Professional Documents
Culture Documents
VOLUME VII-A
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT_COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF VlfclNllT: | =
2 Alexandria Division *™~-:-.....-*-
3 X- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X
19
APPEARANCES:
20
(As heretofore noted:)
21
22
23
24
* * *
25 DON McCOY, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT
REPORTER 683-3668
2
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 2 of 187
I N D E X
WITNESS FOR THE UNITED STATES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
ELIZABETH JEU 11 18 27 29
E X H I B I T S RECEIVED
14
GOVERNMENT EXHIBIT NO. 3 2-F
15
GOVERNMENT EXHIBIT NO. 3 2-H and I
28
GOVERNMENT EXHIBIT NO. 3 2-D
30
GOVERNMENT EXHIBIT NO. 3 2-C
* * *
P R O C E E D I N G S MR. ANDERSON:
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 3 of 187
Bench?
reported as follows:)
respect to the tax case, Count XIII, or our case. At that point
Mr. Robinson said that anything after 1983 was coming in in the
in the tax case and was only being utilized in the tax case,
argue —
Several people —
certified lack of record of tax files for Helga LaRouche for the
Helga1s function, what she did and where. She is a German citizen.
There are questions of German tax laws, treaties that might exist
between the United States and Germany as to why she doesn't have
Government*
filed by her.
Government
has taken the position the forms 302 are not Jencks -material
with, respect to him. This will be another Individual who has left
nature of Mr. Tate or Mr, Curtis where those particular forms are
Government has-.
material. He has never even been shown those documents He has never
called?
22 intend with Pam Goldinan on the stand to get into the issue of
23
campaign.
Second, they have tried to make the point Mr. LaRouche does
indictment.
idea why': they are calling Dave Goldman. I have read his
case.
view was not as clear as Mr. Markham would have on what Mr.
10
14 we heard from Tate and Curtis, but not with a view towards
15 f undraising.
19 what he feels- the relevance is. I will let him go into it.
20
25
directed Mr. Anderson not to go in the business of who is
11
Government does not want to look to this jury like we are trying
Whereupon;
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FITZGERALD:
Q Good morning.
A Good morning.
Q Could you please state your name and spell your last
12
Service Center.
Revenue Service?
A Yes, sir.
Lyndon H. LaRouche?
United States.
13
5 BY MR. FITZGEKALD:
7 Exhibit 32-F.
9 one?
11 that we —
13 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
18 Center transcript.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 13 of 187
14
A I did.
32-F.
in evidence.)
BY MR. "FITZGERALD:
has not filed a return for the tax years '79 through '87.
15
a record for tax years 1980 through 1987 for Mr. LaRouche.
32-H and 32-1 at the sane time, please. Based on your review of
payments completed .for the years 1980 and — 1979 and 1980?
A Yes, sir.
this document,
A Yes.
Be received in evidence.
FITZGERALD:
question?
A Yes, sir. From the NCC transcript, I can tell in the tax
return; tax year '81, ta-x year '82, and tax year '83, he
Q And for the tax years '81, '82, and '83, were those
notices all sent out at the same time? Are they dated the same?
A Yes,
A The first notice for those three tax years was mailed
in November of '84.
out?
A Yes , I can.
17
14 testimony that she ever saw these notices. She has already
BY MR. FITZGERALD:
20
Q What is contained in the form notice itself on the 2*
computer?
24
have income from any source, then file the return or give us
25
an explanation as .to why you are not liable to file.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 17 of 187
18
to file a return.
A Yes, sir.
Jr.?
A Yes, sir,
19
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 18 of 187
Revenue Service.
you can tell from this document, there was no check for
LaRouche?
correct?
A Yes, sir.
transcript?
A No, sir.
20
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 19 of 187
correct?
A Yes, sir.
particular date?
A No, sir.
When would the tax return be due for tax year 19-81?
A The tax year — I mean the tax return for tax year
A No, sir.
Q Is there a policy?
automatically generated.
21
Q Any others?
A No, sir*
A No, sir.
A Yes, sir.
A Yes.
York, 10019.
22
A No, sir.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 21 of 187
correct?
A That is correct.
A Yes.
there.
23
A Yes, sir.
notices?
Q How about page four for tax year 1982, does that
A Yes, sir.
A Yes, it does.
24
saying?
A That is correct.
A No, sir.
that area,
25
A No, sir.
