Ditommaso Transcript

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IN THE SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY TRIAL COURT DISTRICT

WEST VALLEY DIVISION, COUNTY OF SAN BERNARDINO
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
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THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE

OF CALIFORNIA,
Plaintiff,
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Case No. FWV-032194
-vs-
SCOTT FREDERIC HARRISON,

Defendant.
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REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL PROCEEDINGS
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TESTIMONY OF KARL JOSEPH DITOMMASO
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BEFORE HON. INGRID A. UHLER, JUDGE
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DEPARTMENT 4
RANCHO CUCAMONGA, CALIFORNIA
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TUESDAY, JULY 13, 2005 and
WEDNESDAY, JULY 14, 2005
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APPEARANCES:
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For the People:
MICHAEL A. RAMOS
District Attorney
BY: CHERYL KERSEY
Deputy District Attorney
For the Defendant:
ROBERT E. BOYCE
Attorney-at-Law
Reported by:
DEBRA A. GODINEZ
Official Reporter
C.S.R. No. 4491
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CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX
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WITNESS
PAGE
(FOR THE PEOPLE) :

KARL JOSEPH DITOMMASO
Direct Examination
Cross Examination
Cross Examination (Resumed)
Redirect Examination
Recross Examination
Further Redirect Examination
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105
122
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141
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RANCHO CUCAMONGA, CALIF; WEDNESDAY, JULY 13, 2005; 1:45 P.M.
DEPARTMENT 4
APPEARANCES:
HON. INGRID A. UHLER, JUDGE
The Defendant HARRISON with his Counsel,
ROBERT E. BOYCE, Attorney-at-Law; CHERYL
KERSEY, Deputy District Attorney of the
County of San Bernardino, representing the
People of the State of California.
(Debra A. Godinez, C.S.R., Official
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Reporter, C-4491)
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(Whereupon proceedings in this matter
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were held, reported but not transcribed herein)
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(The following proceedings were held
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outside the presence of the jury)
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THE COURT:
We are on the matter of People vs.
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Scott Harrison, who is present with Mr. Boyce.
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Kersey is present.
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Ditommaso is present.
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examination of Mr. Ditommaso.
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Miss
Former Sgt. Dean is present.
Mr.
We are going to start with the
There had been a previous discussion in regards
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to Miss Kersey made it amply clear that no statements
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were made to Mr. Ditommaso except for the statements made
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between her and Mr. Ditommaso in the presence of Mr.
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Gebbie and Detective Perez that should have been on tape,
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and I gave Mr. Boyce an opportunity to review the
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transcript and listen to the audiotape of that
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~-
conversation, and that should be the end of that.
Mr. Boyce?
MR. BOYCE:
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Ditommaso.
THE COURT:
You certainly can question him, if
you want to, outside the presence of the jury.
MR. BOYCE:
MS. KERSEY:
THE COURT:
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Maybe I should just ask Mr.
Mr. Ditommaso
I'm sorry.
Could we swear him in?
Mr. Ditommaso -- we need to swear him
in first.
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KARL JOSEPH DITOMMASO,
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called as a witness on behalf of the People, was sworn
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and testified as follows:
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THE CLERK:
You do solemnly state that the
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testimony which you are about to give in this case shall
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be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
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so help you God?
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THE WITNESS:
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THE CLERK:
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Please state your full name, spelling your first
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Yes.
Thank you.
Please be seated.
and last name for the record.

THE WITNESS,
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D-i-t-o"m-m-a-s-o.
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THE COURT:
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Mr. Boyce?
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MR. BOYCE:
Karl Joseph Ditommaso,
Thank you.
Hi, Mr. Ditommasso.
How are you?
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THE WITNESS:
Fine.
How are you?
MR. BOYCE:
Your attorney is Bill Gebbie; is that right?
THE WITNESS:
MR. BOYCE:
Good.
That's correct.
And have you had some conversations
with him about a letter that is going to be written for
you to the Parole Board?
THE WITNESS:
MR. BOYCE:
Yes, sir.
And your attorney told you that the
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District Attorney would write a letter to the Parole
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Board advising them of your cooperation and assistance in
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testifying in this case; is that correct?
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THE WITNESS:
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MR. BOYCE:
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THE WITNESS:
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MR. BOYCE:
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And it's your belief that that might
help you get out on parole at some point?
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Yes, sir.
I don't know, sir.

Your attorney didn't discuss that
with you at all?

THE WITNESS:
He said it possibly could, but it's
up to the Parole Board if I did get a date to go home.

MR. BOYCE:
That's right.
But you're hoping that
letter is going to help you get a date to go home, right?
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MR. KERSEY:
Objection.
Relevance, your Honor.
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THE COURT:
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THE WITNESS:
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MR. BOYCE:
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I don't have anything further.
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THE COURT:
It's overruled.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Thank you.
You could bring everybody
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.~
in, Bill.
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Since you've been previously sworn, we won't

swear you in in front of the jury.
Move the microphone towards you.
(The witness complied)
THE COURT:
Thank you.
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(At this time the jury
entered the courtroom)
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THE COURT:
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Okay.
We are on the matter of People
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vs. Scott Harrison, who is present with Mr. Boyce.
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Kersey is present.
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jurors and alternates are presently constituted.
previously sworn as a witness.

And, Miss Kersey, when you're ready, you may
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The
This is Karl Ditommaso, and he has been
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Miss
proceed.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION
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BY MS. KERSEY:
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Good afternoon.
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Good afternoon.
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Now, your last name is Ditommaso.
Just so we have
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some consistency, in the 1990's at some point you changed
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your name from "Bragg" to "Ditommaso"?
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That's correct.
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Would you like to be called "Ditommaso" at this
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point?
Yes.
Now, we heard from a person named Lisa Bragg, now
Markwart.
Was that your former wife?
That's correct.
Your first wife?
First wife.
Did you have children with Lisa?
I'll just call her
Lisa Bragg.
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No, ma'am.
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When do you recall getting married to Lisa Bragg?
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It was in April of '89.
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And later you divorced Lisa Bragg?
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That's correct.
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Do you know when you got divorced or how long the
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marriage was?
A
I think it was in '93, I believe.
It might have
been sooner.
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How old are you now, Mr. Ditommaso?
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I'm36.
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So in 1991 how old were you?
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Twenty -- 21?
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Yes.
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I was 20-years-old.
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And then throughout that marriage, you got divorced
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'91,
'92?
How old were you when you got married?
about four years later, so you were about 24, 25?
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24 or 25.
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So that was pretty -- you were both -- were both of
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you the same age or --
No.
Now, currently you're in custody.
That's correct.
You were convicted of murder?
That's correct.
Regarding the death of phil Perry?
That's correct.
And that conviction occurred in -- I want to say
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April, 2002?
2001?
MR. BOYCE:
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She's older than me.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
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remember.
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in front of me.
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Was it in April, 2002?
I don't know the exact date.
THE COURT:
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Leading.
I don't have it
Why don't you ask him if he remembers
the date.
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(BY MS. KERSEY)
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I believe it was July or August.
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Okay.
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Yes.
Do you remember?
So late in the year?
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MR. BOYCE:
Vague as to what year.
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THE COURT:
What year?
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THE WITNESS:
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THE COURT:
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If you
(BY MS. KERSEY)
2002.
Thank you, Mr. Ditommaso.
What I want to initially talk to
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you about, Mr. Ditommaso, is your relationship with
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with Lisa, Lisa Bragg Markwart, okay?
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A Okay.
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/-
town?
Alta Lorna, California.
Where were you working?
For B&B Associates.
Can you tell us what B&B Associates were?
We were a loan brokerage.
Now, back in 1991, where were you living?
What
People that wanted to
obtain a loan to purchase a house or refi, they'd come to
us and we'd help retain them.
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You're saying -- who's "we"?
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It was me, David Kong, Scott Harrison.
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We all
worked together doing loans.
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Who was the other "B" for?
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Bragg.
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I assume one "B" was for
Oh, it -- it was for -- it was not for no other
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Bragg or nothing; just B&B.
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we wanted to be closer to the front of the ads, you know,
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in the Yellow Pages.
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So who -- in 1991,
We came up with that because
'92, who generally -- you've
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named some names -- Scott Harrison, David Kong.
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else?
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Myself.
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Did Robert Minor work there at the business?
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No, rna' am.
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Did he ever assist or help out in typing?
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the phones?
Anything like that?
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He did occasionally.
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What kinds of things would Robert Minor do
Who
Answering
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occasionally?
A
He would help either by transporting a package, like
delivering it to the lender for us -Q
So he didn't really have any special skills in loan
applications or loan processing?
He was trying to learn.
Now, how -- did you go to school to learn loan
processing and applications?
Yes, I did.
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And you said Scott Harrison was working there at the
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I took real estate classes.
business?
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He worked with me, yes, ma'am.
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So were -- was Scott Harrison a commissioned
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employee or a salaried employee?
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Commission.
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Was everybody commission?
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Everybody was commission.
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And what was commission based on?
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If you brought the loan in and we funded the loan,
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you got paid a percentage of the commission that we made.
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So who funded the loans actually?
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It would be like Pin Fund Mortgage (phonetic
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What company?
spelling) .
Q
So if people wanted a loan, you'd give them the loan
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paperwork, they'd fill it out, then would you process
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that loan and get a lender basically?
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Exactly.
I was a middleman.
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So the commission, then, for everybody would be
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based probably on how much the loan was?

A
That's exactly -- it's usually 1 or 2% of the loan
amount.
How long did you have that business?
I had it -- well, actually I had it all the way up
until I got arrested.
So when would that have been?
2001.
Did the business stay in the same location?
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No.
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Where did it move to?
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It was in different locations in Rancho Cucamonga,
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and then we had an office that we ended up moving to
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towards 2001 in San Bernardino off of Arrowhead.
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There's a --
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MS. KERSEY:
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THE COURT:
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MS. KERSEY:
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May I walk through the well?

That's fine.
Okay.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
There's an exhibit that's been
marked as No.1, which is just generally
it's a map.
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Would you familiarize yourself with that?
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(Pause)
Do you see the location of B&B Associates at the
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time, in 1991,
'92?
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(No audible response)
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You're pointing to a blue square pretty much in the
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middle of the map.
And is the address correct, 9631
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Business Center Drive?
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That is correct.
And where were you living at that time?
Up here on 19th.
Okay.
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Again you're pointing at Exhibit 1 to a blue

rectangle, and that indicates 8990 19th Street, No. 440?
That's correct.
Now, there was a condominium that you -- at least at
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some point owned or processed.
Do you recall the
condominium?
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The Minor's.
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"The Minor's," meaning Robert and Elizabeth?
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Robert and Elizabeth.
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Again you're pointing to a blue rectangle.
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the correct address, 8430, No. H, Spring Desert Place?
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Yes.
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Thank you.
During 1991 did Robert and Liz Minor live at the
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Is that
condominium?
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Yes.
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Did they at some point move to an apartment?
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Yes.
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When did they move to the apartment?
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When they -- well, Bob Minor lost his job and Liz
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was not working, and that's when -- that's when they
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couldn't afford to make the payments.
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So they lost the condominium --
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Yes.
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in foreclosure?
They were losing it, and then a friend of mine and I
picked it up.
Q
When you say "picked it up," did you take over the
loan paperwork?
A
Took over the loan paperwork, brought the payments
current and sold the property.
Where did Robert and Liz Minor move after living at
the condominium?
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At an apartment complex on 9th Street.
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Do you see that on Exhibit 1?
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Again you're pointing to a blue square, 1319 East
Ninth Street, No. 13?
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That's correct.
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And at the time of the murder of Phil Perry where
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were Liz and Robert -- where were they living?
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On 9th Street in the apartments.
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So they had already moved from the condo?
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Is that a "yes"?
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Yes.
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How long did that condominium stay vacant, if you
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remember?
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I believe two months.
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Was it during this va- -- was it vacant at the time
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of the homicide?
A
Yes.
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Back then in '91,
'92 was -- was your business
rather busy or slow or can you characterize it?
I was doing okay.
Now, you've talked about some of your employees.
I was pretty busy.
You mentioned Scott Harrison.
Yes.
Is he in court today?
Yes.
Would you please identify him for the record?
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He's sitting over there in the blue suit.
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At the end of counsel table?
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At the end of the counsel table.

THE COURT:
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The record will reflect the witness
identified the defendant, Mr. Harrison.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
How long did Mr. Harrison work for
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you there -- or work -- it sounds more like worked with
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you is better than worked for you.
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Yes, because he was attending college at Point Loma
at the same time.
And I'm going to assume, based on what you've said,
was he drumming up his own business?
Loan applications?
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Exactly.
Anyone that wanted a loan that he knew, he
got paid for.

