Withering Away of The State - RevLeft

8/3/2014 Withering away of the state?
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22nd July 2014, 23:42
CommunistKid
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Withering away of the state?
As of yet I've agreed with many ideas of marxism, but how does withering away of the state work?
does this mean the end goal of communism is anarchism or am I missing something?
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23rd July 2014, 04:40
tuwix
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In understanding of socialist thinkers, a state is an organization that main objective is to maintain a
private property. Experiences with the Soviet Union and other state capitalist countries indicate that
maintaining a state property can be a main objective too. So if there is no structure to maintain a
private or state property, then there is no state but there is new social organization.
And that almost all anarchists and communists mean as lack of state. But this lack of state never was
to be lack of social care, etc.
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Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
"the system of wage labor is a system of slavery"
Karl Heinrich Marx
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23rd July 2014, 04:57
bropasaran
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It seems that according to marxists the state withers away in some magical way that cannot be
explained except by giving some poetic metaphor, so Trotsky says:
"the road to Socialism lies through a period of the highest possible intensification of the principle of the
State. ... Just as a lamp, before going out, shoots up in a brilliant flame, so the State, before
disappearing, assumes the form of the dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e., the most ruthless form of
State, which embraces the life of the citizens authoritatively in every direction."
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23rd July 2014, 05:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuwix
In understanding of socialist thinkers, a state is an organization that main objective is to
maintain a private property. Experiences with the Soviet Union and other state capitalist
countries indicate that maintaining a state property can be a main objective too. So if there is
no structure to maintain a private or state property, then there is no state but there is new
social organization.
I believe that you simplify this too much. Although it is true that communist and anarchist theory
declares that the main goal of the modern state is to protect private property, the withering away of
the state means more than the end of protection of private property.
Of course there will still be some form of social organization, but not like the modern state that we
know today.
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23rd July 2014, 05:31
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I've always wondered exactly what this withering away stuff meant myself. Like, how does that work?
I mean, granted, "future hypothetical situations, who knows," but at the same time if you have a
system premised upon heavy handiness, corruption, privileges and so on, what one day is it just like
"ok guys party's over, literally, time to slink away into mediocrity now, fun while it lasted," or
something?
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23rd July 2014, 09:33
Farseer
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Okay so I'm on vacation and don't have my sources at hand but I'll try my best with a quick reply.
According to Marxist theory, the state is the product of class struggle, where one class tries to
surpress the other. This takes form in the Police, Army, taxes etc. The big idea here is that when
there are no more classes, there is no more struggle and as such the intitutes of the state lack a
purpose to fullfil and will 'wither away' as a result.
This can be interpreted on a number of ways. For example Lenin mentions this in The State and
Revolution where he mentions abolishing high level government positions as a firs effect of the state
withering away. Again, I don't have the actual text on me but maybe somebody else can provide. Die
hard Marxist-Leninists will argue that therefore there is no problem with a very authoritarian state
because the bureaucrats don't actually form a new class and will at some point of development cease
to have a raison d'etre. Ofcourse, they often do warn against the possibility of them becoming a new
class.
I tend to lean towards a more libertatian interpretation of Lenin where the withering of the state does
need a democratic structure and essentially moves power downwards.
23rd July 2014, 09:45
Tim Cornelis
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It can easily explained. According to Marxism, contradictions within capitalism produce class
antagonisms between the working class and capitalist class which will result, at some point, in a
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revolutionary situation wherein the working class forms organs of workers' power -- such as workers'
councils, workers' associations, committees, communes -- to try and conquer political power. These
organs, part of a revolutionary body -- the workers' state or revolutionary dictatorship of the
proletariat -- is organised from below with power in the lowest organs, and mandated, recallable,
rotating workers' deputies in higher organs executing decisions. These decisions are binding on all
organs by virtue of the lower organs accepting the decisions of the higher organs. This is important
since the revolutionary working class needs to generalise its conditions to consolidate victory. The
revolutionary state is a temporary one where councils and such organs will wield political power, while
workers' associations will assume control of production. Through this process, socialised production
under private property is transformed into social ownership. The state will use violence, pressure, and
coercion where necessary to consolidate power and carry the revolution to victory. This violence is
directed at the reaction, those using violence to restore property rights and to restore the bourgeois
class to the position of ruling class. As the social revolution progresses the reaction is beaten and
defeated, and the process of socialisation is completed, revolutionary violence is obsolete and will
necessarily disappear -- it's not a matter of giving up power, it's matter of it becoming obsolete.