Q It would not?
A Just a minute.
A That is correct.
the address.
outside of the one on page one for Mr. LaRouche that notices
26
comes in to us.
that appear?
Q Yes.
Mr. LaRouche that the IRS has is that Radio City Station
27
A That is correct.
No further questions.
you able to tell when the address was changed to the address
for LaRouche, Box 976, Radio City Station, New York, New York.
stipulated to that.
FITZGERALD: Yes.
Service Center prepared, indicated that she had sent Mr. LaRouche
document?
A Yes, she did. She indicated that she had changed our
Q Does that indicate a date that the change was made? A The
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 27 of 187
29
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. ROSSI:
Adjustment Voucher.
A Yes, sir.
that?
A Yes.
Q And does that mean that the IRS was unable to locate the
30
i
(Witness excused.) THE COURT:
2
Call your next witness. MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I think
3
we have stipulated. I would like to move in 32-C. MR. ROSSI:
4
No objection. THE COURT: Be received in evidence.
5
(Government Exhibit 3 2-C was received in
6
7 evidence.) THE COURT: You may step down.
10 !! cover.)
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 29 of 187
31
THE COURT: Call your next witness. MR. MARKHAM: Your Honor,
Whereupon
DIRECT
Q Would you state your full name for the record and
o.
Ms. Cowdery?
A That's fine.
Labor Committees?
A Yes, I was.
Q From about 1930 on, what was your function for the
organization?
32
1
Services, which is a type-setting and pre-press company.
2
Q And was that company operated by members of the
3
National Caucus of Labor Committees?
4
A Yes, it was.
S
Q In addition to working for this type-setting company
6
did you have another function for the organization?
7
A I had several things; one of the things is I worked
8
very much with a music group, teaching, whatever, and like
9
most people I also did some fundraising and other things, but
10
most of it was with World Comp.
II
Q Now you said you did music work.
12
A That's right.
13
Q Did you ever perform music concerts?
!4
A Yes, I did.
15
Q Who did you perform them for?
16
A For the public and also for the LaRouches themselves
17
Q By the LaRouches, who do you mean?
18
A Lyn and Helga.
19
Q How many times did you give a musical performance
20
for Mr. and Mrs. LaRouche?
21
A Just themselves?
22
Q Yes.
23
A I would .'say at least two dozen times.
24
Q And when you performed music for the LaRouches
25
just themselves, did you do it, where you were the only
33
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 31 of 187
musician or were you with other people who were also doing
music?
BY MR. MARKHAM:
Committee members?
A No.
Q How was it that you got from the city in which you
that.
A The organization.
34
another to perform for Mr. and Mrs. LaRouche when the organi-
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 32 of 187
and 12 times.
where you traveled in from another city, where was it that you
A Yes.
part of 1984?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever while you were in New York attend any
daily briefings?
A Yes, I did.
A Yes, I did.
35
this meeting?
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 33 of 187
A Yes, he was.
shows.
9:00 a.m.
A Yes, I do.
A One of the people form the phone team said that they
A Yes, I do.
concern?
that was going to lose the election, and that people had to
realize that it was not their job to worry about how the money
36
money.
this conversation, did you ever have, were you ever present
A Yes, I was.
September of '34.
0 What city?
A Leesburg.
concert.
talking about?
37
A Yes.
Q For them?
A That's right.
A Y*es , we did.
Q How many people came down for that concert for the
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 35 of 187
LaRouches?
A That's right.
the concert?
A It was after.
Q And what was it that was said first when this subject of
meeting said that, but do you realize with the amount of work
that we have to do, we can't prepare music this way, that Will
rehearsals. The hours that people are working, they are being
38
Q Working at what?
A At fundraising.
A Yes, he did.
time?
make a response?
A Yes, he did.
A Yes, he did.
39
4 since they joined the organization and that their job now was
s
to raise money so that he, LaRouche, could implement the
7 members and even members of the NEC would not know exactly
8 what those plans were but that he needed the money to do it.
9 Q Was this at the same conversation when the concerns
13 A Yes, it was.
16 A Yes, I did.
.17 Q What?
20 for?
22 guests that they had in the house as well as people who were
40
Every day.
mean the time I was there we used like boned chicken breast and
with the dry food because the food couldn't be too dry for the
dogs.
A Everyday.
Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. LaRouche about
Ibykus Farm?
A Yes, I did.
