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Did "Baniya" come from tamil "வண கன்" ?

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முதல் | < முந்ைதய | அடுத்து > | கைடசி 30 இல் 21-30 காட்டப்படுகிறது

20 அக்ேடாபர் (2 நாட்களுக்கு முன்)

20 அக்ேடாபர் (2 நாட்களுக்கு முன்)

Dibya (িদবয্)

@ Rohith:

"baniyA" seems to be a Prakritic development of "vaNik(+ probably some extension like

-aka)", but I understand that is not the main bone of contention. The bone of contention
is the etymology of "vaNij". I really have no idea myself about the etymology. I can only
try to evaluate others' claims.

So far there have been two main claims/suggestions:

1. Prakrit to Sanskrit reborrowing: Vedic vasna > Prakrit *vaN- > reborrowed into
Sanskrit. This has one major problem: I don't see how it explains the ending -ij (neither
can I supply an explanation off the top of my head).

2. Tamil: Somehow from the root "pul". Well, nothing seems to work here, e.g. the p>v
conversion at the word beginning, vowel conversion from u>a. For the related words
quoted like "vaNigan", "vaNicciyam", etc. (sorry, if I misquoted any), they:
- a) Don't analyse the word "vaNij" any farther, nor give any hint to its history.
- b) I can easily see how neatly they are inter-related within Sanskrit grammar (eg.
"vaNik" is the nom. sing. of "vaNij", as, among stops only unaspirated voiceless velar/
retroflex/dental/labial (but NOT palatal) stops are allowed at the end of utterance by
Sanskrit phonology; "vANijya = vaNij + ya" where "ya" is a very common suffix in the
abstract sense of "the property/quality of", etc.) but I am not sure how neat their inter-
relation within Tamil grammar is (k-c alternation, for example, as in "vaNikan" and
"vaNicciyam": is it tenable within Tamil grammar under similar circumstances?)

~~~~

Personally, my impression is neither explanation is good enough, as of now.

20 அக்ேடாபர் (2 நாட்களுக்கு முன்)

Dibya (িদবয্)

On a second thought, my opinion 2(b) above is really irrelevant to the topic at hand, as I
mentioned in 2(a) that those words shed no light on the etymology of vaNij/vaNikan.

-----

@ Megarajan:
It has been an overdue "wish" for myself to really learn Old Tamil (or however you call
it), and at least one modern spoken offspring of it (say, some Tamil dialect or
Malayalam). But bogged down by other priorities, I could never progress beyond a
smattering of beginner's Malayalam, and some study of Krishnamurthi's "Dravidian
Languages". Another overdue wish (which doesn't draw much attention here, but that I
personally consider as much or even more important to me - owing to my Eastern Indian
heritage) is knowledge of an Austro-Asiatic language, like Santhali. Days should have
been 48 hours long.

20 அக்ேடாபர் (2 நாட்களுக்கு முன்)

Karthik

Days should have been 48 hours long

20 அக்ேடாபர் (2 நாட்களுக்கு முன்)

Misanthrope

I would sincerely hope that you gain mastery over tamil to give us more clarity on this
confusion or atleast have a plan to do it in the future.

Dibya, you have a great responsibility (and the consequent blame for anything similar in
the future) on your shoulders.

20 அக்ேடாபர் (2 நாட்களுக்கு முன்)

Rohith

Thanks Dibya

you mentioned that it is claimed as "Prakrit to Sanskrit reborrowing: Vedic vasna >
Prakrit *vaN- > reborrowed into Sanskrit".

However, Vasna was not mentioned in any of the Sanskrit Dictionaries as the source for
Vanij or Vanik (to my knowledge).

According to Apte's dictionary, it is mentioned that the meaning of वस्नम् vasnam is Hire/
wages and its root is वस्-मन् . The meanings of विणजः Vanij / वािणजः vāṇijḥ were mentioned
in it as merchant without giving its root.

But in Monier-Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary, the roots for vaṇija &vāṇija and
Vasna were not given.

How the word Vasnam (hire/wage) relates to Vanija (merchant). Could you substantiate
it?

Why there is no etymological concurrence among nighantukaar/ lexicographers in this

regard (particularly)?
Is there any possible cognate words for Vanij in PIE? Is it mentioned in Dhatu patha?

pls clarify us in this regard. Thanks in advance.

8:03 pm (15 மணிேநரம் முன்பு)

Dibya (িদবয্)

you mentioned that it is claimed as "Prakrit to Sanskrit reborrowing

umm ... I guess there has been some misunderstanding. I didn't say "it is claimed", I
said "it has been claimed", referring only to the suggestion made in this thread.

How the word Vasnam (hire/wage) relates to Vanija (merchant). Could you
substantiate it?

No, I cannot. If I could, I would have supported the "vasna > vaNij" claim!

Why there is no etymological concurrence among nighantukaar/ lexicographers

in this regard (particularly)?

My guess is: because the etymology is not clear to them.

Is there any possible cognate words for Vanij in PIE?

I don't know of any.

Is it mentioned in Dhatu patha?

How can this be in the "Dhatu Patha"? Isn't that a list of verb-roots? Just for info, if
anybody is interested: Dhatu Patha apparently has a root "vaN-", to sound.

====

A couple more counter points for "vasna > vaNij" suggestion via Prakrit:
- "vaNij" seems to have been attested in the Rgveda; so a Prakritic ancestry is very
unlikely.
- In Prakrits the "sn" cluster does not produce a pure nasal, but a nasal followed by a "h"
(or in early Prakrits, "h" followed by nasal), which is not the case here.

9:08 pm (13 மணிேநரம் முன்பு)

Rohith

Thanks Dibya

It is therefore evident that there is no satisfactory/convincing etymological explanation

for Sanskrit claim over Vanij.

We are purposely giving benefit of doubt to Sanskrit only, without evidence/ testing the
veracity of Sanskrit claims. We are deliberately doing injustice to the right one (Sanskrit
too). We are not ready to allow counter claims ab initio.
It is my personal opinion that this kind of favoritism will not good for Linguistic. It should
always be unbiased and impartial. audi alterem partem.