself not be derivable from anything else other than itself <rsclark7083> so the explanation of what consciousness is is - simply the experience of pure consciousness itself which,of course, if beyond any particular structure or function or form <rajeevlalwani> Tell me.. once in the meditation.. <rajeevlalwani> these are days when I went into extended meditations <rajeevlalwani> and I would want the <rajeevlalwani> how do you explain that ? <rsclark7083> meditation is just allowing the mind to stop throwing up all of these particular forms of itself <rajeevlalwani> throwind ? <rsclark7083> it is kinda like the experience by the ocean of itself when there are no waves or disturbance in it <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rsclark7083> pure consciousness is no different from nonbeing <rsclark7083> or pure being

<rsclark7083> they are the same <rsclark7083> the circle is completed <rsclark7083> pure being and pure nonbeing are identical <rsclark7083> and from this contradiction of being and nonbeing all things follow <rsclark7083> pure being transcends the merely relative dual distinction of existence versus nonexistence <rsclark7083> this is why the question "Does God Exist?" is naive and misguided <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rsclark7083> because God transcends the distinction of existence versus nonexistence <rsclark7083> existence and nonexistence are just the two most general forms that pure being can take when it first seeks to manifest itself <rajeevlalwani> yep.. <rsclark7083> so of course this thing which transcends existence versus nonexistence is reality <rsclark7083> and we don't have to question its reality <rsclark7083> that's the answer <rsclark7083> there has to have always been something <rsclark7083> and what better candidate for this something than that from which everything can originate <rajeevlalwani> are you saying.. we can connect..with our own ..existince and nonEx? <rsclark7083> through manifestation <rajeevlalwani> are you saying.. we can connect..with our own ..existince and nonEx? <rsclark7083> only through nodoing and nonthinking <rajeevlalwani> meditation ? <rsclark7083> Karma is a Sanskrit word for "doing" <rajeevlalwani> doing <rajeevlalwani> act <rsclark7083> so when you escape the cycle of rebirth, that is, Karma you are in the state of nondoing

<rajeevlalwani> u could escape that..while stillll living ? <rajeevlalwani> i mena via meditation.. where u seemingly STOP <rsclark7083> the stringing together of moments of one's life into a continous track is what reincarnation really is in its most general aspect <rajeevlalwani> all htoughts.. <rajeevlalwani> but then death..put a file marker..or sorts.. <rajeevlalwani> and how do you connect from one filemarker to another.. <rsclark7083> living is a manifestation of pure consciousness within time and space though which in its essence transcends time and space <rajeevlalwani> ! <rajeevlalwani> thats very interesting <rsclark7083> there ar limitations associated with being infinite <rsclark7083> such as not being able to experience uncertainty, surprise, learning, growth, communication, etc. <rsclark7083> so there's a reason for each infinite being to descend into time and space <rajeevlalwani> hmm perfect <rsclark7083> communication is the reduction of the uncertainty of another mind about something <rsclark7083> when you're infinite you don't have any uncertainty that can be reduced by anybody <rsclark7083> so you can't communicate with or contact another mind <rsclark7083> you're cosmically lonely <rsclark7083> if you will <rsclark7083> all the more reason to make the leap of faith and limit yourself <rsclark7083> risk existence <rsclark7083> in the hope that others will being doing the same <rajeevlalwani> ! <rajeevlalwani> aha <rajeevlalwani> so finite living is a limitation !

<rsclark7083> you see, the world is a negotiated collective enterprise on the part of myriad transcendent minds who have all volutarily and foolishly jumped into the realm of limitation to enter into community <rsclark7083> with the other <rajeevlalwani> so we all .. are we scared of infinite.,, ? <rsclark7083> but it is our natural state <rajeevlalwani> that may explain that I was scared... in a state of mediation.. <rsclark7083> that's where you came from <rajeevlalwani> when I start losing.. would not be able to call myself BACK <rajeevlalwani> if you like.. <rajeevlalwani> very interesting.. <rsclark7083> don't you realize that you are God? <rsclark7083> deep within yourself <rsclark7083> you have to realize this <rsclark7083> each of us is God <rajeevlalwani> ! <rsclark7083> but the descent into spacetime was not through limitation borne of simple negation <rsclark7083> if that were true, then you could just go back by negating the negation by which you came here <rsclark7083> it would all be a game and there would be no real risk in volved <rsclark7083> you would not really have left the confines of your cosmic loniliness you would not really connect with the other in this way <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rsclark7083> each of us had to risk being lost and never finding our way back <rsclark7083> otherwise it's just playing and doesn't mean anything <rsclark7083> like a role playing game

<rsclark7083> you have to really lose your connection from your transcendent self to actually meet with other beings who are doing the same thing <rsclark7083> some people, like Buddha or Jesus learned how to reconnect to their transcendent selves <rajeevlalwani> but u cant meet them because they r infinite..? <rsclark7083> you might say that each of us is a more or less unsuccessulf attempt to make a Jesus <rajeevlalwani> can infinite communicate with the infinite ? <rsclark7083> no <rajeevlalwani> loneliness <rajeevlalwani> hmm essence <rajeevlalwani> else there wont be lonliness <rajeevlalwani> eh <rsclark7083> the infinite must become finite and enter a common medium with other infinite beings who've also limited their selves to communicate <rajeevlalwani> beautiful <rsclark7083> mediation is limitation <rsclark7083> that's why we have to become embodied <rsclark7083> become part of a common medium <rsclark7083> spacetime or ether other whatever <rsclark7083> but it necessariliy means we have to leave the transcendent state <rsclark7083> transcendence is absolute, *unmediated being* <rsclark7083> you see <rsclark7083> ? <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rsclark7083> without mediation and hence limitation there is no communication <rajeevlalwani> i am here <rajeevlalwani> damm it