A Well, the first one was the first time I got there,
are you? How do you like our house? Isn't it beautiful?" Q Now
--
41
BY MR. MARKHAM:
A Yes.
Q What is it?
the jury can see because I am going to ask you some questions
A That's right.
A Yes, I did.
42
needs to keep busy, you know. She can't leave the grounds."
43
1
A There were a couple of times when I was cooking in
2
the kitchen when she wanted to be alone in the kitchen and
3
she said, "This is my kitchen. Please get out." To me, she
4
also complained that people, members of the organization,
5
would come —
6
7
MR. REILLY: Objection, Your Honor. Hearsay
8 grounds.
lJ
MR. GETTINGS: Also unresponsive, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Objection overruled.
II
THE WITNESS: She also complained to me that when
12
members of the organization came to the house, they thought
13
it was their house, but in fact it was her house; and she
14
objected to the way in which they behaved while they were in
IS
her house. BY MR. MARKHAM:
16
Q How many times did you see her giving instructions to
17
maids about where to clean up? A I —
18
19
20 MR. MOFFITT: Objection. There has been no founda-
2!
tion.
22
MR. MARKHAM: I will lay a foundation.
23
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 41 of 187
24 BY MR. MARKHAM:
44
A Yes. Absolutely.
Q How frequently?
food.
A Approximately, yes.
A Never.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 42 of 187
Ibykus?
45
1
Q Did you ever observe anyone going to Ibykus without an
2
invitation from Lyn and Helga? A No.
3
MR. ANDERSON: Objection, Your Honor. It's
4
impossible for anyone to testify to that.
19
A Yes.
20
Q We have had a chance to meet before, haven't we?
21
A That's correct.
22
23
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 43 of 187
24
25
46
5 during the time that you were a member of the NCLC; isn't
6 that right?
11 A Yes, I do.
17 every night?
the organization?
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 44 of 187
47
I
A No. The focus was really working at World Comp.
2
Q But in terms of your activities as an NCLC member,
3
didn't you spend most of your time involved in musical
A
activities of the organization?
5
A No.
6
7 Q Other than your day-to-day work.
15 graphics.
16 Q But other than that, what you did during the day,
19 A Yes.
21 A That's right.
23 A That's correct.
48
dispute?
the disagreement.
make a point?
hyperbole.
organization.
49
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 46 of 187
correct?
A That's correct.
A That's correct.
A Um hum.
should do.
50
A No.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 47 of 187
A Well — (pause)
A That's correct.
A That's correct.
much as possible. I would not say that that was one of the
51
A That's correct.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 48 of 187
A That's true.
A Yes.
A Yes.
overnight?
A That's correct.
52
restaurants in Leesburg.
A That's right.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 49 of 187
BY MR. MOFFITT:
Q Hello, ma'am.
A Hello.
Pat Myer.
A Absolutely, yes.
talked about. Let's talk about the one where you said Kathy
53
10 A No.
II Q And —
19 Mrs. LaRouche, who else was present when those comments were
20
made?
21
A Other people who were doing cooking.
22
Q Can you name some of them?
23
A I am trying to remember her name. She was a German
24
member. I can't remember her name at this moment.
25
Q Did you discuss her comments?
A No.
54
anybody?
Ulricka (phonetic).
Q Ulricka what?
said to me, "Yes, it's very difficult for Helga because you
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 51 of 187
know she does have all these people going through her
house all the time. It's not -- it doesn't feel like her
house."
were doing.
A That's correct.
A Yes.
55
dignitaries did.
house?
know --
them?
times when I was cooking at the house, I saw guest lists that
56
I mean they were her guests. People didn't just come. You
A By hand, generally.
A No, I wasn't.
A That's correct.
there were not concerts just for Mr. and Mrs. LaRouche?
A That's correct.
57
Q Two dozen?
A At least, yes.
Q And you and several other people came in; and was
about ,84-'85.
Q To when, ma'am?
A To '36.
Q To '86?
members there.
Q Other members.
53
J Q I see. Were there any other members who were not involved
2
in playing the music?
3
A There would be spouses of the people who were there
4
Q And who else? Any other members?
5
A The security people if they were around, people who might
6
be cooking in the kitchen or something like that.
7
Q No one else?
8 A No.
9
MR. MOFFITT: I have no further questions. MR. CLARK:
10
Very briefly. Your Honor. THE COURT: Yes, sir. BY MR.
