Walter Ogris Conducts a Personal Interview with Emil Stejnar

The following are excerpts from an interview with Emil Stejnar in the winter of
2008 for the
Archive of Hermetic Texts

(translatet by Eva and Bill Cranstoun)

Ogris: Something sensational has happened. Your books are now available in
bookstores. Everyone can now order your books on the internet whereas until
recently they were only accessible to a small chosen circle of friends. Why have
you changed your mind on this?

Stejnar: Actually a charlatan is to blame for this. He had copied 25 pages, “The
Ritual of the Hermetic Four” from my fifth volume in the series The Books of the
Master, and had then published it in a completely different context. The author,
who is wholly untrained in Hermetic Science apologized, explaining that he had
believed that the text came from Dr Franz Sättler. The publisher responsible for
this nonsense book stopped sales immediately after notice from my lawyer. But
a large number of copies were already in stores. That Divine Providence
allowed this profanation shows that the time for keeping secrets is passed. Its
not only my opinion, but the whole world has changed. The material world as
well as the subtle world are in the process of radical change. And these
changes are only the first of the beginning of a transformation of the whole
spiritual structure that we are embedded in. About five hundred years ago
Martin Luther tried to reform a degenerated religion and he failed miserably.
Then came the so called Age of Enlightenment. Spiritually opened minded
people wanted to reign in the power of the church and of superstition. But that
also had not worked. The influence of religious fanatics is bigger today than
ever before. Islamic fundamentalists, Orthodox evangelists, and pseudo
esoteric sects are still dumbing down humanity, influencing politics and making
the world insecure. The baby has been thrown out with the bathwater, the spirit
thrown out with the clerics. Science and technology have not been able to make
mankind content in its need to believe in higher powers. The hope for a better
world in the beyond and questions about the meaning of life are still with us.
And unfortunately also the conflict between religions is still a factor which is
really not a fight between religions but between the world view, the time spirit, of
the middle ages and and that of modern times. We need a new Age of
Enlightenment.

Ogris: And you believe that a magical world view can solve the problem? That
it could trigger a cultural revolution of faith?

Stejnar: Not only science but also esotericism has developed. Out of simple
forms of belief we now have the knowledge of working with the spirit.
Enlightenment concerns itself not with faith in God and in invisible spirits but
with research into the spirit that lives in every human, the spirit that says of itself
“I Am.” Modern esotericism examines the spirit in a way similar to the way
science examines physical forces, as recognizable only in their effects. None of
our scientists are able to explain what matter is and in spite of that we have
mastered a large part of the material world. We know about the energies within
matter, electricity, magnetism, and atomic power and we work with them. We
use the effects of the substances around us in an exact way but we don't know
the origins of the world and what holds it together It is exactly the same with the
spirit. We know nothing of the spirit either, but in spite of that, the spirit
determines our existence. We are spirit and embedded in a spiritual world of
which we continually sense certain effects, but most of us are totally unaware of
this. We are moved by feelings, hold true what we believe, and fight with our will
against invisible forces that lead us to binge, smoke and drink, that appear to be
a part of ourselves. Even though one knows it is caused by hormones,
messenger substances and electrical activities of the brain cells and the
synapses, it doesn't explain how one, meaning the spirit with its creative power,
faith, and capacity for imagination, can do the same thing. That has been
scientifically proven. Think about the excretion of hormones with certain
thoughts or the placebo effect, or the control of prosthetic limbs with thoughts.
There are fully paralyzed people
who can move a cursor around a monitor with their thoughts. Magic-mysticism
is the science of working with the spirit. What religion has not been able to
accomplish over thousands of years can be accomplished with esotericism. The
ideas of faith and
dogmas of the religions have not made the world a better place, just the
opposite, they have only brought us wars. The character of the individual has
not improved thereby. Esoteric, and I don't mean the pseudo-esoteric that our
gurus are spreading, but the Magic and Mystic of the Third Millennium, which I
describe in my ten volumes, is a science that in fact teaches responsibility for
oneself. This paradigm which follows the way Franz Bardon describes,
promises, not only that consciousness without a body is possible, but also
shows ways to experience it already during one's lifetime. And it makes it clear
that the quality of life in a state without a body is dependent on personal
character.