Q
So you weren't telling Scott Harrison what to do as
far as making assignments or --
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MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
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THE COURT:
Sustained.
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(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
Were you telling Scott Harrison
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what to do as a supervisor would?
NOt
Now, you said that Scott Harrison was attending
ma'am.
college?
Yes.
Where was he attending college?
Point Lorna Nazarene School.
the name.
I'm not quite sure of
It was in Point Lorna.
Is that in San Diego County?
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Yes.
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How long did you know -- or up till 1992, give or
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take, how long had you known Scott Harrison?

A
I met Scott through Lisa because he was dating
Lisa's sister, Sheila.

Q
And apparently
I believe I met him in 1988.

eventually did Scott get married
to Sheila?
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Yes.
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And did you go to their wedding?
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AYes.
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When did that wedding occur, if you remember?
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I don't recall.
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Was it after phil Perry's death?
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Yes.
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How often during 1991 and '92 would you see Scott
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I was the best man.
Harrison?
A
Quite often through family -- I would say through
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family gatherings, holidays.
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weekends.
Urn, he was down here on
We went to San Diego on weekends.
We spent
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quite a bit of time together.
So just you and Scott Harrison?
No, the four of us, Scott and Sheila and myself and
Lisa.
Did Scott Harrison have a car?
No.
How would you get together to see him?
Usually at the time he rented a -- I think it was a
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Lincoln Towne Car (phonetic spelling) -- I'm not too

sure
and then he used my Mercedes from time to time.
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Would he ever ride the train?
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Yes.
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How frequently would he ride the train?
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MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
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THE COURT:
Sustained without further foundation.
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(BY MS. KERSEY)
Lack of foundation.
Did you ever go to the train
station and pick him up?

A
I don't recall.
Union Station.
I think maybe once at - - urn, at
I do believe he came in once.
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That would be in Los Angeles?
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Yes.
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Was Scott Harrison at your business or at B&B
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everyday or what were the hours
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He was only there when he was in town, in Rancho.
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Did he ever stay the night at your house?
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Yes.
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How frequently?
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Whenever he was down he spent the night there.
Urn,
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on the weekends definitely,
'cause him and his wife would
come down here and spend the weekend with us.
Him and his wife Sheila?
Yes.
So that would be after the death of Phil Perry?
No.
You mean his girlfriend, then?
His girlfriend.
So if we're talking -- I mean -- I guess what I'm
That was even before.
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trying to get at is how often would you really see him
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during that year, that time period?
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Twice a week?
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week.'
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Like once a week?
Probably about -- at least three or four times a
And would you characterize your relationship as
friendly?
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Yes.
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How close of friends were you?
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We were very close.
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When he was in town, did you do things together?
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Yes.
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Other than work?
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Yes.
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Was he -- was Scott Harrison the person that you
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spent most of your time with as far as male friends at
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that time period?
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At that time period.
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Now, did you -- during this time also did you carry
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a weapon?
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Yes, ma'am.
How would you carry that weapon?
Where
~on
your body
or how would you do that?
In a black bag.
What kind of bag?
Like a little attache case bag that you have for --
like the front part had credit cards in --
Was it, like, a zippered case?
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Yes, ma'am.
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Why fid you carry one?
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MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
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THE COURT:
Sustained.
Relevance.
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(BY MS. KERSEY)
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Yes, ma'am.
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And what -- how did he carry his weapon?
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In a similar-shaped bag.
MR. BOYCE:
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Objection, 352, and I've objected
before, your Honor.

THE COURT:
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Did Scott Harrison carry a weapon?
And I'll make the same ruling.
Overruled.
Q
(BY MS. KERSEY)
How frequently would Scott Harrison
carry a weapon?
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He had it with him all the time.
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How frequently did you carry a weapon?
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All the time.
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Well, why -- why were you carrying a weapon?
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MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
Relevance.
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THE COURT:
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(BY MS. KERSEY)
MR. BOYCE:
(BY MS. KERSEY)
THE COURT:
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Were you ever -- were you making
cash transactions at a bank --
Sustained.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Objection.
Relevance.
-- or --
Sustained.
Did you have a concealed weapons
permit?
A
No, ma'am.
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MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
Relevance, 352.
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THE COURT:
Overruled.
The answer. may remain.
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(BY MS. KERSEY)
Now, when Scott Harrison would stay
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the night, did you ever see the weapon at your house?
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Yes.
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In the same -- in this zippered case?
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Yes.
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And when you would see him at the business, did he
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have a weapon?
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Yes.
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Now,
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at some point in 1992 did you find out your
wife was having an affair?
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Yes, I did.
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How did you find that out?
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I found that out because I found some letters
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written to Mr. Perry from Lisa.
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them?
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How did you find the letters and where did you find
In Lisa's car.
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What kind of car did she drive?
At the time she had a white Jeep.
And what were you driving?
I had a blue Mercedes 190E.
Did you have another car?
Yes, a Supra.
So you found the actual letters, though, in the
Jeep?
Yes.
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What did you do with the letters?
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Held onto them.
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Did you read them?
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Yes.
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At some point did you do something with those
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letters?
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I confronted her with it.
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What happened when you confronted her?
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She says they were just friends.
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Did you know Phil Perry at that point?
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Very well.
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How did you know him?
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I knew him from St. Joseph's Church.
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He was a
deacon there.
Q
And when you say you knew him very well, would you
describe that relationship that you had?

A
Well, he was kind of like a marriage
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counselor/advisor.
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him about it.
Whenever I had a problem,
I'd talk to
Um, me and Lisa had a lot of marital
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problems, and he used to come and sit with us, talk to
us.
with me and talk to me, studied the Bible.
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He'd come to my office on Arrow in Rancho and sit
So at that time it sounds like he was somewhat
acting as an advisor or counselor to you and Lisa.
Yes.
So when you found the letters, how did you feel?
Betrayed.
Did you ever confront Phil Perry about the letters?
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Yes, I did.
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What happened then?
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He said there was nothing there; they were just
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friends.
Q
Do you know in terms of time when you confronted
Phil Perry?
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I don't know the exact time or date.
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If you could, give an estimate in terms of -- like,
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for instance, after January?
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time of Phil Perry's death, was it in that time period or
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was it prior to that?
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Like January '92 till the
I think the very first time was before that.
in the end of '91.

Q
So it sounds like, then, you confronted Phil Perry
more than once.
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Yes.
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So the first time you confronted him you had
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It was
letters?
A
Yes.
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What happened the second time?
The second time was when I confronted him with, urn,
the head priest at St. Joseph's.
Fahnestock or Fahn- -- I'm not correct on his name, but I
think it's Fahnestock.
I believe it's
Father John Fahnestock?
Yes, that is correct.
Did you know Father John?
Yes.
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Now, did you -- at this particular time you were
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aware that Lisa was attending some kind of classes at the
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church?
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That is correct.
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Did you go to those classes with her?
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Urn, a couple times I did.
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Is that how you initially met Phil Perry?
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Urn, no.
I met Phil Perry, urn, going to church.
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was a very friendly man.
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didn't know you, he'd walk up to you and introduce
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himself.
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Sandridge's.
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classes, so I had been to one of his classes 'with Lisa
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and one that Phil gave.
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He'd walk up to you -- if he
I actually went to -- urn,
it was Danny
That's where he was doing some of the
When you were talking about "one of his classes,"
you went to Danny Sandridge's residence?
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Residence.
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And this is all courses about religion?
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Yes.
He
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3
So the second time you confronted Phil Perry, what
happened?
A
It was with John Fahnestock, and Mr. Perry said that
they were still friends.
Father John Fahnestock said that he was going to make
sure that everything would stop.
7
8
He denied everything.
And then
So in that meeting, I take it -- it sounds like you
were there, Father John Fahnestock and Deacon Perry?
Deacon Perry.
10
So there was some agreement that the relationship
11
would stop?
12
Yes.
13
At that point in time did you believe it was just a
14
friendship or did you think there was more involved than
15
that?
16
Well, per the letters there was more.
It seemed
17
like there was more to it, but I was trying to give
18
everyone the benefit of the doubt.
19
20
Now, at some point did you obtain your wife's P.o.
box location and go to that P.O. box?
21
Yes.
22
Did you collect letters?
23
Yes.
24
And were any of those letters from Phil Perry?
25
Yes.
26
So it sounds like you had quite a few letters.
27
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
Leading.
28
THE COURT:
It's overruled.
22
1
You could answer "y'e s " or "rio .
THE WITNESS:
3
4
(BY MS. KERSEY)
II
Yes, I did.
Now, was there a -- did you ever
discuss with your family this inappropriate relationship?
Yes.
Who in your family was aware of the problem?
My mother, um, Jose Brambila, which was my
stepfather, Tony Brambila.
Are all these people members of the same church?
10
Yes, we were all members of the same church.
11
And what about your grandmother?
12
I don't think she knew the whole situation.
13
Did you ever talk to Liz Minor or Robert Minor about
14
it?
15
Liz Minor.
16
Without Robert?
17
Yes.
18
19
20
21.
Did she know?
Robert Minor was at the end, more so, than at
the beginning.
Q
Well, we're talking about the beginning.
Could you
give us a time frame?

A
When I first received the letters, I talked to
22
Elizabeth Minor about it.
When I got the ones out of the
23
P.O. box, Robert was present at that time.
24
Oh, he was with you at the P.O. box location?
25
Yes.
26
Now, in terms of time, do you know -- I mean, you've
27
said that you found out about -- or got the first set of
28
letters around the end of 1991?
23
1
Uh-huh.
Is that yes"?
Yes.
Okay.
And then when did you talk to people -- or when
did people become aware of the relationship in terms of
that and your second meeting -- or your meeting with Phil
Perry and Father Fahnestock?
Well, the first set of letters I talked to my mother
10
about because at the time Lisa was working with my
11
mother.
12
then around January -- I believe it was January or
13
February is when I found the other ones inside the P.o.
14
box.
15
16
17
18
And I would say that was before Christmas.
And
At what point in time did you confront your wife
about the letters?

A
Probably about a week after I found them in her --
inside the car.
19
That's the first time?
20
The first time.
21
Did you ever talk to her again about the letters?
22
~.
23
Did you ever get intq a confrontation with her about
24
their relationship?
25
No.
26
So you were just collecting evidence?
27
Well, I also found other letters, too, that she was
28
having -- she was apparently sleeping with another guy as
24
1
well.
So where -- where did you -- I mean, at some point
you had to have some kind of confrontation with Lisa.
you know when that happened?
Around March.
Was that after your meeting with, urn, Father John
and Phil Perry or before?
That was after.
And during that confrontation in March with your
10
wife, was anybody else there?
11
Yeah.
12
Who was there?
13
Sheila, her sister.
14
At that point did Miss
15
16
Yeah.
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
18
THE COURT:
Sustained.
20
21
well, your wife, Lisa
Bragg, deny the affair and say it was over or --
17
19
Do
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
Well, what happened during that
discussion with your wife?

A
She said that she's no longer seeing Phil.
She said
22
she was now seeing this other guy she was apparently
23
having an affair with.
24
always denied the relationship with her and phil.
She always -- for some reason she
25
Even though you had letters?
26
Yes.
27
Now, at some point -- you said that that was March
28
or thereabouts -- did you have any other confrontations
25
1
2
3
4
with Lisa about her relationship with Phil?

A
I think that was the last one 'cause that was also
the time that we mentioned about getting divorced.

Q
At some point did you find out that Lisa was
pregnant --
Yes.
-- during that -- how did you find that out?
She came and told me.
And did you talk to her about who the dad, the
10
father, was?
11
Yes.
12
Did you ask her if Phil Perry was the father?
13
I did.
14
And did she deny it?
15
She said she didn't know.
16
Do you know, in terms of time, when that happened?
17
I believe that was in April, the beginning of April.
18
Was that a -- did that -- I mean, I'm using the word
19
"confrontation."
Was that an argument?
20
Yeah, because she wanted to have an abortion.
21
And you didn't know -- well, was there a discussion
22
between you and her as to whether or not you, yourself,
23
were the father?
24
25
Yes.
She didn't know if it was me, Phil Perry, or
the man she's married to now.
26
Did that make you angry?
27
Yes.
28
And that occurred sometime in April?
26
2
Yes.
Did you ever try to personally talk to Phil Perry
3
4
after that meeting that you had with Father Fahnestock?

A
No.
I believe that that was the last time.
Phil came over and we still talked, but I believed
that
time we talked with Father Fahnestock.
8
9
I mean,
I believed that everything was settled at the
Do you remember receiving a letter from -- from Phil
Perry saying that he couldn't meet with you anymore?
10
Yes.
11
Did you ever talk to him about why he couldn't meet
12
13
with you anymore?

A
Yes.
He said that was because Father Fahnestock had
14
told him not to meet with me no more in regards to this
15
situation.
16
In other words, was it
17
being inappropriate for you
18
with you and Lisa or with Lisa?
19
20
21
22
23
24
Yes.
was it something about it

well, for phil Perry to be
It was supposed to be that, urn, Phil Perry
wasn't supposed to be around either one of us.
Do you know when that -- when that information
when you learned that from Father Fahnestock?

