https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/steam-at-specific-volume-pressure.

548959/
hi all!
i'm trying to figure out how much water i need to heat and to what temperature,
to end up with 1 cubic meter of steam at 70atm.
i used the calculator found here:
http://www.efunda.com/materials/water/steamtable_sat.cfm
i punched in 70atm, and got the following data:
Temperature (T) 286.72 C
Saturated Vapor (g)
37.067 kg/m3
is it correct that i need to get 37.067 liters of water to 286.72 celsius to get
1 cubic meter of steam at 70atm?
eventually, i'm trying to find how much energy is needed for this process, but i
'm guessing that's more of an engineering question.
i just want to get the quantities right first.
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answer:
It seems to me that you can get a cubic meter of steam at any temperature above
the triple point. The water content of that cubic meter will then be a function
of the vapor pressure, and that vapor pressure can have almost any value. Any am
ount of water injected into a closed container at a temperature above the triple
point will give you one cubic meter of steam. The vapor expands to occupy the e
ntire available volume.
How did you come up with those particular values of temperature and vapor pressu
re? Are they postulates?
If you approximate this with an ideal gas (assuming *only* steam), you have:
nRT = PV
So given P and V, you can choose any temperature and calculate n, the amount of
matter.

The web page you pointed to provides properties of saturated gas (ie: steam) and
saturated liquid water (water at the boiling point) for any pressure or tempera
ture input. You put in the correct numbers and you have the correct answer. Satu
rated water vapor at 70 atm has a temperature of 286.72 C and a density of 37.06
7 kg/m3.
is it correct that i need to get 37.067 liters of water to 286.72 celsius to get
1 cubic meter of steam at 70atm?
Here's where there might be an error. The volume of water you need depends on it
s density and the density depends on the pressure and temperature. So I'm not su
re where you got the 37.067 liters of water from. That assumes 1 liter of water
always weighs 1 kg. If you want to know the volume, you need to define the densi
ty which can only be done by defining pressure and temperature.
eventually, i'm trying to find how much energy is needed for this process, but i
'm guessing that's more of an engineering question.
i just want to get the quantities right first.
thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to help me with this!

:)
Note that the amount of energy needed to get steam at that pressure and temperat
ure is a function of the initial conditions of the water and the way you are hea
ting it. If for example, you heat it inside a pressurized container, that will g
ive you a different answer than if it's done inside a cylinder fitted with a pis
ton and there are many other ways to heat the water.
Nov 9, 2011 #5
klimatos
klimatos
Messages:417
I like Serena said: ?
Welcome to PF, tikipu! :)
If you approximate this with an ideal gas (assuming *only* steam), you have:
nRT = PV
So given P and V, you can choose any temperature and calculate n, the amount of
matter.
If your "n" is Avogadro's Number, then your equation is correct. If is is the nu
mber of molecules per cubic meter, then the formula becomes n=P/kT. This latter
formula is much easier to use, since it does away with the awkward molar volume.
Nov 10, 2011 #6
tikipu
tikipu
Messages:5
first of all, klimatos, I like Serena, Q_Goest and klimatos again,
thank you all for your reply and the warm welcome!
i knew physicists party hard, now i know they also party well.
:)
let me zoom out and give you a wider picture.
i need to pressurize 1 cubic meter of liquid from STP to 70atm.
if a vertical cylinder of 1 cubic meter volume with a piston is completely fille
d with the liquid at the bottom and then i start pushing steam at 70atm into the
other side of the piston at the top, then the liquid should be pushed out at 70
atm. right?
if so, then as the liquid gets pushed out, more steam needs to be added to the c
ylinder to occupy the enlarged volume. right? (or just to heat the existing stea
m more to increase it's volume)
if so, then by the end of the process all the liquid was pushed out at 70atm, an
d the cylinder is now filled with 1 cubic meter of steam at 70atm. right?
so:
klimatos said: ?
How did you come up with those particular values of temperature and vapor pressu
re? Are they postulates?
the volume and pressure were derived from the above logic, the temperature and a
mount of water to convert to steam came to reach that end point, and that's what
i want to verify.
Q_Goest said: ?
Here's where there might be an error. The volume of water you need depends on it
s density and the density depends on the pressure and temperature. So I'm not su
re where you got the 37.067 liters of water from. That assumes 1 liter of water
always weighs 1 kg. If you want to know the volume, you need to define the densi
ty which can only be done by defining pressure and temperature.
the water used to create the steam will probably be good o'le available tap wate