Ogris: How so?

Stejnar: Now think about it, what part of you can survive death. Which part of
you is immaterial? What is the spirit that carries your consciousness? Take
everything away from you that is material. What do you have left? What is left of
a human being when he dies?

Ogris: Thoughts, feelings and possibly also some desires, so our inner world is
left of us. And also naturally our will and power of imagination with which we
can control our thinking, feeling and cravings. But who is able to do that?

Stejnar: Right. We know that from experiences outside the body that it is not so
easy. What is left over of us after death is at best is a state of consciousness
that corresponds to the world of dreams. As soon as we loose the
consciousness of the body, our inner world becomes our outer world. Our
research has shown that in a bodiless state we meet in fact, similar to the world
of dreams, our ideas, feelings and inner desires as an environment in the form
of landscapes and beings. Egoistic desires can manifest in our personal “soul
garden” in the in between realm to the spiritual plane, as dark threatening
opposing powers, whereas empathy can manifest as friends and helping lights
forms. Your character determines your Being after death.

Ogris: Now I understand what you mean. When what is normally experienced
as an inner world appears in a bodiless state as an outer world, then it is not
unimportant which thoughts and feelings one cultivates. The elements of a
lousy character will be met by a lousy environment. The social values of
our ideals: Truth, righteousness, and compassion are therefore qualities of our
personal spiritual structure which also determine our own condition. With that,
virtue, morality and spiritual schooling receive new meaning. Its not about being
good, or pleasing to God, but to form ourselves into a new being so that we can
employ our spirit correctly. If the thoughts and feelings are the molecules of the
spirit, then we must control these if we want to use our spiritual limbs. So you
want to replace religion with esotericism?

Stejnar: No just the opposite. Whoever needs to use religion as a crutch is not
ready for the independent work with the spirit. But I will show that every religion
has its esoteric side. The Jews have their Quabbalah, the Muslims have their
Sufis, and also Christianity has its esoteric, I describe
this hidden magic and mysticism in my book “Exerzitien für
Freimaurer.”(Exercises of the Freemasons). What the Freemasons expressed
as the four elements is symbolized in the Christian cross. The four beams on
which the divine spirit is fastened, are for the human spirit the four
tendencies of his thinking, feeling, willing and being, that pull him in different
directions and hold him imprisoned in one sided opinions, feelings, greed and
habits, unless he controls them from his spiritual center. Christ is for a Christian
esoteric student a symbol for the true I, the true self, that awakes as soon as he
becomes conscious of his own spiritual being. The spirit at first feels helpless-
like a child in a manger between the animals (the desires of the body and
primitive egoistic impulses), against which he must assert his authority. This self
discovery of the spirit is only possible through the four elements, through a
human incarnation in which the four tendencies are joined to form a new unity.
That is the secret message of the birth in the manger, the death on the cross
and the resurrection. The Jesuits taught a focused magical, mystical schooling
of the spirit that wholly follows the rules of the Hermetic tradition. You find there
next to a hard schooling of the will, concentration and imagination
exercises for all of the senses – just like Bardon also describes. Also God had
actually taught Moses these exercises for awakening. As he asked his God for
his name, God said “I Am the I Am.” And Christ reprimanded the Apostle Peter
because he had fallen asleep and had forgotten him. Now you
know right, how often during the day we fall asleep and forget our inner Christ,
one could also say boss to that, so one forgets that one is a spiritual being
within a body. In the idea I Am one will awaken and overcome death. The
Jesuits were familiar with this Mystery that everyone carries within themselves
and they knew the Magic of Thinking.

Ogris: No wonder then that this order was so successful.

Stejnar: Earlier yes. Now it is different. No one does the exercises anymore
that were prescribed. It is the same with the Bardon readers. Or do you know
some who really do the exercises?

Ogris: Certainly. At least for a while or now and then. You yourself are against
practicing fanatically. But I also know people who ask themselves what purpose
the schooling of the spirit actually serves. The latest findings of neurology and
brain research compare humans to remote control machines. The whole
character, the predispositions,characteristics, and faculties are in the opinion of
the neuroscientists, genetically determined. Morality is fixed in a certain region
of the brain. If it doesn't function or is not there, then supposedly the ability to
make moral judgments of behavior is missing.