A
Somewhere right after the meeting with him that
letter was issued.
25
And you received the letter?
26
Yes.
27
So you knew after receiving the letter that Phil
28
Perry was not going to meet with you?
27
:2
But he did.
When did he meet with you?
Like a week later.
He came over to have coffee with
me.
.A
At the business?
Yes.
Now, at some point -- I'm going to jump ahead a
little bit -- you became pretty angry with Phil Perry; is
that accurate?
10
That's correct.
11
At that point in time you were angry with him why?
12
I was angry when I found out; that they were having
13
an affair.
14
man because he was a deacon of the church.
15
him.
16
him about my father,
17
problems, and then I find out he's sleeping with my
18
ex-wife, which would be currently my wife at the time, so
19
I was very upset.
20
21
I felt betrayed.
I opened up myself to this

I trusted in
I talked to him about my personal life, I talked to

I talked to him about my marriage
I felt very betrayed.
Now, at some point you -- urn, you talked to your
sister, Liz?
22
Correct.
23
Did you ask Liz for a favor?
24
Yes, I did.
25
What did you ask Liz to do?
26
Go talk to him.
27
When was she supposed to go talk to him?
28
The night he actually got murdered.
28
2
What were you doing that day?
I was at San Antonio Hospital.
Your daughter, Elise, was having
A tonsillectomy.
And that was an appointment that had been made in
advance?
Yes, ma'am.
What time, if you recall, did you get to the
9
10
11
12
13
hospital?
A
It was early in the morning.
I think 4:00 or 5:00.
It was an in and outpatient.

Q
So you were there for -- basically when Elise was
admitted to the hospital that morning?
14
Yes.
15
Was she supposed to be -- or was she let out that
16
day?
I believe it was that afternoon.
17
That night.
18
Well, you knew in advance it wasn't an overnighter?
19
Correct.
20
Were you at the hospital the entire time during the
21
surgery that Monday?
22
Yes.
23
So she got admitted and you waited for the surgery
24
to be completed?
25
Yes.
26
Okay.
27
28
Do you know approximately what time she was

discharged from the hospital?
29
2
I don't remember the exact time.
Well, could it have been around 6:00 p.m?
It could have been.
After she was discharged, do you remember what
happened with Elise?
With Elise?
Uh-huh.
Yes.
Was there anybody at the house with you that was
10
I took her home.
going to take care of her?
11
My grandparents and her grandmother.
12
Would that be Dorothy --
13
Merchain.
14
So were they already at the house or did everybody
15
kind of travel together?
16
We all traveled together from the hospital.
17
Did you leave the house that night after getting
18
back from the hospital?
19
No.
20
Now, you had -- when did you talk to Liz to make the
21
arrangements for her to meet with Phil Perry?
22
Liz was at the hospital.
23
I mean, at what point did you talk to her to meet
24
with Phil Perry to ask her that favor?
25
I believe a couple days prior to that.
26
Did you -- when you talked to her -- I mean, what
27
28
did you ask her to do exactly, if you remember?

A
Just to go tell Phil to leave our family alone.
30
3
Just to talk to him?
Yes.
Did you tell her that somebody was going to go with
her?
Yes.
Who did you tell her was going with her?
Scott Harrison.
Had you already talked to Scott Harrison and asked
him for this favor?
10
Yes.
11
And he agreed?
12
Yes.
13
Do you recall when you talked to Scott Harrison to
14
get him to agree to this favor?
15
A couple days prior.
16
Now, was there some reason why you wanted Liz to
17
18
19
20
21
meet with Phil Perry on the day of the surgery?

A
No, .1 don't recall exact why, just -- I wanted -- I
didn't care what day she actually met with him.
Well, you were -- you were at home, family members
were there, Elise was there on Monday.
22
Correct.
23
So you would have people that would be able to say
24
that you were at home on that particular day.

MR. BOYCE:
25
26
Argumentative, your
Honor, and leading.

THE COURT:
27
28
Objection.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
It's leading.
Sustained.
Would there be people that would
31
3
1
2
say you were at home that day?

A
Yes.
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
5
6
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Three.
Okay.
11
Who could have said that you were
at home as far as how many people were at the house?
10
Who were they?

A
Dorothy Merchain, Katherine Ditommaso and Frank
Ditommaso.
12
And your daughter?
13
And Elise.
14
Where was Lisa?
15
Lisa left.
16
Do you know where she went?
17
I don't know.
18
out
19
20
Leading.
I had -- well, I ended up finding
I heard she went to church to see Phil.

But did she come home from the hospital with
everybody?
21
Yeah.
22
And then she left after that?
23
She had to shower because Elise threw up on her
24
inside the hospital.

So once Elise got home, did you see her leave the
25
26
house?
27
Yes.
28
And what time -- or when did she come back?
32
3
After a couple hours.
But you -- you were there the entire time at night?
Yes.
At some point that night did you receive a phone
call
Yes.
-- from Liz?
Yes.
.MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
10
THE COURT:
Sustained.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
Did you receive a phone call?
11
12
Yes.
13
From who?
14
Liz Minor.
15
And about what time, if you could recall, did that
16
17
18
19
20
call come in?

A
It was late.
I don't recall the exact time, but it
was late.
Q
Do you recall whether or not Lisa had gotten home
yet from church?
21
Yes.
22
So it was after that?
23
Dh-huh.
24
Is that a "yes"?
25
Yes.
26
When you say "it was late," what does that mean to
27
28
you?
A
I believe it was after -- I know it was after 10:00.
33
3
1
2
3
9:00 or 10:00.
Did you talk to anybody else on the phone that night
other than Liz?
Just Liz.
Now, let's go back to the discussion that you had
with Liz and Scott a couple of days before, the 13th.
7
8
When you talked to Scott Harrison, was that on

the phone or face-to-face?
I believe it was face-to-face.
10
What did you ask him to do?
11
I asked him to go tell Phil Perry to leave us alone.
12
Leave "us," meaning --
13
My family.
14
15
Me and Lisa.
16
Did you tell him anything else?
17
And I told him to be as aggressive as he needed to
18
be.
you and Lisa?
19
Did you tell him about the affair?
20
Scott already knew about the affair.
21
How did Scott know about the affair?
22
Scott knew about the affair when I found the
23
24
25
letters.
So is that something that you confided in him as his
best friend?
26
Yeah.
27
How long -- if you could give a time, how long had
28
Scott known about the affair?
34
He knew all along, the whole time.
So as soon as you knew, Scott knew?
Yes.
Did he ever see the letters?
Yes.
Did you show them to him?
Yes.
Where did you keep the letters?
At the office.
10
Were they in any type of locked drawer or cabinet or
He knew before my family knew.
11
anything like that?
12
or what?
13
14
15
16
Could everybody kind of look at them
I don't recall where I had them in the office, but
it was inside my personal office at B&B.
Now, when you had talked to Scott Harrison about the
affair, did he ever react to that information?
17
MR. BOYCE:
Leading.
18
THE COURT:
Overruled.
19
THE WITNESS:
20
21
Yes.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
How did Scott Harrison react to the
information?
22
He was very upset.
23
Upset with Lisa?
24
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
25
THE COURT:
It's overruled.
26
THE WITNESS:
27
28
(BY MS. KERSEY)

And Phil.
Leading.
Yes, with Lisa.

Or was he upset with anyone else?
35
3
Did Scott Harrison know Phil?
Yes.
Do you -- were you present -- or do you know how
4
5
they
A
how they met?

I don't recall.
I mean, they could -- there could
have been plenty at times that Phil was at my mother's
house when Scott was there too.
the first time.
I don't recall when was
There were plenty of times --
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
Speculation.
10
THE COURT:
Overruled.
You need to let him
11
finish his answer.
12
So you could proceed.
13
THE WITNESS:
"There were times ... "
There were plenty of times that
14
they were at my house together.
15
time that they originally met.
16
(BY MS. KERSEY)
17
Scott and Phil.
18
Q At your house?
19
At my mom's house.
20
Okay.
I don't know the first
When you say "they were" --
During family events?
21
22
Family events.
23
So was
I'm just trying to get the gist of the
24
relationship.
25
why would Phil be at your mother's house?
26
Was Phil -- would Phil be at your -- or
He'd come over, like, after work or at night and
27
kinda study because Liz and Tony and my brothers were all
28
taking classes with him, and he'd come over there.
Lisa
36
4
would be there all the time.
And then also when Lisa had
her open heart surgery, he was there continuously.
So he was at the hospital, you mean?
At the hospital and when Lisa went home.
So how much contact, if you recall, did Scott
Harrison have with Phil Perry?
Quite a bit.
Now, when you asked Scott to do this for you, you
told him to be what?
lO
Aggressive.
II
Did you give him any further instructions, other
l2
l3
l4
than be aggressive?
A
If he had to, slap him around, to let him know that
he was serious.
l5
Serious about what?
l6
What he said, about staying away from me and Lisa.
l7
Now, was anybody present during that conversation?
l8
Liz.
19
Can you -- when did that occur?
20
I think the day
no, it was a few days ago -- a
It was the last time that Scott Harrison
2l
few days prior.
22
was down in Rancho that Liz and all of us met.
23
Now, you said that you asked Liz for this favor?
24
Uh-huh.
25
Was that face-to-face?
26
Uh-huh.
27
"Yean?
28
Yes.
37
4
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
3
4
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Is that "yes"?
Xes.
And you asked Scott for this favor
and that was face-to-face?
Yes.
Was that at the same time you were talking to him or
was it separately?
It was at the same time.
How -- did you give Liz any direction as far as how
10
to meet with Phil Perry?
11
How to meet with Phil?
12
How to arrange this meeting.
13
No.
14
Did you ever talk to -- or did you ever ask her to
15
make an appointment with Phil?
16
Well, that I did, yes.
17
Now, was that supposed to be the meeting?
18
Yes.
19
You know, perhaps I should just ask it this way:
20
21
22
What was the plan?

A
The plan was for them just to -- to set up a meeting
and go meet with him at the church.
23
Why at the church?
24
'Cause that's where he was always at usually.
25
believe it was that night he was -- he did either -- I
26
think he had his class that night at the church.
27
28
So this is the night of the -- the 13th, the
surgery?
38
4
Uh-huh.
"Yes ll ?
Yes.
So did you tell Liz to make the appointment for
5
6
7
8
9
He went to -- he went to the church.
Monday?
A
I didn't tell her -- I just told her to make an
appointment.
Did you know when the appointment was going to
happen?
10
Yes.
11
Was that Monday?
12
Yes.
13
The day you were going to be at the hospital?
14
Yes.
15
Did you know or talk to Liz about what time the
16
appointment was supposed to be at?
17
Yes.
18
Okay.
What was that conversation?
19
20
21
Just mainly I told her to make sure it was in the
evening.
22
Why?
23
Because he had -- I believe he had -- he had to
24
go -- by the time he got off work and he drove from
25
Pasadena and by the time I got horne with Elise and
26
27
28
. everything else
Q
So you basically wanted to be covered during the
time of the appointment?
39
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
3
4
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
Did you want -- did you want to be
somewhere else at the time of the appointment?
Yes.
Now, how -- do you know how Scott Harrison arrived
in town, in Rancho?
On the train.
How do you know that?
10
'Cause he told me he was coming down on the
11
Metro- -- not Metrolink -- the Amtrak.
12
Did you pick him up?
13
No.
14
Do you know who picked him up?
15
Liz Minor.
16
17
Because I told her to go pick him up.
18
Is that a couple days before or the day of or --
19
The day it was -- I believe the day of.
20
Was that already
21
22
23
24
25
was that arranged already, too,
for the day of?

A
For him to come down?
Yes.
When we discussed this,
he knew that that day he was coming down.

Q
So -- and the discussion you're referring to was two
days ahead?
26
Yes.
27
So going back to the two days ahead of the day that
28
Deacon Perry was killed, can you describe for us the
40
l
2
plan, what you told these people?

A
The plan was to go meet with Phil Perry and tell him
to leave me and Lisa alone and, if he needed to, be very
aggressive with Phil.
5
6
Well, when you said that to Scott Harrison, you knew
he carried a gun?
Yes.
And did you know that he would -- well, did you have
lO
II
l2
l3
l4
l5
any idea whether he would carry a gun for that meeting?

A
I believed he would because he carried it everywhere
he went.
Q
Now, why did you ask Scott Harrison to do this for
you?
A
Well, I just -- I wanted him to go there 'cause I
knew he was more the aggressor than Liz and --
l6
You mean Scott Harrison?
l7
Scott Harrison.
l8
19
20
be with Liz, he would intimidate Phil.
23
MR. BOYCE:
26
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Objection.
Leading.
Did you ask Scott Harrison to do
this because he carried a gun?