II
CLARK:
12
Q Hello, Ms. Cowdery. My name is Jim Clark. I
13
represent Mike Billington.
14
I just want to clarify one thing if I might. You have
15
referred to perhaps a dozen concerts. I think that was your word.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 55 of 187
16 A Urn hum.
IK A Urn hum.
21 A Urn hum.
23 what these, what you call concerts were all about, were
24
25
59
they?
time these concerts — now I've used the word — these evenings
A Yes.
60
15 guess.
17 involved look at the nice house, look at the nice pool? You
18 remember that?
20 had heard that there was a new house and we were all really
61
beautiful.
like pools.
remembered that.
A Patty Myers.
62
A Urn hum.
Q Have you seen — when was the last time you saw that
letter?
Patty?
Q No. I said are you certain? You said it's the only| one
you wrote. My question is are you certain it's the only one
you wrote?
her one letter and I have written her several cards and
63
A Yes.
Q Absolutely certain?
A Yes.
married to?
A Dave Goldman?
Q Um hum.
divorce.
or didn't you?
at my nice swimming pool but you don't know whether you wrote
64
BY MR. ANDERSON:
you —
organization,
65
Q A letter?
Q Now,, what about did you sent any other -- let's clear
A Mike Minnicino?
Q Yes.
66
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 62 of 187
1 out.
2 Q No, my question was whether you remembered what you
3 said.
4 A I am trying to —
10 Your Honor. I asked her if she did, if sh& remembered what she
11 wrote. Now the next question I will put to her will be what
14 all right.
16 BY MR. ANDERSON:
IS Yes.
21 since I hold Lyn and Helga and many of their ideas in the
22 highest regard."
25
67'
68
A Yes,
A That's correct.
was it?
A That's correct.
A Yes.
A Um hum.
69
1
piano as their means of expression?
2
A Um hum.
3
Q And in fact your husband played the — prior husban --
4
played the harpsichord, did he not?
S
A That's true-
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 65 of 187
8 A Yes.
II A That's correct.
17 was to give, among others, was to have a location which was within
20
24 house?
25
A I would call it a living room with a piano in it.
70
there?
A That's right.
true?
for these various performances, you would put out, but other
than that, the rooia normally was a piano with two couches
things.
A That's correct.
arts?
people.
71-
6 of people?
7 A That's right.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 67 of 187
13 performed.
14 A Yes.
17 A That's correct.
72'
true.
A No.
73
it was —
BY MR. ANDERSON:
you —
A Absolutely.
74
and you resented the fact that there was .some downplaying of
A That's correct.
A It's possible.
did.
you?
A I am a happy person.
75
I am here.
to testify?
A No, I haven't.
A Yes.
those regions?
A Um hum.
the country had their own cultural events, their own poetry
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 71 of 187
whatever?
A Yes.
76
Committees?
of theirs.
A Yes.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 72 of 187
events?
A That's true,
77
A That's right.
from security?
arrangements he had.
A That's correct,
A Um hum.
A That's correct.
78
A Yes.
Q So you didn't say — you didn't tell this jury on
came to the house and acted like it was their own house
79
BY MR. ANDERSON:
not?
A Yes, he did.
A Yes.
context of a coordinator?
A Yes.
A Yes.
80
of tuning?
A Yes.
A Yes, absolutely.
A Yes .
Q Who is she?
of Italy,
true?
81
1
being the development of a thesis, a musical thesis, if you
2
will? Isn't that right?
3
A Yes.
4
Q In fact, Mr. LaRouche did everything he could do in that
5
context to develop not only his thesis but the general thesis
6
for the rest of the community?
7
A That's true, yes.
8
Q Now, you mentioned that all cultural activities ceased.
9
Isn't it a fact that when you left, in fact the night you left,
10
that you were right in the middle of a major cultural activity?
II
MR. MARKHAM: Objection, Your Honor. Misstates her
12
testimony. She didn't say all cultural events ceased. She said
13
they ceased for certain members.
14
THE COURT: Objection overruled. BY
15
MR. ANDERSON:
16
Q Isn't it a fact that you left in the middle of a major
17
cultural presentation?
18
A It was right after the conference where we had
19
20
performed a major piece. Is that what you mean?
21
presentation?
82
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 77 of 187
A Yes.
it?
the whole chorus and the whole orchestra was to have those
A They lived all over the country and all over the
world.