r. such water obviously weight more than 1kg per liter, but is it ok to say that
the estimation of 37.067 liters at 286.72c roughly applies?
Q_Goest said: ?
Note that the amount of energy needed to get steam at that pressure and temperat
ure is a function of the initial conditions of the water and the way you are hea
ting it. If for example, you heat it inside a pressurized container, that will g
ive you a different answer than if it's done inside a cylinder fitted with a pis
ton and there are many other ways to heat the water.
that's next on my query list. i just want to see i got that basics of the whole
process right before i dive into the engineering aspects of it.
Nov 10, 2011 #7
I like Serena
I like Serena
Messages:6,189
klimatos said: ?
If your "n" is Avogadro's Number, then your equation is correct. If is is the nu
mber of molecules per cubic meter, then the formula becomes n=P/kT. This latter
formula is much easier to use, since it does away with the awkward molar volume.
Not sure what you are saying here.
I know of 3 flavors:
PV=nRT where n is the number of moles and R is the universal gas constant
PV=mRT where m is the mass and R is the specific gas constant (for steam in this
case).
PV=NkT where N is the number of molecules and k is the Boltzmann constant.
I intended the first, but it is arbitrary.
Just out of curiosity, when would the molar volume become awkward?
Nov 10, 2011 #8
I like Serena
I like Serena
Messages:6,189
tikipu said: ?
the water used to create the steam will probably be good o'le available tap wate
r. such water obviously weight more than 1kg per liter, but is it ok to say that
the estimation of 37.067 liters at 286.72c roughly applies?
Still not sure what you're doing here.
Is the steam pure water, or is it saturated in air?
For reference, with steam of pure water, the formula PV=nRT combined with a mola
r mass of water of 18 g/mol, yields that:
At P=70 atm, V=1 m3, T=286.72 C, you need 27 kg water which is approximately 27 l
iters of liquid water.
If the steam is saturated in air, you need to consult the saturated steam table.
Nov 10, 2011 #9
klimatos
klimatos
Messages:417
I like Serena said: ?
Just out of curiosity, when would the molar volume become awkward?
In working with the free atmosphere, when the volume of a mass of air is unknown
, but the pressure and temperature can be measured.
The formula P = nkT is the kinetic gas theory equivalent of your equations. This
is sometimes written P = nm?2 in statistical mechanics and statistical thermody

namics. In both equations, P is the pressure in Pascals per square meter, n is t

he molecular number density in number of molecules per cubic meter, k is Boltzma
nn's Constant in joules per molecule per Kelvin, T is the gas temperature in Kel
vins, m is the mean molecular impulse mass (see my subsequent posting), and ? is
the standard deviation of the axial distribution of molecular velocities (rootmean-square axial velocity).
This is easily derived from the equivalence n = NA / V where NA is Avogadro's Nu
mber and V is the molar volume and the equivalence R = NA * k where R is the Uni
versal Gas Constant.
Nov 10, 2011 #10
klimatos
klimatos
Messages:417
tikipu said: ?
hi all!
i'm trying to figure out how much water i need to heat and to what temperature,
to end up with 1 cubic meter of steam at 70atm.
is it correct that i need to get 37.067 liters of water to 286.72 celsius to get
1 cubic meter of steam at 70atm?
:)
Tikipu,
1) n = P/kT = (70 x 1013.25)/(1.3806504E-23 x 559.87). This is the number of wat
er molecules per cubic meter at the specified temperature and pressure. k is Bol
tzmann s Constant.
2) mwater = 2.99144976E-26 kg. Note that this is the mean impulse mass of the wa
ter molecule, not the mean mass which is 2.99150512E-26 kg (VSMOW standard). Tec
hnically speaking, because water is a mixture of molecular masses, the impulse m
ass should be used in any calculation involving pressure. The difference is negl
igible in most calculations.
3) n mwater = the mass of one cubic meter of steam at the specified temperature
and pressure.
4) Go to Engineering Toolbox and calculate how many joules it will take to heat
that amount of water to that temperature and pressure.
Note A: You mention vaporizing a cubic meter of water to a cubic meter of steam.
It can t be done. It is physically impossible. You will end up with slightly more
than a cubic meter of superheated water, not steam. Since water is not very com
pressible, you will likely end up with a ruptured container.
Note B: Having worked with water vapor for many decades, my gut tells me your st
eam mass of 37.067 kg is way, way, out of whack. Using the calculations shown ab
ove, I get only 2.17 grams of steam.
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