MR. BOYCE:
24
25
Is there some reason you chose Scott Harrison,
somebody you knew to carry a gun --
2l
22
So I knew when he -- when he would
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Objection.
Leading.
Just explain to me why Scott
Harrison.
27
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
28
THE COURT:
Overruled.
Asked and answered.
41
5
THE WITNESS:
Because Scott Harrison was my
friend at the time and at the same time he was very upset
with Phil Perry, and I knew that he was
to get the point across to Phil.
would be able
(BY MS. KERSEY)
To leave us alone.
When you asked Scott Harrison to do this for you,
And "the point across" being?
did you anticipate a murder?
Absolutely not.
10
Did you ever say to Scott Harrison, you know,
11
you __
12
aggressive?"
II
for instance ,,-- be rough with him and
13
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
14
THE COURT:
Sustained.
15
16
"will
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
Did you ever say to Scott Harrison,
"Don't kill Phil Perry"?
17
No.
18
Did you -- I mean, you knew about Liz Minor making
19
the appointment, but did you know about the details of
20
making the appointment before that Monday?
21
time, how she was going to get there, for instance?
22
Anything -- any other details?

No.
Location,
23
That was between -- pretty much between Liz and
24
Scott.
25
Why do you say that?
26
Because I did not know how they were going to go
27
meet with Phil.
I knew that they were going to meet Phil
28
at the church, and that was it.
I didn't know, like,
42
5
who -- what car they were using or what car they were
going in.
3
4
On that particular Monday you said that you were --
you were at the hospital with Elise, correct?
Correct.
I'm going to show you Exhibit 61 down here halfway
through the stack.

Is this your signature here?
8
9
That's correct.
10
Is this the admission paperwork for Elise, your
11
daughter?
12
Yes.
13
And what time did you sign that?
14
At 7:55 a.m.
15
So you were at the hospital to sign that?
16
Yes.
17
I want to go to the point of time in which you got
18
home from the hospital.

You say you received a call from Liz at the
19
20
house?
21
Yes.
22
What did she say?
23
She said, "Scott killed Phil."
24
What -- did you leave the house after that?
25
No.
26
Did you do anything with that information?
27
No.
28
I -- I just sat down.
couldn't believe it.
I was shocked.
43
5
Did she give you any other details, other than Scott
,,~
killed Phil?
No.
Did you ask her where Phil was?
No.
So that was it?
Uh-huh.
Is that "yes"?
Yes.
10
So you went to bed?
11
Later on.
12
What did you do the next day?
13
Went to Liz's house where Scott was at.
14
When we're talking about "Liz's house"
15
Liz's apartment on Ninth Street.
16
How did you know Scott was at the apartment?
17
'Cause that's where he stayed at that night.
She was crying and hysterical.
That's all the conversation?
That
18
was arranged, that he -- that Liz was going to have him
19
stay at the apartment.
20
When was that arranged?
21
When she picked him up.
22
From?
23
Union Station.
24
So you knew that she was going to pick him up from
25
26
Union Station?
A
Uh-huh.
27
THE COURT:
28
THE WITNESS:
Is that "yes"?
Yes, 'cause I told her to pick him
44
5
2
3
up from Union Station.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
And you knew he was going to stay
the night -A
At Liz's house.
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
Foundation, hearsay.
THE COURT:
It's overruled.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
So the next morning you then go to
Liz and Robert's apartment?
Apartment, yes.
lO
And who was at the apartment?
II
Liz, Bob, their children, Scott, Liz's girlfriend
12
that she was going to Missouri with and her kids.
13
Could it have been Utah?
14
Maybe Utah, yes.
15
And her kids?
16
Uh-huh.
17
THE COURT:
18
THE WITNESS:
19
THE COURT:
Thank you.
20
MR. BOYCE:
"Her kids"?
21
MS. KERSEY:
22
23
Is that "yes"?
Yes.
Obj ection.
Vague.
I could clarify.
(BY MS. KERSEY) So at the apartment we have Liz and
Bob?
24
Yes.
25
Their children?
26
Yes.
27
How many kids did they have?
28
At that time it was -- I'm not quite sure if Aaron
45
6
was born yet.
I think Aaron was born.
So there was more
There was three.
Three?
And you said Scott?
Scott.
And then you said "Liz's friend"?
Dh-huh.
Do you know her name?
10
I don't remember her name.
11
And the friend's kids?
12
Yes.
13
What time, about, did you go to -- what time did you
14
15
16
go to the apartment?
A
It was early.
morning.
I don't recall.
I don't recall.
17
How did you get there?
18
I drove.
19
What did you drive?
20
My car.
21
Which one?
22
The Mercedes.
23
Thank you.
The Mercedes 190.
Once you arrived at the apartment, what happened?
24
25
I went and knocked on the door.
26
that talked to me was Liz.
27
me.
28
It was early
You were alone?
The first person
She came outside to talk to
46
6
Yes.
What did you talk about?
Liz came outside and said that they went and met
Phil at the -- she pretty much ran down what took place.
She went and met with Phil.
told phil that -- urn, told -- I think it was the
priest -- that they had a meeting with Phil.
and got Phil.
that she had car trouble and went around there --
She knocked on the door,
They went
They took Phil out to his car and said
10
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
11
THE COURT:
That statement is for co-conspirator,
12
so overruled on that basis.
13
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Let me break it down a little bit.
Was part of the plan that she was going to say
14
15
Hearsay.
her car was broke down?
16
Yes.
17
So you knew about that ahead of time?
18
Yes.
19
Did you know where -- or any of the details as to
20
where her car would be broken down at?
21
No.
22
But that was the plan as far as her asking Phil out
23
of the church?
24
Correct.
25
Do you know if Phil Perry had ever met Liz, your
26
27
28
sister?
A
Yes.
Liz was attending his religious classes, plus
she met Phil quite. a bit at our house, my mom's house.
47
6
All right.
So back at the apartment the following day Liz
comes out, you were discussing what happened the night
before; is that correct?
That's correct.
Now, does she ever tell you where the body is?
Yes.
Where did she tell you the body was?
It was in his car in the condo.
10
Phil's car?
11
Phil's car.
12
Was -- is that the first time you had heard that
13
Phil's car and Phil were in the condo?
14
Yes.
15
Well, the night before you didn't have any
16
information about where he was?
17
No.
18
So after talking to Liz for a little while out
19
front, what happened?
20
Scott came out.
21
Did you talk to Scott?
22
Uh-huh.
23
Q Yes?
24
Yes.
25
And was Liz present while you were talking to Scott?
26
Yes.
27
What did you talk to Scott about?
28
Scott just said things got out of hand and he got --
48
6
1
2
3
and Phil's dead.

Q
Did Scott at that point indicate whether or not he
had killed Phil?
Yes.
What did he say?
"I shot Phil."
Did he say why?
No.
What did you do after that?
10
We all went to breakfast.
11
Was that at Spires?
12
Yes.
13
Where is Spires?
14
On Haven and Foothill -- or a little -- it's off
15
it's not exactly on that street corner but it's --
16
Who went to breakfast?
17
Everybody that was at the apartment.
18
Okay.
So everybody you named -- Liz, Bob, Scott, Liz's
19
20
friend
21
Uh-huh.
22
-- you and the kids?
23
Uh-huh.
24
THE COURT:
25
THE WITNESS:
26
THE COURT:
27
THE WITNESS:
28
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Is that "yes"?
Yes.
Thank you.
Sorry.
Showing you what's been marked as
49
6
Exhibit 14, does that look familiar to you?

A
Yes.
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
THE COURT:
It's overruled.
Foundation.
I'm sure she is
going to lay it with the next question.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Yes.
What is it?
That's a receipt from Spires Restaurant.
10
And is that your receipt?
11
Yes.
12
Did you save that?
13
Yes.
14
Why?
15
For tax purposes.
16
Okay.
17
18
It looks familiar?
So this indicates April 14th, seven guests?

A
Yes.
19
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
20
THE COURT:
In terms of -- I didn't hear the last
21
thing that you read off, Miss Kersey.
22
MS. KERSEY:
23
THE COURT:
24
Foundation, hearsay.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
You said
April 14th, seven guests.

It's overruled.
So this is the morning -- the
25
morning after Phil Perry's killed, all of you then. go to
26
breakfast?
27
Correct.
28
And do you discuss the -- well, now that you know,
50
7
the murder at breakfast?
No.
Does anything unusual happen while at breakfast or
did you guys just eat and leave?
We ate and we all ended up going to the condo.
When you talk about "we all," let's get some names
here.
Bob Minor, Scott Harrison, Liz Minor and myself.
Okay.
So Liz, Bob, Scott and you?
10
11
Uh-huh.
12
Just so we're clear, you're calling him Bob.
13
That's
Robert Minor?
14
Robert Minor.
15
At what point did you ask Bob to go with you to the
16
condo?
17
Then.
18
At breakfast?
19
Right there at breakfast.
20
Did you tell him why at that point?
21
Bob already knew.
22
How did Bob know, if you know?
23
Bob knew from them at the house, Liz and Scott
24
25
26
staying at the apartment.

Q
When you say he already knew, he knew that Deacon
Perry was dead?
27
Uh-huh, yes.
28
Okay.
51
7
So he then went -- from breakfast, all four of
you go back to the condo?
Correct.
What happened at the condo?
Well, that's when Liz and I went upstairs and we
started arguing.
Just -- just you and Liz?
At that point, yes.
When you're talking about "upstairs," just so I have
10
11
a visual, is this a 2-story condo?

A
Well, yes,
'cause the garage was downstairs, then
12
you had stairs that went up to where the living room and
13
the bedrooms and kitchen were at.
14
15
So you and Liz are. then in the living area of the
condominium?
16
Correct.
17
How did you enter the condo?
18
Through the garage.
19
When you entered through the garage, did you see
20
anything?
21
Phil Perry's car.
22
Did you recognize the car?
23
Yes.
24
Did you look inside the car?
25
Not at that point.
26
Did anybody stop and look inside the car?
27
Bob -- Bob and Scott stayed in the garage, so I
28
don't know what they did at that time.
52
7
So you and Liz then went upstairs?
We went upstairs.
What happened upstairs while you were arguing?
She said that, urn, she was leaving and she was not
going to take the body down to Mexico.
Now, your -- when was Mexico discussed?
That was between her and Scott.
They wanted to go
drop the body off down in Tijuana and then have Scott
dropped off at Point Lorna.
10
So as far as you knew,they had discussed -- Liz and
11
Scott had discussed Mexico before you came over in the
12
morning to the apartment?
13
Correct.
14
So when did you first hear about Mexico then?
15
Right then and there when Liz was talking about it.
16
And what was your discussion about with Liz on the
17
18
body issue?
A
She said,
"You and --" "You and Bob are going to go
19
with Scott and the body and take it down to Mexico
20
because I'm leaving to go to Utah."
21
Where was the girlfriend and her kids?
22
I think she took the car to go get gas or something
23
because she ended up coming back and picking Liz up.
24
"She" meaning the girlfriend
25
The girlfriend, yes.
26
27
At the condo.
28
So once Liz is gone, it's you, Bob and Scott at the
picked Liz up at the condo?
53
condo?
Correct.
Do you talk to Scott and Bob?
About?
About going to Mexico.
Yes.
Tell us about that discussion.
That discussion was that, urn, Bob and I would be in
10
the Jeep, the white Jeep, and Scott was going to drive
Phil's car down to Mexico.
11
Why Mexico?
12
Tijuana, actually.
13
Was there any discussion about where to leave the
14
15
I don't -- I have no idea why.
car in Tijuana?
A
No, because as soon as we went across the border,
16
they found an empty street and we just pulled over,
17
stopped, and left it there.
18
19
Now, why was Scott going to drive the Chrysler, not
you, for instance?
20
Oh, I wasn't gonna drive it.
21
Why not?
22
I refused to.
23
Well, was there some kind of discussion in the condo
24
in the garage?
25
Yes.
26
What was that?
27
Over who was going to drive the car, and -- and I
28
said "I'm not driving it."
54
7
What about Bob?
Was he gonna drive it?
At first Bob said he would drive it.
Bob was
scared.
I was scared.
I mean --
Why were you scared?
Because you've got a dead body in the car.
But this is your best friend.
Well--
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
10
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Argumentative.
What I'm trying to get to, Mr.
11
Ditommaso, is you find out that Scott Harrison has killed
12
Phil Perry, and now there is a discussion about taking
13
the body down to Tijuana and it's just --
14
MR. BOYCE:
15
MS. KERSEY:
16
THE COURT:
I haven't heard the question yet,
MR. BOYCE:
Well, that's --
17
20
21
(BY MS. KERSEY)
There had to have been a discussion
Uh-huh.
THE COURT:
23
THE WITNESS:
25
Well, I'm getting to my question.
in the garage about the body, right?
22
24
Argumentative, leading.
so ...
18
19
Objection.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Is that "yes"?
Yes.
Can you tell me about that
discussion?
26
You mean about where we were taking the body?
27
Yes.
28
Yeah, it was discussed.
It was already set that
55
8
they were taking it to Mexico.
Who said that?
Scott said it.
So whose idea was it?
MR. BOYCE:
Objection
THE WITNESS:
MR. BOYCE:
Withdrawn.
THE COURT:
Thank you.
THE WITNESS:
I don't know.
It was either -- it was done prior.
10
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
11
THE COURT:
Sustained.
12
Next question.
13
14
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Nonresponsive.
So it sounds like, Mr. Ditommaso,
the decision to go to Mexico was already made.
15
Correct.
16
So you went along with it, in other words?
17
Yes.
18
What about Bob?
19
Yes.
20
So you moved from where you're going to take the
21
Did he go along with it?
body right away to who's going to drive the car?
22
Correct.
23
Did you look at some point while in the garage at
24
the body?
25
I opened the door.
26
What door?
27
The back door of the Chrysler.
28
What did you see?
56
8
2
3
4
5
6
Well, there was a bunch of bags on top of him, so
you couldn't really see him.