83
A Leesburg.
region, do you?
84
country, do you?
Q Is it prescience?
yes.
A No.
A Yes.
85
conduct?
A That's correct.
A Absolutely not.
and see how they were. They said since you are leaving the
86
time from your departure until the time you heard he left the
organization?
A No.
about it?
that period.
87
Yes.
please.
88
Wertz.
years?
that fair?
were some people that were heavier into the cultural side of
89
like some people were more into FEF, the Fusion Energy
it?
interested in and —
A That's correct.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 84 of 187
end of it?
and
90
the beginning of 1984 was when there were big changes when
Will Wertz came into the national center. At that point when
Q Okay.
A Yes.
A Yes.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 85 of 187
A Yes.
91
A Yes.
event impinged on the cultural side of it, and you saw Will
at the time, and some other fundraisers were also going but
some others weren't going, and Will stepped in and said that
A No.
orchestral concert.
Q Yes.
money had not been raised, Will said nobody could go to the
World Comp and I could have gone, but did not go because my
92
the time?
A Yes.
A No.
about it.
93
poems?
A Yes.
was he not?
A Yes, he was.
the translating?
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 88 of 187
people who were translating, Will and Dave were two of the
94
they?
yes.
A That's correct.
York City.
25 Q Right.
95
Q Your duties every morning took you down, did they not,
headquarters?
A That's correct.
what had you there at the time that you went to one of these
A That's right.
A That's correct.
96
Magraw.
testimony.
Whereupon
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ROBINSON:
Labor Committees?
A Yes, I am.
97
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 91 of 187
A Yes, I do.
Labor Committee?
Committees.
security?
98
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 92 of 187
A Yes, I have.
1983.
correct?
A That's correct.
for?
area.
Q You say a safe house, but there were actually two,
weren't there?
A Yes.
99
A That's correct.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 93 of 187
know where the money comes from that goes into that account?
A That's correct.
behalf of?
wife.
100
here in Virginia, which we will get back to, did you have an
A Yes, I did.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 94 of 187
personal purposes?
amount of money that was used for training purposes for this
101
guests who were on the premises of the safe house, this sort
of thing.
who had come over from Europe or from Latin America. There
Q Farms?
for the moment up to the period of time when you were in New
York and using your Chemical Bank account. Are you saying —
A I misunderstood you.
102
be possible.
103
reimbursement for stuff that was on the road, but while we were
Hospital?
9 A It's possible.
10
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 97 of 187
12 Q whose pet?
16 Q When you wrote such checks, did you keep track of,
17 to use that example again, whose pet was being taken care of?
be used for.
21 check?
25
didn't, right?
104
counts.
defendants.
case.
105
Q What did you do with the cash that you took out of
was I believe in '82 and '83 had been invited by Indian Prime
would have been — it would have been done — the records for
106
this point I don't recall what the money was used for
other people in the finance office what the money was spent
for.
LaRouche?
Mr. Robinson?
107
jury is so instructed.
BY MR. ROBINSON:
tures?
Kathy.
108
myself.
purposes?
is that right?
that right?
that.
Q Did you?
109
1 believe that I ever paid for any medical expenses to the best
2 of ray recollection.
be
13 BY MR. ROBINSON;
16 injury.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Would the Court bear with me for just IS a moment.
110
been made?
A No,
Ill
right?
A That's correct.
A That's correct.
A Yes.
that right?
relevant records.
people?
112
other people?
A I may have.
— go ahead.
that?
house with security funds was to make sure that Mr. LaRouche
113
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 106 of 187
like that.
wife?
A No.
Q Is that all?
Q Is that all?
A No.
A Yes.
114
A No.
going on —
Q Who?
Q How about his wife, did you get complaints from her?|
A Not particularly.
Q Go ahead.
appearances.
you may.
115
BY MR. ROBINSON:
said you got complaints from some people, I asked if you got
television interviews, so --
Brothers clothing.
22
23
24
25
116
A That's correct.
closet and I took them with the new pair of trousers to the
tailor and I told them to make them the same length. BY MR.
ROBINSON:
118
ROBINSON:
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 110 of 187
am trying to explain.
119
gift for Mr. LaRouche to give to his wife, what would you do
some occasions.
later on.
Q Were you asked this question and did you give this
120
A I have on occasion.
specific incident.