<rsclark7083> but if we were both beyond space and time then there'd be no here or there between which communication could ensue <rsclark7083> you know <rsclark7083> what I mean? <rajeevlalwani> but then <rajeevlalwani> is it possible for the infinite to communicate with the finite..WHY the gAps.. <rajeevlalwani> why is there a gap.. <rsclark7083> that is a good question <rajeevlalwani> why is there a informtaiton (or packet) loss when infinite manifests <rajeevlalwani> into finite <rajeevlalwani> why packet loss ? <rsclark7083> because not medium can contain the nonmediated <rsclark7083> sorry if this seems a play of words <rsclark7083> but language can sometimes fail us <rsclark7083> when we try to speak of the unspeakable :) <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rajeevlalwani> it just did <rajeevlalwani> did not answer <rajeevlalwani> eh <rsclark7083> I never said that I had *all the answers* :) <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rajeevlalwani> i know.. i decided to tease.. part of being FINITE <rajeevlalwani> :) <rsclark7083> just I've picked up some good ideas from eastern thought and quantum physics and its philosophy <rsclark7083> yep

<rajeevlalwani> I think religion and science would converge one day! <rsclark7083> Are you of Indian ancestry? <rajeevlalwani> an anti DARK ages.. <rajeevlalwani> I am an indian <rsclark7083> way to be <rajeevlalwani> in US for last 6 montsh only <rsclark7083> what part of India are you from <rsclark7083> ? <rajeevlalwani> but lived in ME for 5 yrs.. UK for some time and india balance of the ealry life of 33yrs <rajeevlalwani> Rajasthan <rsclark7083> ? <rajeevlalwani> jaipur <rsclark7083> I have a Bengali friend <rsclark7083> who I work with <rajeevlalwani> ? <rajeevlalwani> norht <rajeevlalwani> north <rsclark7083> he is proud of being a Brahmin, I suspect <rajeevlalwani> hmm I can speak bengali <rajeevlalwani> I like that language a lot <rajeevlalwani> ! <rsclark7083> is it related to Sanskrit <rsclark7083> ? <rajeevlalwani> whatss there to be so proud of? <rsclark7083> well its the highest caste, isn't it?

<rajeevlalwani> I dont know.. I think the best he will do is to brag of being an Indian <rsclark7083> yeah <rajeevlalwani> rest must dissolve..Bull Shit.. <rsclark7083> Indian philosophy is the deepest I think <rajeevlalwani> well it used to be <rajeevlalwani> sorry for that use <rajeevlalwani> yes <rsclark7083> back when Europeans were still in animal skins and living in caves <rajeevlalwani> I would htink so.. but why ? <rajeevlalwani> why did it happen there ? <rsclark7083> Indians had an advanced civilization <rajeevlalwani> may be because we had peacefull civilisation <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rsclark7083> yes <rajeevlalwani> peace.. where peoplke had time to THINK <rajeevlalwani> key to innovation <rsclark7083> by being less restless you as a people were more open to the whisperings of the transcendent <rajeevlalwani> telll there is an innate desire.. <rajeevlalwani> to be in a continuum <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rsclark7083> you were able to listen easier to what God is always trying to tell us <rajeevlalwani> better stated... <rajeevlalwani> I think we also chose a sorta <rajeevlalwani> SHORT CUT <rajeevlalwani> to GOD

<rsclark7083> yes <rajeevlalwani> which is by yoursefl as you said god is YOU <rajeevlalwani> so the shortest route would be to be with yourself.. <rajeevlalwani> meditate...etc <rajeevlalwani> think <rsclark7083> Indian Philosophy cut to the heart of all of the big questions <rajeevlalwani> where as the west is taking the circutious route..of sciences..emperical..testing <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rsclark7083> Well, Rajeev, I'm going to send you some emails <rajeevlalwani> restless <rsclark7083> if that's ok <rajeevlalwani> please <rsclark7083> do you have some writings or other stuff you'd like to send? <rajeevlalwani> happy to read them <rsclark7083> some of it maybe naive, but if you'd care to comment, I'd appreciate it <rsclark7083> thanks <rajeevlalwani> its not complete <rajeevlalwani> offcourse <rajeevlalwani> I wanted u to htink..on one more <rsclark7083> ok <rajeevlalwani> question <rsclark7083> sure <rajeevlalwani> which is why do I have this desire to be connected.. in a sense of continuum ? ANd musci seem to give that <rajeevlalwani> in the sense <rajeevlalwani> in many ways.. the intent to be an anlogue..device..

<rajeevlalwani> let me write to you <rsclark7083> I've wondered about that somewhat vaguely, but never really asked the question to myself <rsclark7083> ok <rsclark7083> cool <rajeevlalwani> will chat some other time <rajeevlalwani> U know music seem to provide that <rajeevlalwani> chalo .. let reconnect <rajeevlalwani> someothe day <rsclark7083> yes, I'm going to rest my brain <rajeevlalwani> need to address some finite needs <rsclark7083> Hey, you've been a really sharp chat partner <rajeevlalwani> hmm <rsclark7083> yep <rajeevlalwani> is it ! <rajeevlalwani> whats your email ? <rsclark7083> Well, I'll take off for now . . I'll send you some more programs <rajeevlalwani> send me..he meail I will know <rsclark7083> rclark7083@home.com <rajeevlalwani> by <rajeevlalwani> bye <rsclark7083> enjoyed it. . .talk to you soon!