Q
You saw -- I saw a foot.
Now, when you're saying "a bunch .of bags," do you
know how the bags .got on top of Mr. Perry?

A
Scott was taking them out of the trunk and putting
them on the back seat.
Did you see him do that?
At the end -- the final last few I did when I came
downstairs from being with Liz.
10
So Scott was making an effort to conceal Mr. Perry?
11
Correct.
12
What was Mr. Minor doing at that time?
13
Helping him.
14
How was he helping him?
15
Grabbing the bags out of the trunk.
16
Looking at Exhibit 27, does that look familiar to
17
you?
18
Yes.
19
Why is that familiar?
20
That's Phil's car.
21
Is that Phil's body?
22
Yes.
23
Now, looking at Exhibit 30, can you describe that
24
25
26
27
28
for the jurors?

A
It's the back seat of Mr. Perry's car with clothes
and a black bag of -- that's how I saw it in Liz's condo.

Q
So when you first saw Mr. Perry, that's how you saw
him in the sense of the clothes were on top of Mr. Perry?
57
8
I know I misspoke that, but --
Yes.
And there's a black Hefty bag.
4
5
on the back seat of the car?

A
Yes.
MR. BOYCE:
6
7
MS. KERSEY:
Is it 31?
10
12
For the record, what exhibit is that,
counsel?
11
Is that what you saw
THE WITNESS:
(BY MS. KERSEY)
I'm sorry.
I'll get it.
Yes.
Now, when you said you "opened the
back door" --
13
Correct.
14
-- passenger side or driver's side?
15
Driver's side.
16
And that's where you saw his feet?
17
Correct.
18
So looking at Exhibit 26, what is that?
19
It's a picture of Phil Perry.
20
In the back seat of the car?
21
In the back seat of the car.
22
And where are his feet?
23
On top of the seat.
24
Is that the driver's side or the passenger side?
25
Driver's side.
26
27
28
MR. BOYCE:
I'm sorry.
What exhibit number was
that, your Honor?

THE COURT:
Court Exhibit, again, No. --
58
8
MS. KERSEY:
THE COURT:
3
4
(BY MS. KERSEY)
The trunk.
The Hefty bags?
The trunk.
All of them?
Uh-huh.
10
Is that lIyes"?
11
Yes.
12
THE COURT:
MS. KERSEY:
15
THE COURT:
16
MS. KERSEY:
17
THE COURT:
18
MS. KERSEY:
19
Okay.
They've been up there for awhile.
Could I take this down?
Sure.
Could you hold those, please?
I think I need to go to a craft store and get

more.
22
THE COURT:
there.
24
25
You could take the other two exhibits
(Pause)
20
23
Now, do you know where these
down if you want.
14
21
-- 26.
clothes came from?
13
That was 26.
The red ones are the strongest, obviously.

MS. KERSEY:
There are a couple more in the corner
(BY MS. KERSEY)
There.
Now, did you -- did you ever notice
26
whether or not any of the blood was spilling out of the
27
car?
28
Yes.
It was not spilling out of the car.
It was --
59
8
when the car was pulled out, there was some. blood in Liz
and Bob's garage.
In the condo garage?
The condo garage, yes.
Did you ever make an effort to find the bullet?
No.
Do you recall a discussion between Bob and Scott
about trying to find the bullet?
Yes, they talked about it.
10
When did that happen?
11
In the garage.
12
Were they trying to move, urn, Mr. Perry's body?
13
They moved it, yes, but they could not actually move
14
it 'cause I guess it was stuck in the seat or something.
15
Where were they going to move him to?
16
The trunk.
17
Did you -- did you touch Phil Perry?
18
Did I personally touch him?
19
Yes.
20
No.
21
Did you touch any of the bags, clothing, or anything
22
like that?
23
Yes.
24
Did you help cover him up?
25
No.
26
Why would you touch the bags or how did you do that?
27
It's when the bags were on the floor of the garage
28
before they actually, urn, put the last -- the last black
60
9
ones in.
Q
Okay.
So the bags were already taken from the trunk and
3
4
put on the floor?
Correct.
But you didn't move the bags to the back seat?
No.
Who did that?
Scott and Bob.
10
I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit
11
5.
12
Does that look familiar?
13
That's the condo garage.
14
And Exhibit 6?
15
That's inside of the condo garage.
16
And this is where Phil Perry's car was parked?
17
That's correct.
18
Did you see blood on the outside of the car?
19
No.
20
Did you see blood on the inside of the car?
21
No, not on the driver's side I didn't.
22
Did you ever walk around to the other side of the
23
car where Phil Perry's head was?
24
No,
25
Did you ever ask Scott Harrison where he shot him at
26
I didn't, only when the car was pulled out.
on his body?
27
I don't recall.
28
Was there a discussion in the garage as to why Scott
61
9
Harrison shot Phil Perry?
Scott just said things got out of hand.
So he shot him?
Yes.
Now, at -- somebody must -- did somebody ask Robert
6
7
Minor to go to Mexico?
A
The initial -- the initial was -- Liz said that --
up in the condo -- Bob, myself and Scott were going to
go.
10
So she -- was she originally going to go?
11
Yes.
12
Did you ever talk to Bob about whether or not he
13
wanted to go to Mexico?
14
Yes.
Bob said he would go.
15
Did you have to give Bob anything to go to Mexico?
16
As far as -- you mean money?
17
Money or --
18
No.
19
-- presents, anything.
20
No.
21
Was Bob working at that time?
22
No.
23
Did he owe you any money?
don't recall him owing me
25
family at the time, so -- I mean, I know I did help them
26
out occasionally with food and tried to help them out
27
with the rent and that sort of stuff.
28
Do you recall ever talking to Bob and telling him,
62
9
you know, to do this with you and he wouldn't have to pay
back -- I don't know
I think it was a hundred bucks?
No, I don't recall that at all.
So how were you going to get down to Mexico?
We were going to drive.
What were you going to drive?
The Jeep.
Why the Jeep?
That's the car that Bob and Liz were using.
10
They
were purchasing that car from me at the time.
11
Were they making payments on it?
12
No.
13
When you say they were purchasing it, what do you
14
15
mean by that?
A
They were supposed to -- they wanted me to pay the
16
payments to the bank, but they were going to make the
17
payments to me.
18
So they were using the Jeep?
19
Yes.
20
Now, there was, urn, some information about a letter
21
that was written regarding the Jeep and that purchase.

Do you recall that?
22
23
Correct.
24
I'm going to show you what's been marked as 57.
25
your mother write this note?
26
you.
27
28
I'm going to show it to
Yes.
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
Leading.
Did
63
9
(BY MS. KERSEY)
I'm going to show it to you.
THE COURT:
It's foundational.
MR. BOYCE:
Sorry.
THE WITNESS:
(BY MS. KERSEY)
that?
No.
Okay.
Withdrawn.
Yes.
Did you ask your mother to write
Well, what was the purpose of this?
10
It's overruled.
Robert -- Robert asked her to write it because he
11
didn't know how to put it in words 'cause we were trying
12
to get the insurance transferred over to his name
13
because they would not insure the Jeep with Bob anymore
14
since Bob was driving it.
15
16
Did you know where this note was stored after it was
written?
17
No,
18
Now, the note was specific as to the date of April
19
14th.
20
I didn't.
Do you recall reading that?
10
21
Yes, I saw the April 14th.
22
Do you know if it was written on April 14th?
23
I don't recall.
24
Now, were you
I guess I'll just ask it this way:
25
Was the purpose of that note, written by your mother, to
26
put the Jeep in Robert's possession for April 14th?
27
28
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
Leading and calls for
speculation as to what Nina Brambila intended.
64
10
THE COURT:
MS~
3
4
KERSEY:
Sustained.
I could rephrase it.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Did you tell Nina
that's your
mother -- to write that letter for that specific date?
No.
Did you direct Nina at all to write that note?
No.
Did you even know about it?
Yes, I did.
10
How did you know about it?
11
Because I asked Robert to get
12
13
14
to write it, and
Robert asked my mother to write it.

Q
About what time would you say you were at the condo
after breakfast?
15
In the morning.
16
How long, if you recall, were you at the condo with
17
I don't know what exact time.
Scott and Bob and Liz?
18
Maybe 45 minutes to an hour.
19
Did -- were you ever -- were you ever threatened in
20
any way to go to Mexico?
21
Yes.
22
Who threatened you?
23
Mr. Harrison.
24
In what way?
25
He said I had to go.
26
Anything else?
27
He said if I didn't go, he was going to hurt Elise,
28
which was my stepdaughter.
65
10
Did he say anything to Robert about going to Mexico?
Yes.
What did he say to Robert?
The same thing, that he had to go to Mexico.
Did you say no?
No.
Would you say no after you see a dead body in
the garage?
What about Robert?
No.
10
So at that point Harrison's going to drive the
11
Did he say no?
Chrysler?
12
Correct.
13
And you have the Jeep or Robert has the Jeep?
14
Robert has the Jeep.
15
So how do you leave the condo?
16
17
18
Which direction do
you go?
A
I went and took the Mercedes down to the office,
which is down the street on Archibald and Arrow.
19
Did they go with you?
20
Yeah.
21
What happened at the office?
22
I -- we all went in the office.
I went inside.
23
think I made a couple calls or something or checked
24
something, then we left.
25
26
I left the car there.
Now, was there -- were there any letters written to
Father John and Mrs. Perry?
27
Yes, there was.
28
When were those written?
66
10
them.
Was it after the murder or before?
I think the -- I don't know when the actual letters
I don't recall when those were written, but I mailed
were written.
Were they written in preparation of this event?
No.
I think it was afterward.
It was to try to
cover it up.
So who wrote the letters?
10
Scott wrote them.
11
Where did he write them?
12
At the office.
13
So did he write them at the office after you left
14
the condo?
15
Yes.
16
Were you there?
17
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
18
THE COURT:
Sustained.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
19
When were the letters written?
20
At the office.
21
When?
22
After the murder.
23
So was that -- you mean - - did you go from - -
24
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
25
THE COURT:
Rephrase.
26
27
28
(BY MS. KERSEY)
office directly?
A
Yes.
Leading.
Did you go from the condo to the
67
10
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Probably about 45 minutes.
It's foundational.
How long were you at the office?
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
Asked and answered.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Me, Bob and Scott.
And that's when you dropped your Mercedes off?
10
Uh-huh.
11
Is that "yes"?
12
Yes.
13
You said these letters were written for what
14
Who all went to the office?
purpose?
15
To cover it up, his disappearance.
16
Looking at Exhibit 16, does that look familiar to
17
you?
18
Yes.
19
Why is it familiar?
20
'Cause it's the letter that was written to Tina.
21
And Exhibit 44, does that look familiar to you?
22
Yes.
23
Why is it familiar?
24
That's the letter that was written to John
25
26
27
28
Fahnestock.
Q
Now,
I notice that they're both dated April 2nd,
, 92 .
Who dated those?
68
10
I don't recall.
I mean, who -- somebody had to type them.
them?
Who typed
Scott typed them on Lisa's memory typewriter at the
office.
What were you doing while he was typing them?
I was in my office.
Whose idea was it to write the letters?
I don't remember who -- what was the reason.
10
I know
it was to cover up his disappearance.
11
So once the letters are written, did you read them?
12
Yes, I read them.
13
So Scott Harrison types them, you read them, then
14
what happens?
15
They were left at the office.
16
Now, who wrote
17
I don't know who signed them.
18
So they were left at your office?
19
Yes.
20
Now, when you -- when you left -- well, let me get
who signed it on 16 and 44?