Q Were you asked this question and did you give this
answer: "And how would that come about? I mean I presume you
121
BY MR. ROBINSON:
A Yes.
ever paying any medical bills for Mr. LaRouche; is that right?)
"Yes."
had one girl who had a car accident. We had to take care of
that." Et cetera.
Mr. LaRouche?
122
1 Q Anything else?
s Q Anything else?
9 A Yes.
16 who --
21 Q So that's —
123
A That's correct.
body other than you that you know of that buys personal items
account like you have got that is used for purchasing things
isn't it?
A On occasion, yes.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 115 of 187
124
frequency.
trimmed up.
purchased, yes.
for him?
1'2 5
126
AFTERNOON SESSION
Thursday, December 1,
1988 2:30 o'clock
p.m.
reported as follows:)
asked from 1982 to 1987, what did you do? Create that kind of
be separated.
127
sure that when Mr. Moffitt makes that motion it's also
it.
128
held:)
like, but it's a right long afternoon from 1:00 to 6:00. All
right.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOFFITT:
Yes, I do.
129
5 through this witness, but warn defense counsel that I am only going
23
24
25
130
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 121 of 187
5 was people who are out promoting their ideas on the street
8 situation.
10 A Yes.
12 A That's correct.
131
You said that you traveled, and part of the security was
say?
A That's correct.
A Yes.
Argentina?
A Yes, I do.
A Yes.
Alfoncin and also met with a series of labor leaders from the
Peronist movement.
that month?
132
to, yes.
133
1
answer them in any kind of specific fashion, particularly
2
without any documents.
3
Q It that the only reason?
4
A Well/ in that context, I felt that in a certain sense
s
that I felt like I was being tricked into saying something
6
that wouldn't accurately reflect a series of things that
7
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 124 of 187
time, I believe.
!2
A That's correct.
15
134
A That's correct.
basically the same as they were during the later period once
New Hampshire.
point in time when Mr. LaRouche was living in New York City
A Yes.
of our own security people that were from the security staff
that I was part of. We had a group of retired New York City
135
people on day shift and maybe a few less on night shift, give
or take a few.
security?
had people outside, yes. We did have people all the time, but
Department.
that right?
case.
136
entrance.
3
5
security was located?
6
A Yes.
7
Q And persons who entered were screened?
9 wrought iron chain door — wrought iron fence-type door that you
to could visibly see plus we had some camera equipment and so on.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 127 of 187
18 Q Now, at such time — where did the security eat when they
19 were there?
23 shifts.
25
137
a security function?
133
A Yes.
A Yes.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 129 of 187
A That's correct.
A That was what I, to the extent that I had any say in this,
I would push for that, because it just made it much simpler for
us.
139
25
people or writing in his study.
140
1
Q Is it difficult to quantify because of time or
2
because there was no absolute fixed routine?
3
141
A No.
2
Q Did he have a regular time that he went to bed every night?
3
A No. In fact, he would, once he got working on a project
4
on a particular program or something that he was writing,
5
sometimes he would work for 24 hours straight.
6
Q I take it — strike that — how often did Mr. LaRouche
7
have an opportunity to go out and take a walk?
8
A In New York City, as a separate activity, I can't think
9
of one time.
10
Q How often at that time did he have an opportunity to go out
I!
to some public event that was not an event of the National Caucus
12
of Labor Committees in a secure situation, to go to the opera, for
13
example?
14
A Never.
15
Q To go to the symphony?
16
A He never went.
17
Q To go to the ballet?
18 ]
A Never.
Q
20 Q To go to a movie?
23 A Never,
24 Q During the entire time you have known Mr. LaRouche, how
142
hasn't worked ever in the entire time that you have known him?
television?
A I believe so.
143
right?
A That's correct.
C. metropolitan area.
144
17 A Yes.
145
Mr. Goldstein.
yours?
Q Your bosses?
A Bosses.
A That's correct.
A Yes.
A That's correct.,
A That's correct.
146
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 136 of 187
A Yes.
that we could have guests come and either because they needed
A Very small.
groups whatsoever?
147
A That's correct.
A That's true.
148
I
point in time I bought a number of books that were used source
2
books that were basically like works of Lincoln, works of
3
Franklin, works of Washington, that I had gotten from a used
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 138 of 187
A Yes.
12
A Yes.