Stejnar: That could be. If an auto is missing a steering wheel or the brakes it
can't be steered or stopped. But the proper mechanism can be installed and this
can also be done in the brain. Neurological processes can also willingly be
activated and navigated through thinking. The Magic and Mystic of the third
millennium knows about the material self regulating mechanism of nature, but
also about the levers with which, one as a spiritual being can take control.

Ogris: If we want it.

Stejnar: If we want it. But that is the condition for every schooling of the spirit
that we want more than what is assigned to us. That one wants to know more,
wants to be able to do more, wants to gain more than is apparently possible.
That one is prepared to undertake more, than what comes easily. The school of
the spirit is an elite school for people, who are not content to be dominated like
animals are directed by their body and its needs. One can purposefully develop
certain aptitudes and work against characteristics that are not wanted. The root
of violence, morality and decision making are
neurobiologically determined that is clear, since we live in the material plane,
but in spite of the influence of the brain, hormones and astrology, that also plays
a roll, every consciously acting human being has the freedom to do something
or to refrain from acting. You can say yes if your inner impulses urge you to
think something, or desire something or to do something, or you can say no and
refrain from that action.

Ogris: The authority, that is able to say yes or no to something seems to be

missing in most people.

Stejnar: This must become awakened. That happens normally with an initiation
or in that one makes oneself aware of its existence and at the same time
identifies with it. It is also possible to purposefully program a certain area of the
brain that corresponds with the idea “I Am.” You basically install yourself which
is at the same time a spiritual event. Because with the imagination ”I Am” an
elemental will be created which is the only elemental in fact that can carry and
maintain self consciousness. This event, through which one becomes conscious
that one is, and that one is more than the body, more than the thinking, feeling
and emotions, equals an awakening. Whoever observes themselves in their
thinking, feeling and willing and recognizes himself the observer, awakens. He
recognizes himself and knows I am not my thoughts, wishes, desires and
impulses, these are only my limbs and cells of my being, I am that I am, and I
am in the position of being in conscious command of the cells of my being.
Now it is possible to make a personal decision independently of genes,
astrological influences, or other uncontrollable firings of neurons in certain areas
of the brain.

Ogris: Now we are again with your favorite theme, the awakening. But aren't all
ideas, feelings and emotions carriers of consciousness, personal elements of
being that carry consciousness?

Stejnar: Certainly, your thoughts and feelings are a part of you or more
accurately stated a part of your spirit. Without them you would lose
consciousness, and fall into an subconscious “trance.” But, they are not you. Or,
you can identify with the cream pastry, with the cigarette, the rage in your belly,
or with the next trip to foreign lands, only because you have been occupied with
the corresponding idea over time therefore give life to theses things. To be
more exact these ideas don't keep you alive, but
sustain themselves. Even the highest ideals and ideas of faith that fill your spirit
serve themselves, and the ideas that they express, ie. the spirit behind them.
The only idea, behind which your own spirit stands is the thought “I Am.” The
idea “I am” is the only elemental with which you can truly identify. Only the
thought ”I Am” truly expresses that you are, and is in fact a part of you. The
more often you bring this “I Am” elemental into your consciousness the stronger
it becomes, and supports the spirit
through which you can be supported.

Ogris: That means the exercise of being awake is more important than all the
other exercises that Bardon describes.

Stejnar: Yes, at least in the beginning. But the other exercises naturally are of
equal importance. The equilibrium of the elements should always be upheld.
The schooling of the will has only to do with the inner fire and is by the way not
only important on the plane of consciousness in the form of being awake, but is
also of importance on the mental plane in the form of concentration and
imagination and on the astral plane in the form of self control. A powerful spirit
can not develop without these faculties. But without wakefulness the other
faculties have little meaning. That is what I mean. It doesn't lead anywhere if
you live like an ascetic, meditate everyday, and do all sorts of practices, but in
everyday life are rushing around yoked by your duties, and are lead by your
habits like a stressed zombie. The work with the spirit begins with positive
thinking with which we can purposefully create the future, and in the conscious
completion of life's tasks as they present themselves, whereby the power of the
spirit is put on trial in the mastering of everyday problems and relationships
around us. Whoever manages to stay wakeful and calm is already half an
adept. I haven't forgotten about the inquiry about the pentagram ritual that
supposedly Bardon has not described. I will write that down for you, because
there is something important to say in regard to it. The one concerned should in
the meantime meditate on the theme of a pyramid.