I don't remember.
11
21
another exhibit.
When they were left at the office, were they put
22
23
in envelopes?
24
Yes.
25
26
16, which contains two envelopes.
Do these look familiar?
27
28
Yes.
69
11
What are those?
Envelopes addressed to Tina Perry and St. Joseph's
Church.
Who typed up the envelopes?
Scott.
Scott Harrison?
Yes.
The letters were placed inside the envelopes?
Correct.
10
Did you place them in the envelopes?
11
Yes.
12
When you say you mailed them, do you mean you
13
And I mailed them.
physically put them in a mailbox?
14
When we got back, yes.
15
Okay.
So it wasn't, like, left for the mailman to come
16
17
18
19
by the business?
A
No, it was a physical mailbox that was on the street
corner of Archibald, right outside the office complex.
20
Did you lick the stamps for those two envelopes?
21
Yes.
22
Do you know who licked the envelopes?
23
I don't -- I think I did.
24
Do you remember licking the stamps --
25
Yes.
26
-- and physically putting them in a mailbox?
27
And putting them in the mailbox.
28
But you didn't mail them until after you came back
70
11
from Mexico?
Correct.
Was it the same day?
Yes.
Now, after -- you said that you were at the business
for about 45 minutes?
Correct.
Did Scott and Robert stay the entire time at the
business?
10
Yes.
11
So after about 45 minutes, the letters have been
12
written, what happens?
13
We leave.
14
What is the plan?
15
We went through -- urn,
I'm trying to remember -- it

It had a car wash.
We filled
16
was a Mobile gas station.
17
the cars up and the cars got washed -- well, Phil's car
18
got washed.
19
Was that on Haven Avenue in Rancho?
20
I believe so, yes.
21
So both cars were gassed up?
22
Yes.
23
When we're talking about both cars, what is "both
24
cars"?
25
26
Jeep.
27
Who was driving the Jeep?
28
I believe it was Robert.
It would be Phil's car, the Chrysler, and the white
71
11
Were you in the Jeep?
Yes.
And Scott Harrison was driving the Chrysler?
Yes.
So did you both pull into the gas station at the
same time?
Correct.
After filling up the gas tanks and having -- was it
the exterior washed?
10
Yes.
11
After that was done, what happened?
12
We got on the freeway, on the 15 Freeway, and went
13
to Tijuana.
14
Any stops along the way?
15
I don't recall any stops on the way.
16
When you went down to Tijuana, did you -- I mean,
17
were you staying behind or were you the lead car?
18
We were behind.
19
Once you crossed the border, what did you do?
20
We drove, and then Scott found the street, turned
21
down the street, and we just followed him and parked.
22
got out, wiped the car down.
23
Who?
24
Scott.
25
So that's something you observed?
26
Uh-huh.
27
Is that "yes"?
28
Yes.
He
72
11
I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 12.
2
3
4
5
Does that area look familiar?
Yes, it looks like where the car was left in
Tijuana.
So when you say you -- urn, you pulled -- you pulled
up on some kind of street, you saw Scott get out of the
Chrysler
Is that yes"?
10
Yes.
11
What did you do during that time?
12
We, me and -- Bob and I were still in the Jeep
13
behind him.
14
So did you just park?
15
We parked.
16
Did you get out of the Jeep?
17
No.
18
Did Robert get out of the Jeep?
19
No.
20
You just waited?
21
We waited.
22
What did you see Scott doing?
23
Just wiped off the door handle.
24
With what?
25
It was a rag.
26
Was there any discussion about where to put the
27
28
ignition keys to the Chrysler?

A
No.
73
11
Do you know that they were left in the ignition?
Yes.
Was there a reason for that?
I don't know.
When you were in Mexico, you never got out of the
Jeep?
I don't recall getting out of the Jeep, no.
Did you ever look in the front portion of the car?
In the where?
10
In the driver's compartment.
11
No.
12
When you said you saw Scott Harrison wiping down the
13
car, did you see him do anything else?
14
Yes.
15
Off the Chrysler?
16
Yes.
17
Had that been discussed prior to dropping the car
18
He took the license plates off.
off?
19
No.
20
Was there any discussion about trying to make it
21
look like -- or so it would take a long time for the
22
authorities to identify Phil?
23
I believe so.
24
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
25
THE COURT:
Overruled.
26
MR. BOYCE:
I'm sorry.
27
THE COURT:
Overruled.
28
THE WITNESS:
Leading.
12
What was the ruling?
I believe that was the whole
74
12
1
2
purpose of the car going to Mexico.

Q
(BY MS. KERSEY)
I mean, was there a specific
discussion about taking the car to Mexico for that
reason?
Not in front of me.
MR. BOYCE:
Ob-
THE COURT:
Did you want to withdraw it or --
MR. BOYCE:
Withdrawn.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
When the car was left in -- was
10
there ever any discussion about removing personal
11
identifying items out of the car, you know, like
12
registration, insurance, things like that?
13
No, just his -- I know that the wallet was taken.
14
What do you mean?
15
Phil Perry's wallet.
16
17
Because that's what the cars were gassed up on.
18
Did you see it?
19
Yes.
20
Who had it?
21
His credit card?
22
When you said Scott had his credit card, did he have
23
24
25
What wallet?
Scott had his credit card.
his whole wallet or just the card?

A
Just the credit card.
That's what was used, the
Mobile card, for gas.
26
Was that card used again?
27
Yes, on the way back to fill the Jeep up.
28
Was there any discussion about the plan as far as
75
12
making it look like Phil had -- I mean, we've talked
about the letters -- had just left town?
Yes.
What about leaving the car in Mexico?
of it?
Yes, that was part of it.
Do you know if Scott Harrison took the registration
That's the reason for the letters.

Was that part
out of the glove box?
I don't recall.
10
But you know he took the license plates?
11
Yes.
12
Did you see what he did with the license plates?
13
I believe he wrapped them in a towel and handed them
14
to Bob.
15
When did that occur?
16
When he was getting into the Jeep.
17
In Tijuana?
18
In Tijuana.
19
Do you know what Bob did with the license plates?
20
He disposed of them when we got back to Rancho.
21
Did you tell him to get rid of them?
22
No.
23
them.
24
He was already -- he knew he had to get rid of
When you and Bob were driving down to Tijuana
25
following Scott Harrison in the Chrysler, did you and Bob
26
talk about what had happened?
27
Yeah.
28
What did you talk about?
76
12
MR. BOYCE:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
Objection.
Bob--
Sustained at this time.

(Pause)
Actually, it's overruled based on co-conspirator
5
6
Hearsay.
statements.
MR. BOYCE:
It's after the fact.
THE COURT:
No, it isn't.
THE WITNESS:
10
11
12
It's overruled.
Bob was disclosing what he'd heard
from Liz and Scott that night that the murder took place.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
So Bob heard Liz and Scott talking
about the murder at the apartment?
13
Yes.
14
So he was just filling you in?
15
Yes, because he said Liz was totally hysterical when
16
she got home and he didn't know why and finally he
17
overheard them, her and Scott, talking that night.
18
About murdering Mr. Perry?
19
Murdering Mr. Perry.

THE COURT:
20
21
Let's take a recess for about 10
minutes.
22
MS. KERSEY:
23
THE COURT:
Okay.
You are admonished not to discuss the
24
case among yourselves or with anyone else, nor form or
25
express an opinion until the cause is finally submitted
26
to you.
27
28
Let's take about a 10-minute recess so I could

rest my court reporter's fingers.
Get up and stretch,
77
12
then come back in about 10 minutes.
2
(Recess taken)
3
4
THE COURT:
Okay.
We're back on the matter of
People vs. Scott Harrison, who is present with Mr. Boyce.
Miss Kersey is present.
The jurors and alternates are presently constituted.

We are on the direct examination of Mr.
9
10
Ditommaso, and you may resume.
11
MS. KERSEY:
12
THE COURT:
13
Thank you.
You're welcome.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Where we left off, Mr. Ditommaso,
14
you were in Mexico and you saw Scott Harrison take the
15
plates off of the Chrysler.
16
Correct.
17
Did he get into the Jeep then?
18
Yes.
19
About what time of day were you dropping the car off
20
21
22
23
24
in Tijuana?
A
I'd say in the early -- about -- somewhere in the
afternoon, early afternoon.

Q
When Scott Harrison got into the Jeep, where did he
sit?
25
In the back.
26
We haven't talked about this yet, but at some point
27
28
did you see a weapon?

A
A gun?-
There was a gun in the center console.
78
12
Who put it there?
I don't know if it was Scott's or -- the one that he
3
4
carried -- or if it was Bob's.

Q
Now, let's talk about this gun.

You're talking about the center console of the
Jeep, right?
13
7
Yes.
What kind of gun was it?
I believe it was a revolver.
10
And you're saying you don't know whose it was.
11
12
13
Had
you not seen it before?

A
Correct.
Because the one that Scott had was a
.380,
a black .380.
14
A pistol?
15
Pistol.
16
When you're talking about a black .380, was that the
17
gun that was kept in the pouch?
18
Yes.
19
This gun that you saw, was it in a pouch?
20
This
revolver?
21
Yes.
22
What kind of pouch?
23
It was a green one.
24
Was it similar to what you carried and Scott
25
carried?
26
No.
27
Okay.
28
It was a regular gun carry bag.
You're going to have to explain to me what a
79
13
1
2
3
"regular gun carry bag" is.

A
It's the one that has a zipper around -- it just
pops up like that (indicating).
So it's made for a weapon?
Made for a weapon.
And the pouch that you carried was
It was more like an attache case.
It had zippers
like this and -- it was a bag, and you put your credit
cards, your money, in the front part, then it had a part
10
that was open so you could insert something big inside.
11
So this revolver was in a revolver-type case?
12
Correct.
13
Open?
14
The zipper wasn't closed all the way.
15
16
17
18
19
It was open.
knew it was a revolver.

Q
When did you notice that revolver in the center
console?
A
When they opened it up to put the license plates in
the middle.
20
In the middle?
21
Console -- center console.
22
Who's "they"?
23
Scott handed them to Bob.
24
That's how I
Bob put them in the
center console.
25
So was Bob in the front passenger seat or were you?
26
Bob was still in the driver's seat.
Where Bob and I
27
switched was -- um, I believe we went to get gas, and I
28
drove the rest of the way home.
80
13
When you saw the gun, did you take it out and
examine it?
No.
And do you know whose gun it was?
No.
And had you ever seen it before?
No.
What happened to that gun?
That I don't know.
10
Well, when you dropped off Scott Harrison, did --
11
He took it with him.
12
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
13
THE COURT:
It's sustained.
14
Leading.
Rephrase your
question.
15
(BY MS. KERSEY)
16
Yes.
17
When?
18
When we dropped him off at Point Lorna.
19
That same day?
20
Yes.
21
After leaving Tijuana?
22
Leaving Tijuana, yes.
23
Was there any discussion about him taking the gun
24
Did Scott Harrison take the gun?
with him when he -- at Point Lorna?
25
No.
26
What about the license plates?
27
He left those and then told Bob to take care of
28
He just took it.
them, and Bob said okay.
81
13
Have you seen that gun again?
No.
Did you ever talk to Scott Harrison about that gun
either before or after?
No.
So it never came up?
No.
No?
No.
10
Can you -- other than being a revolver, can you give
11
us any other description?
12
Just it was a large revolver.
13
Do you know the caliber?
14
No, I don't recall any of that.
15
And that was your Jeep?
16
Yes.
17
Had you ever seen that gun before in your Jeep?
18
No.
19
So now you are in the car and, I take it, then you
Color?
20
drive -- or Bob is driving and he comes back across the
21
border?
22
Correct.
23
What time do you think it was when you came across
24
25
26
27
28
the border?
A
It was in the afternoon.
I don't recall what time
it was.
So sometime in the afternoon you crossed back over
the border?
82
13
Correct.
Did you stop anywhere before going to Point Lorna
College?
Yes, to get gas.
In the Jeep?
Yes.
Whose credit card -- or how was it paid for?
Phil's credit card.
Did you have the credit card?
10
No.
11
Who had the credit card?
12
Scott had the credit card.
13
But you knew you were using Phil Perry's
14
Yes.
15
-- card?
16
Yes.
17
How did you know that?
18
'Cause I saw it.
19
20
21
I pumped the gas.
It was the same credit card we
used when we filled it up in Rancho.

Q
Well, when you were in Rancho, you said you went to
the Mobile station?
22
Dh-huh.
23
Okay.
24
Does the amount $33 sound correct when you gassed
25
up?
26
I believe so.
27
And you remember a car wash also?
28
Yes.
83
14
1
2
Now, when you were in San Diego using the credit
cards, did you go to a Chevron station?
Yes.
Yes?
Yes.
Did you do any car washing or anything like that?
No.
So does $15 -- or I'm sorry -- $13.01 sound correct?
Yes.
10
Were different credit cards possibly used for each
11
transaction?
12
Yes.
13
But you - - what you do remember and you do know is
14
that they were both Phil Perry's?
15
They were both Phil Perry's, yes.
16
What about the other items in Phil Perry's wallet?
17
Do you know what happened to any of those?
18
No.
19
Or the wallet itself?
20
No.
21
Do you remember seeing it at all at anytime?
22
I never saw the wallet at all.
23
So when Scott Harrison got out of the car at Point
24
25
26
Lorna, you didn't see the wallet?