16
Q Did other people use — is there a single room within
17
that house that was reserved say exclusively for the use of
IS
Lyndon LaRouche? Let me rephrase that. Isn't it fair to say
19
that only his bedroom in that house was a room reserved
20
exclusively for the use of Mr. LaRouche?
21
A There was a bodroom and there was a study.
22
Q The study is where he did his work?
23
A That's correct.
24
Q Now, moving on, you moved from Woodburn to what's
25
149
10 so close that anybody who wanted to come by and gawk and look
17 reason was that there was, at Ibykus Farm, there were other
150
1 purposes.
[2 guaranteed you would have later on if you had to move, but you
13
might not even be able to get the permission to do it in the
14
the NCLC.
151
1
of the types of meetings that you have previously described
2
as having taken place at Sutton Place and in Woodburn con-
3
tinued on an even expanded basis once you were located at
4
Ibykus?
S
A Yes. Once we were at Ibykus it was much easier to hold
6
meetings, botli of a small and large area, because we could
7
control the entire environment that we were operating in
8
9 Q Now, did Mr. LaRouche — strike that.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 141 of 187
20
Caucus of Labor Committees other than those we have already
22 people to ride?
25 example.
152
Magraw, that you would in the context of the time that you
A Yes.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 142 of 187
A Yes.
153
A That's correct.
time?
A Yes.
14 a day.
16 New York?
23 A Yes.
154
3 credit card expenditures were much easier to deal with, much more
4 obvious.
s
Q But isn't it true that even on your credit card expenses,
6 that you or she sitting with you would go through them and in
16 MR. ANDERSON:
19 A Yes.
20 Q Now, what's the top? Have you seen it? Do you recognize
2! it?
25 there not?
155
3 that case — A
Yes.
7 A Yes.
9 A That's correct.
11 by the way? What was the expense and what was the amount?
18 you know — it there something that helps you know that that
21 and —
23 A It's in September.
25 A End of August.
Ibb
Mr. LaRouche?
for it?
A Yes.
A On which page?
writing.
the expense?
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 146 of 187
A That's correct.
157
with Kathy?
expense?
A No.
158
A No.
wife going over those records after the fact in order to let
took care of anybody that was within the safe house area,
either paid for a doctor or in some way took Helga for some
159
snow and badly wrenched her knee, and we had to take her to
A Yes.
A No.
A That's correct.
calculations?
more than one gift for Mr. LaRouche to give to his wife, but
you over the course of the years that you were in this
capacity that you are in, but you don't remember anything
would have done that kind of thing, but I don't have any-
160
A NO.
A No.
A NO.
Q Did you ever buy her any diamonds, rubies?
A No.
Q Sapphires?
A No.
A No.
Q What was the, in terms .of what — if you would have
done, which was the method, if you might have done this, what
might have been the price category that you would have
Is
161
1 that right?
3 him now or what? I don't know what the reference to the Grand Jury
8 Honor, not a question I asked here about a specific entry THE COURT:
n ask him about, but he did ask the question and received the
14 witness.
16 MR. ANDERSON:
23
24
25
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 151 of 187
162
1
Q A horse brooch. And you purchased that at Lee
2 Cross Jewelers?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q In fact was that gift ever given to LaRouche, or to
5 Helga to give to -- I mean, given to Helga or to Mr.
6 LaRouche to give to her?
7 A It was not — it was returned, number one, and
8 secondly, it was never even shown to Mr. LaRouche is my
9 recollection.
10 Q So it was returned. What happened when it was
11 returned?
12 THE COURT: I thought we went through this with
13 Mrs. Magraw yesterday.
14 MR. ANDERSON: Well, she said if you will recall,
\5
Your Honor, my memory is that she only had secondhand know-
16
ledge of it, that it was Mr. Magraw who handled it, that she
17
could only judge from the record that she was shown. So I
18
would like to have the jury hear it from the person who was
19
involved in the transaction.
20
THE COURT: Well, it's been heard, but whether you
21
want to have it heard twice is up to you. BY MR. ANDERSON:
22
Q In fact that item never transpired, did it?
23
A No. I returned it on the 19th of December, I recall
24
MR. ANDERSON: Could I ask that Mr. Magraw be shown
25
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 152 of 187
163
A Yes.
Q And —
the —
was from Europe, had been there for some period of time. She
was away from home for Christmas. Her husband wasn't there.
164
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 153 of 187
A No.
A No.
A NO.
A No knowledge of it.
year.