What remains of the workers' state -- the workers' state stripped of its coercive functions -- is
the associations of producers and social ownership. In other words, the result is the free association
of equal producers and consumers administrating commonly owned productive resources: communism.
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23rd July 2014, 10:25
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For Marxists, the roots of the state are in economic formations - property relations that is. When
property is abolished (ie, the working class has taken over all property and collectivised it) then there
is no longer a class system (because classes are in the end a product of property relations) and there
is not state (because states to are a reflection of property relations). On what basis is a 'communist
state' constituted? Which class has power when there are no more classes (because there are no
longer different relations to property)?
The state 'withers away' (in Engels' biological metaphor) like the leaves of a dead tree, when the roots
of the tree (property relations) have been destroyed.
This is why Marxists regard the insistence of some Anarchists that the state needs to be 'abolished' as
idealistic. States can't be created or abolished by wishing; they can only cease to exist when the
material conditions for their existence have ceased to exist (in this case, ultimately, classes and
property).
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23rd July 2014, 11:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake's Baby
The state 'withers away' (in Engels' biological metaphor) like the leaves of a dead tree, when
the roots of the tree (property relations) have been destroyed.
If this is true then the metaphor for roots isnt property relations, but individuals supporting the state.
That is, for the state to wither away there shouldn't be any marxist, capitalist or any of that sort.
Just anarchists.
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We are conditioned by the state and judicial systems to believe in absolutist concepts - stealing is wrong, violence is
criminal - regardless of context and despite the surreptitious use of such methods by the economic and state authorities
to gain ever increasing control. Theft is not always justified, situation is always a consideration and the individual must
determine their morality
23rd July 2014, 11:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exeexe
If this is true then the metaphor for roots isnt property relations, but individuals supporting the
state. That is, for the state to wither away there shouldn't be any marxist, capitalist or any of
that sort. Just anarchists.
None of this makes sense.
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23rd July 2014, 13:21
Kill all the fetuses!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impossible
It seems that according to marxists the state withers away in some magical way that cannot
be explained except by giving some poetic metaphor, so Trotsky says:
"the road to Socialism lies through a period of the highest possible intensification of the
principle of the State. ... Just as a lamp, before going out, shoots up in a brilliant flame, so the
State, before disappearing, assumes the form of the dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e., the
most ruthless form of State, which embraces the life of the citizens authoritatively in every
direction."
Can some Trotskyist maybe comment on this quote, its context etc? Because it seems to me, if taken
on its face value, to be pretty contrary to the Marxist idea of the State and its inevitable withering
away.
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23rd July 2014, 13:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill all the fetuses!
Can some Trotskyist maybe comment on this quote, its context etc? Because it seems to me,
if taken on its face value, to be pretty contrary to the Marxist idea of the State and its
inevitable withering away.
Trotsky is just saying that the DotP is a "ruthless form od State", the last form of State, that assumes
such character to suppress counter-revolution and etc. He will also say "Both economic and political
compulsion are only forms of the expression of the dictatorship of the working class in two closely
connected regions" and "No organization except the army has ever controlled man with such severe
compulsion as does the State organization of the working class in the most difficult period of
transition. It is just for this reason that we speak of the militarization of labor" ('Terrorism and
Communism', btw).
Of course the last part, 'embrace... authoritatively', sounds worst than it really is - which is not to say
that it's not bullshit. He is defending the militarisation of labour. I'm no trot, though.
impossible did not give any context because, besides being quite dishonest, s/he is in a holy war
against Marxism. Pathetic.
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this is his fully developed slavery and inhumanity."
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23rd July 2014, 14:32
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Kill all the fetuses!
Anarcho-Stalinist-Trotskyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Get a Job, Hippie!
Of course the last part, 'embrace... authoritatively', sounds worst than it really is - which is
not to say that it's not bullshit. He is defending the militarisation of labour. I'm no trot, though.