A
No.
How I knew they had the wallet, Liz told me
they took the wallet.
27
When did Liz tell you that?
28
When we were in the condo.
She said they took it
84
14
the night of the murder.
Did she tell you why?
No.
MR:
THE COURT:
6
7
8
BOYCE:
Objection.
Hearsay.
There's no response anyway, so it's
overruled.
Q
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Now, once you gassed up the car in
San Diego, where do you go?
Take Scott back to Point Lorna.
10
Was that part of the plan, to drop him off at Point
11
Lorna?
12
Yes.
13
Did he have any clothing or anything with him?
14
15
16
mean, had he packed a bag?
I don't
think he did have a small little
overnight bag.
17
Did he take that with him?
18
Yes.
19
But he had -- 'cause he had stayed the night before
20
at --
21
Liz's.
22
Okay.
23
24
Now,
once you dropped him off, when is the next
time you saw Scott Harrison?
25
I don't recall.
26
Did you maintain a friendship with him, referring to
27
28
Scott Harrison?
A
No.
We really just kinda went our separate ways.
85
14
1
.~
However, you mentioned that you were the best man at
his wedding.
Correct.
Which was after the murder.
Correct.
So you were still friends.

MR. BOYCE:
7
8
Leading, your Honor.
THE COURT:
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Sustained.
So can you describe for us, if any,
11
changes in the relationship before Phil Perry's murder
12
till after?
13
14
15
16
The
nature of the question is leading.
9
10
Objection.
Yeah.
Our relationship as far as trust between the
two of us changed.
Q
Now, were you aware when, urn, Phil Perry's body was
found in Mexico?
17
Yes.
18
How did you become aware of that?
19
Lisa told me.
20
Was it -- when was it, if you remember?
21
I don't remember exactly when it was.
I remember
22
she was hysterical when she found out the body was found
23
in Mexico.
24
25
Was it -- was Phil Perry's body found a lot faster
than you expected?
26
No.
27
Was it within a few days?
28
It was in a few days.
86
14
1
2
So once Phil Perry's body was found, at some point
you were interviewed by law enforcement?
Correct.
Did you admit to law enforcement your involvement in
this crime?
No, I did not.
Did you talk to law enforcement about Scott
Harrison's involvement?
I think I did briefly, but not to the full extent.
10
Well, wasn't your first statement, um, to law
11
enforcement basically that you were at the hospital and
12
didn't have any idea what happened?
13
MR. BOYCE:
14
THE WITNESS:
15
THE COURT:
16
MS. KERSEY:
17
Leading.
Are you talking about

Sustained.
It's offered for impeachment, your
Honor.
18
THE COURT:
19
THE WITNESS:
20
Objection.
It's still leading.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Are you talking about when I was -Let me ask another question.
Did you talk to the police and tell them you were
21
22
at the hospital the whole day of the murder?
We're
23
talking about just your first interview, your contact
24
with law enforcement.
25
The first time?
Not with Bobby Dean?
26
Correct.
27
Yes.
28
That would have been with Detective Emmerson and
That would have been with --
87
14
Detective Yost.
Yes.
So you denied involvement?
I denied everything totally to them.
At that particular time Detective Emmerson and
Detective Yost had done some search warrants at your
business and at your home?
Correct.
I'm going to show you what's been marked as 55 for
10
Identification.
Does that look like the Jeep that you owned back
11
12
in 1991,
'92?
13
Yes.
14
Here's a rear view with the plate, Exhibit 56.
15
Is that the Jeep --
16
That is it.
17
-- or a photograph of the Jeep?
18
Yes.
19
Now,
20
also in 1992 were the -- your cars, the Supra
and the Jeep, searched?
21
Correct.
22
But not the Mercedes?
23
No.
24
Did you -- that first contact with law enforcement
15
25
in 1992, did you turn over the letters that you had
26
collected to law enforcement?
27
They
during the search warrant they took them.
28
But it wasn't by you volunteering them.
You didn't
88
15
1
2
volunteer those letters, in other words?

A
No.
MS. KERSEY:
THE COURT:
Cross-examination, Mr. Boyce?
Nothing further, your Honor.

Thank you.
6
7
8
9
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. BOYCE:
Mr. Bragg -- or I'm sorry -- Mr. Ditommaso, you were
10
given some documents to review before you testified in
11
court today, weren't you?
12
Not today.
13
Before today you were given some documents --
14
Yes.
15
-- to review?
16
Yes.
17
Who gave you those documents?
18
It was Detective, urn, Gina Perez.
19
Was i t a transcript of some statements that you had
20
made?
21
Correct.
22
Did you review that document?
23
Correct.
24
And were those statements true that you made?
25
Yes, pretty much.
26
Did you also review those statements with your
27
28
attorney?
No.
89
15
You have an attorney now, don't you?
Yes, I do.
His name is Bill Gebbie; is that correct?
That's correct.
And one of Mr. Gebbie's associates is seated here in
the courtroom; is that correct?
MS. KERSEY:
Objection.
Relevance, your Honor.
THE COURT:
You could answer "yes ll or "no.
THE WITNESS:
10
11
12
(BY MR. BOYCE)
Overruled.
1I
Yes.
He's seated next to your
grandmother; isn't that right?
13
That's correct.
14
And you have an attorney because you have a
15
what's known as a writ of habeas corpus pending, don't
16
you?
17
Correct.
18
And immediately before testifying today you called
19
your attorney and asked if anything that you said today
20
could be used against you and hurt you in your writ of
21
habeas corpus, correct?
22
Correct.
23
Because the purpose of that habeas corpus is to get
24
your conviction overturned, correct?
25
Correct.
26
And you have been sentenced to life in prison,
27
28
correct?
A
Correct.
90
15
So you're essentially at the mercy of the Parole
Board; is that right?
That's correct.
And the Parole Board seeks information when you're
up for parole from the law enforcement agency and also
the prosecuting agency that prosecuted you, correct?
Correct.
And you were told by, um,
the detectives and also
the prosecutor in this case that if you testified, they
10
would write a letter to the Parole Board for you, didn't
11
they?
12
Yes.
13
And you hope that that letter is going to help you
14
get out on parole, correct?
15
Correct.
16
Your appeal is over, isn't it, Mr. Ditommaso?
17
The state part is.
18
Now, in 1992 you were working in a business called
19
B&B Enterprises; is that right?
20
B&B Associates.
21
B&B Associates.
22
You told us earlier that "B&B" was
just to get in the phone book; is that correct?
23
Pardon?
24
The reason you used B&B was just Bragg, but two B's
25
to get in the phone book ahead of other businesses; is
26
that correct?
27
That's correct.
28
Isn't it true that your brother, Tony Brambila, was
91
15
also involved in the business?
Was he involved?
Yes.
Not as a partner, no.
He was never involved as a partner?
Well, in the very beginning he was.
And that's how the business got named, isn't it?
Because it was Bragg and Brambila?
No.
10
That's not why it was named that?
11
No.
12
In April of 1992 you had two other people working
13
there, didn't you?
14
April of '92?
15
Yeah.
16
I don't recall.
17
It was a business financially backed by your
18
parents, correct?
19
Correct.
20
And you had
Katherine Ditommaso, the lady here in
21
the courtroom, your grandmother, she was the
22
receptionist?
23
Correct.
24
And also Joe Plunkett (phonetic spelling), he was
25
vice-president, wasn't he?
26
That's correct.
27
And then there's Don Sutton (phonetic spelling)?
28
Correct.
92
15
He was also working at B&B, correct?
Correct.
And then you had just hired somebody by the name of
Robert Minor, correct?
I don't recall hiring Bob Minor.
Well, that's what you told the police back --
Detective Emmerson back in April of 1992 -- didn't
you? -- when you were interviewed?
Bob worked and tried to bring deals in, but Bob did
10
not have any qualifications as far as going and trying to
11
generate loans.
12
Okay.
What you told -- well, you told Detective
13
14
Emmerson that Robert Minor -- that you "Just hired
15
somebody and his name is Robert Minor.
16
brother-in-law.
17
trying ...
He's my
He just got laid off from work, so we're
Is that right?
18
19
No.
20
That was a lie?
21
I did not hire him.
22
Would it refresh your recollection to see a page of
16
23
your transcript statement to Detective Emmerson back in
24
1992?
25
26
27
28
Sure.
MS. KERSEY:
Your Honor, counsel hasn't provided
me with that transcript.

MR. BOYCE:
It's Page 377 of the discovery --
93
16
THE COURT:
Thank you.
MR. BOYCE:
-- provided by the prosecution.
(BY MR. BOYCE)
Bob was
Does that refresh your recollection?
was not actually hired because everybody
that worked for B&B was on a commission basis only.
grandmother answered the telephones for free till the
company got going.
8
9
10
My
Mr. Ditommaso, all I'm asking is did you tell
Detective Emmerson that you hired somebody and his name

is Robert Minor?
11
I don't recall saying I hired Bob -- Robert Minor.
12
That's what it says on the statement, though, right?

MS. KERSEY:
13
14
Objection, your Honor.
Argumentative.
15
THE COURT:
Overruled.
16
MR. BOYCE:
I'll withdraw the question, your
17
Honor.
18
19
(BY MR. BOYCE)
You didn't mention that Scott
Harrison was working for you, did you?
20
I don't recall.
21
You don't know?
22
I don't recall.
23
At that time Scott Harrison was -- to your knowledge
24
he was going to school at Point Lorna, correct?
25
That's correct.
26
And he was coming up on weekends to see your
27
28
sister-in-law Sheila, correct?

A
Correct.
94
16
Q Now, you changed your name after April of 1992 to

Ditommaso; is that correct?
That's correct.
Why did you do that?
Because my grandfather, Frank Ditommaso, has been a
6
7
8
father to me all my life when my real father hasn't.

Q
And then in August of 2001, um, you were no longer
living at the same address you were in 1992, were you?
Repeat that, please.
10
In August of 2001 you were -- you had moved.
11
You
weren't living in the same place you were in 1992.
12
No.
13
You had moved a couple of times, hadn't you?
14
Correct.
15
And in August of 2001 you were staying in a hotel
16
under an assumed name, weren't you?
17
Correct.
18
That name being "Stan Ritter"?
19
Correct.
20
You were hiding from the police, weren't you?
21
That is incorrect.
22
Well, you were under indictment for auto theft, real
23
estate fraud and identity theft, weren't you?

MS. KERSEY:
25
MR. BOYCE:
It goes to his
26
THE COURT:
Overruled.
27
(BY MR. BOYCE)
28
That is true.
--
Isn't that true?
95
16
1
2
alleging various kinds of fraud and --
3
4
In fact, there were approximately ten counts
MS. KERSEY:
Relevance.
And this is well beyond Castro.
MR. BOYCE:
Castro is not the law.
THE COURT:
It's overruled.
(BY MR. BOYCE)
That's correct.
And in that - - in that- fraud you were falsifying
Is that correct?
10
your name on driver's licenses.
11
driver's license of Richard Medona (phonetic spelling)
12
you'd placed your photograph on that driver's license,
13
hadn't you?
14
15
MS. KERSEY:
This is well
beyond the scope and well beyond impeachment.
16
17
In other words, on the
THE COURT:
credibility.
It's overruled.
It goes to his
It's overruled.
18
(BY MR. BOYCE)
19
That's correct.
20
And you used these fraudulent documents to go to car
21
Is that correct, Mr. Ditommaso?
dealerships and purchase cars, didn't you?
22
That's correct.
23
You also were involved in some fraudulent real
24
estate transactions, weren't you?
25
That's correct.
26
Using other people's names, correct?
27
That's correct.
28
Now -- and it was in August of 2001 when you were
96
16
staying in this motel under the name of Stan Ritter that
the police found you and arrested you in this case; is
that correct?
That's correct.
Now, you told us, I believe, that on April 13th of
1992 -- back in 1992 again -- that your daughter Elise
had a tonsillectomy, correct?
That's correct.
And it's your testimony that you stayed home all
10
night with your daughter, Elise, and your mother, Dorothy
11
Merchain -- or your step- -- your -- I'm sorry -- your
12
mother-in-law, Dorothy Merchain; is that correct?
13
That's correct.
14
So it was you and Dorothy Merchain and Elise at the
15
house; is that correct?
16
And my grandparents.
17
Lisa was there, too?
18
For a short while.
19
And at some point at night they went to bed, didn't
20
they?
21
Who?
22
Elise did, didn't she?
23
Yes.
24
Do you know what time she went to bed?
25
I don't recall.
26
She didn't stay up till late -- early in the
27
28
Lisa?
morning, did she?