1G5
3 say that the reason you bought those suits was because to
4 some degreer you and others who worked with Mr. LaRouche
13 A No.
IS A Yes, I have,
16'6
Pacific?
A No.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 155 of 187
A No.
A No.
haircusts — would you give the jury your best estimate over the
Q How much?
regard to the totality of those expenses over the years with any
records?
167
Government?
proceedings)
A In Manchester, yes.
A Yes.
Hampshire campaign?
where he is residing?
168
A Yes.
street.
mately half the average year, Mr. LaRouche was out of the
A Yes.
that over, if you take the entire stretch, maybe half as much
169
traveling or in Germany?
A Yes.
lived?
A That's correct.
A Yes.
Staadiken (phonetic).
170
Hellenbroish (phonetic).
Committee?
A Yes.
there?
A That's correct.
as he has here?
A Same activity.
A NO.
171
12 A NO.
14 A Wo Lincolns.
22 law enforcement.
it?
172
A Yes.
3 officials?
4 A Yes.
17 office.
23 reported as follows:)
moments
173
get those.
the expenses that are run through the security account, the
1'74
issue here. The taxable income we have been talk ing about is the
But you are right, we haven't been asserting that. The security
LaRouche is also charged with a fraud count. The problem with this
and not that this was some frivolous exercise of a bunch of nuts
draw the conclusion that no, that it was not a reasonable course
175
Bench.
been repaying --
of
176
paying loans.
through that total number and several times we got the total
case.
held:)
177
through 3 2.
A That's correct.
otherwise?
those trips, where you went and what the purpose was.
kinds of
Q Where did you go and who did you meet? Where did
178
underdeveloped South.
twice.
views to these
179
A Yes.
180
H. LaRoucher Jr.?
at that time and you said there were meetings every night at
will.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 169 of 187
181
A Yes.
saying?
Committees, right?
182
day?
is my understanding, yes.
A That's true.
183
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 171 of 187
correct?
A That is correct.
A Yes.
sense.
correct?
A That's my understanding.
page 76, you were asked — were you asked the following
questions and did you give the following answers - Line 14.
184
A Yes.
said that even though you know it wasn't owned by any of the
right?
1*8 5
know that house wasn't owned by any of the members of the National
A Yes.
inappropriate,
BY MR. ROBINSON:
A Yes.
A Yes.
186
location?
right?
Q Now —
that.
A That's correct.
A Yes.
187
Mrs. LaRouche are in town, isn't it true that they are the
you hold up the picture there so the jury can see it, and —
have shown this. It's not going to look any different than
the last time it was held up. I will stipulate it's the same
witness that Mr. LaRouche only used one room in this house,
any more.
188
1 THE COURT: The jury will have it when they get the
2 case.
3 BY MR. ROBINSON:
11 portion?
16 BY MR. ROBINSON;
18 didn't see that used for any business purposes, did you?
19 A No.
22 A That's correct.
24 "A No.
189
yes .
mentioned briefly, do you know how much money was put into
A Yes.
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 177 of 187
A Yes.
right?
A Um hum, yes.
A Yes.
is
190
that right?
A That's correct.
correct?
A Yes.
A No.
guests who were staying with us, and some of these people had
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 178 of 187
191
was.
A Um hum.
itself?
house-
192
A That's correct.,
guests, that's all you thought you had to do, is that what
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 180 of 187
time.
193
Q All right.
and when she would, I had — prior to the Grand Jury testimony
in August of '87 and July of '88, I had — these are not the
right?
A That's correct.
Q $15,000.
A That's my recollection.
Q This checking account that you maintained and the
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 181 of 187
tions?
194
is you can't travel unless you use a lot of credit cards, not
receipt, you could just get the bill at the end of the month
195
3 They are not simply limited to travel, but they give you a
department store?
10 this point.
13 Your Honor?
22 RECROSS EXAMINATION
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 183 of 187
23 BY MR. ANDERSON:
196
Q He is no longer in security —
recross.
swimming pool.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
swim?
197
A That's correct.
A Yes.
swimming pool?
A No.
Q Never once?
A Not once.
1-98
(Witness excused)
was concluded.)
« « «
* * »
Testimony of Richard MaGraw et al.pdf Page 186 of 187
119
COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA )
) ss, CITY OF
ALEXANDRIA )
proceedings;
herein.
Commonwealth of Virginia.
A * *