Ogris: Why do you still not have an Internet connection or your own
homepage? Otherwise, you are so modern and open minded.
Stejnar: Probably it is my need for quiet and distance. I also have no cell phone
and am only reachable to a small circle of friends. In any case, you keep me
informed, that's enough for now. Here ends the interview.

In addition here are some replies in regard to questions about phenomena

coming up in meditation.
They fit here nicely and possibly interest other practitioners.

Dear Walter,

The following are my thoughts to the phenomenon that Mrs. H. occasionally

experiences.You can forward this letter on to her. It probably it has to do with
effects of incorrect meditation methods. Now and again I get such letters and
one can see how important the books of Franz Bardon are.

All phenomena that appear during, after or in context of spiritual exercises that
are not wished for, show that the subtle body has not been brought under
control. All feelings and sensations that appear of themselves without control,
even if of a pleasant nature are soul, elemental essences and fill the place of
consciousness against the will. So it makes no difference whether these are
pleasant or disturbing experiences. Just as Mrs. H. experiences a comfortable
feeling and harmonious subtle vibration she might soon be experiencing
obtrusive, uncomfortable electrical sensations that won't go away. Next there
appear usually obsessive ideas, fears and disturbances of the psyche. Bardon
urgently warned us about these accompanying manifestations that appear
through one sided or nonsensical spiritual practices that cause the loss of
mental balance. Energies that one senses are never positive. Only those
energies are positive which are purposefully activated by oneself and are then
converted in spiritual, soul or physical work. It doesn't make a difference
whether a thought, feeling or sensation in the form of “energy” is imposed
upon us. Images and visions that one has not called up in oneself, we call
hallucinations and the one concerned is considered crazy. Uncontrolled feelings
and emotions we call hysteria. Unexplainable bodily sensations mean also a
disturbance in consciousness and should be treated.
Bardon states in his instructions very clearly that every quality that one works
with is balanced with the
opposite quality and every created imagination that is imagined is dissolved
before the exercise is brought to an end. If one meditates for example on the air
element in which the qualities of warm, bright, flowing, relaxed, moving etc.
visualized, then one must call up in consciousness, the complimentary qualities
of the earth element. That is true for all forms of meditations and especially for
the type of meditation without a specific content. Meditation places relaxation as
a condition of success and is therefore a one sided exercise. The opposite of
meditation is concentration. Both must be practiced to an equal degree, which is
what most esoteric practitioners don't do. Most sit down, relax, and think of
nothing or devote themselves to their thoughts, which means nothing other than
that they open themselves and lose control over their spirit. It is also not useful
if one “meditates” on an idea or concentrates on a mantra which as a rule one
usually doesn't understand, as in TM. Every meditation causes a state of
consciousness which weakens the I if it is not already firmly established.
Improper meditation always has consequences. Obtrusive images, repressed
feelings and renounced bodily needs, without the one concerned noticing it,
gain power and can appear in other mental layers, becoming noticeable for
example as sensations of energy or the opposite as immobility or tiredness.
Even a positive sensation like the relaxed lightness that arises in meditation can
condense itself into a shadow being, a complex that becomes independent and
then fills our consciousness, in the form of an
uncalled for happy feeling or delusion of enlightenment. Even if these are one's
own soul elements, it becomes a form of possession, that can weaken
consciousness. What can one do against this? The best is to cease with every
form of magic and mystic exercise. The performing of daily duties in everyday
life offers enough possibilities for conscious spirit and soul schooling. Whoever
wants to add meditation to that should keep to the instructions given by Bardon
and instead of insensible meditation practices, practice the exercises from step
one and step two and the techniques of transforming the primal elemental
qualities described in my books. However the most important is that every
exercise, every meditation, every meditative relaxation and opening must be
started and brought to a close in a state of wakefulness with the concentration
on the idea and image of
“I Am”.

There is more to read from this conversation with Emil Stejnar in his book Franz
Bardon, Who Was He, What did He Teach, Where does his Path Lead? ( So far
untranslated)