Tell me if I got this right: Trotky's talking about militarization of labour and state compulsion, which for
him is necessary in order to defend the revolution?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Get a Job, Hippie!
impossible did not give any context because, besides being quite dishonest, s/he is in a holy
war against Marxism. Pathetic.
Well, he never gives context. I learnt to ignore him, although, he still manages to irritate me.
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23rd July 2014, 14:56
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The state withers away in the sense that what we see as the "proletarian state" no longer takes on
the character of "state" because classes have been abolished.
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"The revolution is the political and economic affair of the totality of the proletarian class. Only the proletariat as a class
can lead the revolution to victory. Everything else is superstition, demagogy and political chicanery. The proletariat must
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the most extensive framework." - Otto Ruhle
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23rd July 2014, 15:45

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brotto Rhle
The state withers away in the sense that what we see as the "proletarian state" no longer
takes on the character of "state" because classes have been abolished.
But how can a class said to have control if said control is via party parliamentary representation? As
in, not direct control of the state or it's organs. That is what to me doesn't make sense. If the state is
merely a system of property relations that will be destroyed or decay, how will this take place if a
party or bureaucracy or what have you assume the same control over the means of production and of
property just as the bourgeoisie?
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23rd July 2014, 15:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill all the fetuses!
Tell me if I got this right: Trotky's talking about militarization of labour and state compulsion,
which for him is necessary in order to defend the revolution?
Basically yes. The militarisation of labour was considered necessary due to the calamitous state of
Russian production caused by the war and the civil war. Period of 'war communism', need of resources
for the army, principally.
Nothing's like the socialist boss innit.
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this is his fully developed slavery and inhumanity."
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23rd July 2014, 17:43
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If it is difficult to somebody to imagine how "the State would be withering away" ... then this scheme
could help you http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?bt=22905 The State (the Proletarian state) exists
while the DOTP is lasting. As you see on upper axis the capitalist mode of production is used during
the DOTP period for a while but all the time capitalist (state-capitalist) sector of economy would be
decreasing because of parallel communist sector of economy which would be increasing at the expense
of capitalist sector. Selfmanagement under communism doesn't need any state governing, so
decreasing of capitalist/state-capitalist sector of economy would demand less and less of state
governing, so functions of state gradually would be replaced by society selfmanagement - the state as
though "withering away"
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23rd July 2014, 17:50
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Some good points in this thread and Tim C did a pretty bang-up job himself. But one point that has
been a little glossed over is that the whithering away of the state is also due to its administrative
functions having been distributed out among the people. That is to say that even the central aspect
of the apparatus will be fall away as well.
Anarchists inability to understand this relatively simple concept is strange to me.
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23rd July 2014, 17:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur
Some good points in this thread and Tim C did a pretty bang-up job himself. But one point that
has been a little glossed over is that the whithering away of the state is also due to its
administrative functions having been distributed out among the people. That is to say that
even the central aspect of the apparatus will be fall away as well.
Anarchists inability to understand this relatively simple concept is strange to me.
I understand the DotP and I wouldn't call it an inability to understand it at all. It is relatively simple,
but anarchists want direct and immediate destruction of the state and to not subject people to the
cruelty of an organ of violent class rule and suppression. Anarchists want a direct revolution to
destroy the state and the class system. In all honesty it depends on who is talking about the DotP
and how much I agree with it, some Marxists make it sound worse or better than others. By the way I
used to be a Marxist and read a lot of Lenin, but I went towards anarchism heavily because I agree
with the anarchists more than the Marxists. I oppose the DotP and I don't think that the DotP could go
any number of ways that include going fully to communism and degrading into a brutal state capitalist
dictatorship. I also wouldn't call the DotP a phase of socialism before communism, but rather a stage
of waning capitalism if that makes sense.
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23rd July 2014, 18:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake's Baby
This is why Marxists regard the insistence of some Anarchists that the state needs to be
'abolished' as idealistic. States can't be created or abolished by wishing; they can only cease
to exist when the material conditions for their existence have ceased to exist (in this case,
ultimately, classes and property).
That is a strawman. No anarchist that has seriously considered the question claims the state can be
abolished without the abolition of the very conditions that result in its social necessity.
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