A
No.
97
l6
And your grandparents, I assume, would have gone to
bed, wouldn't they?
Yes.
That day you were driving the Supra, weren't you?
I don't recall which car I had the day of the
l7
6
7
surgery.
Would it refresh your recollection to see -- did you
tell Detective Emmerson back on April 30th of 1992 -- and
this is on Page 39l of your discovery, counsel -- did you
lO
tell him that it was that Monday that you
II
the Supra, "We were all in the Supra when we went to the
l2
hospital"?
l3
MS. KERSEY:
l4
MR. BOYCE:
l5
MS. KERSEY:
l6
MR. BOYCE:
l7
MS. KERSEY:
l8
THE WITNESS:
19
(BY MR. BOYCE)
I'm sorry.
Line?
4.
Thanks.
I believe so.
And the Supra was, urn, one of the
cars that you and Lisa had?
2l
MS. KERSEY:
the evidence.
What page were you on?
39l.
20
22
urn, you had
It misstates
It says Subaru, not Supra.
23
(BY MR. BOYCE)
24
No.
25
You had a Supra, though, right?
26
Yes.
27
And that was the car that you were driving that day,
28
correct?
Well, did you have a Subaru?
You weren't driving a Subaru, were you?
98
17
1
2
No, it was a Supra, and I don't recall driving it.
I believe Lisa was driving it.
All right.
Because Lisa got a ticket in it.
And when you left the hospital, what car did you
6
7
8
9
10
leave in?
A
I believe we all left in the Supra.
That's how we
got there.
So you were driving the Supra on Monday; is that
correct?
11
Dh-huh.
12
You have to say "yes" or "no."
13
Yes.
14
Now, the next day, April 14th, you told the police
15
that you were working at an apartment -- at your
16
apartment in Adelanto; is that correct?
17
I never had an apartment in Adelanto.
18
Is that what you told the police, though, in April
19
of 1992?
20
That I had an apartment?
21
That you were working in an apartment in Adelanto.
22
I believe I was working on a deal in Adelanto.
23
The next day; is that correct?
24
That's correct.
25
And you said Lisa could have had the Jeep that day,
26
correct?
27
I don't recall.
28
That's what you told the police, Detective Emmerson,
99
17
back on April 30th, 1992, correct?
I don't recall.
Read lines 19 thru 22 to see if that refreshes your
recollection.
(Pause)
5
I'm sorry.
Thru 26.
(Pause)
Did you read that?
8
9
Yes.
It says possible.
10
And Detective Yost asked you,
"I have a problem with
11
Tuesday.
I have a real bad problem with Tuesday"
12
that was the Tuesday after Monday when the deacon was
13
missing -- and Detective Emmerson asked you,
14
have driven the Jeep on Tuesday?"And you said,
15
"Possible, possibly could," is that right?
and
"Could Lisa
16
That's what it says.
17
You didn't tell them that you drove the Jeep -- or
18
you were in the Jeep that went down to Mexico, did you?
19
No.
20
Before the deacon disappeared, had you written a
21
letter to the archbishop complaining about the deacon?
22
Did I write one?
23
Yes.
24
Yes, I did.
25
And it stated that the deacon impregnated your wife?
26
Yes.
27
And you were upset because you never heard back from
28
the archbishop?
100
17
That's correct.
And you said that Nina -- well, your mother knew
about the affair; is that right?
That's correct.
And Liz, your sister-in-law (sicl, knew about the
affair?
That's correct.
And that when Liz found out about the affair, you
thought Liz was gonna hurt Lisa for a long time because
10
Liz really -- to get to the point,
"Liz had some rough
11
people she used to hang out with and wanted to beat up
12
Lisa, and I didn't want her to do that because I was
13
scared that -- you know, she has problems with her
14
heart"?
15
That's correct.
16
And you told the police that you didn't send anyone
17
18
19
20
to talk to the deacon; is that correct?

A
The first time I told the detectives I didn't have
anything to do with it at all.

Q
You said you didn't need to send anybody to talk to
21
the deacon because you and the deacon talked on a weekly
22
basis?
23
That's correct.
24
And then it was Liz that told you that she was going
25
We had a very close relationship.
to talk to the deacon; is that right?
26
After I asked her to.
27
Well, you told the police that Liz came to you and
28
said she was going to talk to the deacon.
101
17
No.
And you say Liz told you that Scott was going to go
I asked Liz to go talk to the deacon.
with her?
asked Scott.
Well, you told the police that Liz told you that
18
Scott was going with her.
Detective Emmerson that back in 1992?

A
10
don't recall.
Do you remember telling
know what I told the first set of
detectives was I did not have nothing to do with it, and

I
was lying at that point.
11
But you're telling the truth today; is that correct?
12
Yes.
13
Now,
14
on April 13th Liz came over to your office
before she went to talk to the deacon; is that correct?
15
Liz was at the hospital in the morning.
16
Well, did Liz come to the office and talk to you
17
about going to the deacon?
18
On the 13th?
19
On the 13th or the day before.
20
Yes, she agreed to go.
21
But did you meet with Liz at the office either on
22
the 13th or the day before the 13th?
23
Yes, before.
24
On the 12th?
25
Before Elise's surgery, you mean?
26
Elise's
27
Uh-huh.
28
-- tonsillectomy.
102
18
Yes.
The day before Elise's tonsillectomy did you meet
with Liz at the office?
Yes.
Did you -- did you give anybody a gun --
No.
-- to go talk to the deacon?
No.
Did you leave a gun in a bag outside your office?
10
No.
11
You know, Liz says that you did.
12
MS. KERSEY:
13
THE COURT:
Hearsay.
It's overruled.
14
(BY MR. BOYCE)
15
I've heard.
16
And you're saying that's not true?
17
That's not true.
18
You never paid anyone to go talk to the deacon?
19
No.
20
And you never gave anybody a weapon to go talk to
21
You've been told that, right?
the deacon?
22
No.
23
And you also said during these conversations that
24
Scott said he got the gun from Robert Minor; is that
25
right?
26
Which gun?
27
The gun that you saw in the car.
28
I don't know.
103
1
18
THE COURT:
Mr. Boyce, I'm sorry to interrupt,
but I have to go to a meeting, so we are going to have to
take our evening recess.
you, but I have to go to that meeting at 4:00 and I'm a
little bit late.
chambers.
I apologize for interrupting
I could hear them meeting in my
So you are admonished not to discuss this case
among yourselves or with anyone else, nor form or express
an opinion until the cause is finally submitted to you.
10
See you back tomorrow at 10:30 in the morning,
11
and we are going to resume the cross-examination of Mr.
12
Ditommaso, okay?
13
Thank you.
14
"~
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
(Proceedings of 7/13/05 concluded)
104
11
RANCHO CUCAMONGA, CALIF; THURSDAY, JULY 14, 2005; 10:45 A.M.
DEPARTMENT 4
APPEARANCES:
HON. INGRID A. UHLER, JUDGE
The Defendant HARRISON with his Counsel,
ROBERT E. BOYCE, Attorney-at-Law; CHERYL
KERSEY, Deputy District Attorney of the
County of San Bernardino, representing the
People of the State of California.
(Debra A. Godinez, C.S.R., Official
10
Reporter, C-4491)
11
KARL JOSEPH DITOMMASO,
12
13
having been previously duly sworn, resumed the witness
14
stand and testified further as follows:
15
16
THE COURT:
We're back on the matter of People
17
18
People are represented by Miss Kersey.
19
The
And we have currently Mr. Ditommaso on the
20
witness stand.
We are going to resume the
21
cross-examination.
22
record at this point?
And do we need to put anything on the
23
MR. BOYCE:
I don't believe so, your Honor.
24
THE COURT:
Okay.
25
So we'll go ahead and bring the jurors in.
26
27
(At this time the jury
28
entered the courtroom)
105
11
THE COURT:
We are back on the matter of People
~~-
Kersey is present.
jurors and alternates are presently constituted.
Miss
The
Hopefully we are going to finish up Mr. Ditommaso
5
6
sometime this morning or early afternoon, then you have
to look forward to a slide presentation on DNA evidence.
That's what's going to happen this afternoon.
9
10
So with that said, Mr. Boyce, you may resume your

cross-examination, sir.
11
MR. BOYCE:
Thank you, your Honor.
12
THE COURT:
You're welcome.
13
CROSS EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
14
15
16
17
BY MR. BOYCE:
Q
Mr. Ditommaso, you were interviewed by, urn,
detectives about a month ago, weren't you?
18
A month ago?
19
Yeah, on June 17th.
20
I believe -- yes, I believe somewhere around that
21
time.
22
You recall being interviewed by detectives, right?
23
Uh-huh.
24
Is that "yes"?
25
Yes, Mrs. Perez, actually.
26
Miss -- that's Gina Perez.
27
28
correct?
A
Uh-huh.
She's a detective,
106
11
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
3
4
(BY MR. BOYCE)
Is that "yes"?
Yes.
And with her was -- was Miss Kersey
with her at that time?
Yes.
Miss Kersey is the person seated at the end of
.counsel table here, correct?
Yes.
The Deputy District Attorney in this case?
10
Yes.
11
And during that interview, you told them that there
12
was something you'd like to bring to their attention that
13
they didn't know.

Do you recall saying that?
14
15
Yes.
16
And that was that before the deacon disappeared,
17
that Liz was blackmailing the deacon and was supposed to
18
bring the deacon to you to do a house loan; is that
19
correct?
20
Correct.
21
And that Liz had threatened the deacon by telling
22
him that -- that she was going to tell Mrs. Perry about
23
the affair that Lisa was having with Mr. -- Mr. Perry and
24
show Mrs. Perry the letters and the cards that were
25
exchanged between Mrs. Perry's husband and your wife; is
26
that correct?
27
That's correct.
28
And you had learned at that point that -- well, Lisa
107
11
told you that Lisa and the deacon were going to be
leaving and starting a life over again, correct?
Liz said that.
Liz said that?
That's correct.
That Lisa and the deacon were going to be leaving
Your stepsister told you that?
and starting a life over again?
That's correct.
And so the deacon actually came to you about this
10
loan, correct?
11
Yes.
12
And the loan was for approximately $100,000?
13
That's what he was talking about, but .he never took
14
15
16
the loan out.

Q
He never took the loan out because he told you he
couldn't get his wife's cooperation; is that correct?
17
That's correct.
18
And he consulted you about how you got around a
19
spouse's unwillingness to go through with a refinance of
20
community property, correct?
21
That's correct.
22
And he came to your office and talked about that,
23
correct?
24
That's correct.
25
He also had in the past come to your office and
26
talked about his problems?
27
Correct.
28
He'd stop by for coffee?
108
11
Correct.
And you two became fairly good friends?
Yes.
Who were you better friends with?
The deacon or
Scott Harrison?
Scott.
Now, you told -- do we have -- where's the --
MR. BOYCE:
Your Honor, where are the exhibits?
THE COURT:
They should be in the box.
10
MR. BOYCE:
I was looking for the charts.
11
THE COURT:
Oh.
12
MR. BOYCE:
Also, before I forget
13
THE COURT:
Did you make copies?
14
MR. BOYCE:
-- I made copies of the family
16
THE COURT:
Thank you, Mr. Boyce.
17
MR. BOYCE:
-- so everybody could have one.
18
THE COURT:
And if you want, you could just go
15
They need to be brought out.
chart
19
ahead and hand six on the top and six on the bottom for
20
the jurors and they could pass them through, and then we
21
will make sure that one gets to the alternate here in the
22
lonely corner.
12
23
Now everybody is happy.
24
Thank you, Mr. Boyce, for doing that.
25
MR. BOYCE:
I have one for the Court, too.
26
THE COURT:
I'll take one.
27
And we did bring out the box of evidence for you
28
as well.
Okay.
109
12
MR. BOYCE:
Bill, do you have the easel?
THE COURT:
Mr. Boyce, if you are going to
Thanks.
actually have the witness refer to this chart, you might
be able to put it closer to him and he could use the
pointer to refer to it for obvious reasons.
MR. BOYCE:
All right.
THE COURT:
And you could put the easel over
there, if you want, instead of on the board.

I know you put it up there.
What number is it?
10
MR. BOYCE:
This is Exhibit 52.
11
THE COURT:
Thank you.
12
13
(BY MR. BOYCE)
Mr. Ditommaso, I'm referring to
Exhibit 52.
Do you generally recognize the map of that area?
14
15
Yes.
16
And on that map do you see there's -- in the center
17
of Exhibit 52 there's a notation, B&B Enterprises, at
18
9631 Business Center Drive.

Do you see that?
19
20
Yes.
21
Does that accurately reflect the area where your
22
business was located back in April of 1992?
23
Yes.
24
And--
25
That is Archibald and Arrow, correct?
26
It is Arrow, and -- I'm not sure if that's
27
28
Archibald, but that looks like the general area, correct?

A
Uh-huh.
110
12
1
2
And did you know where Deacon Perry's house was at
that time?
Yes.
And is that the general location of where Deacon
Perry's house was located?
Yes, right around the corner.
Now, also on that diagram is a notation,
"Minor/Bragg Condo," which is in the center of Exhibit
52.
10
Do you see that?
11
Yes.
12
Was that the condo that Liz Minor and Robert Minor
13
quitclaimed to you sometime in 1992?
14
That's correct.
15
And they quitclaimed that to you before the deacon
16
disappeared, correct?
17
Correct.
18
And the notation at the far left-hand side, if
19
you're facing the diagram, Exhibit 52, where it says "San
20
Antonio Community Hospital," is that where your daughter
21
Elise had the tonsillectomy on April 13th?
22
That's correct.
23
And that's the location of that hospital?
24
Yes.
25
And then St. Joseph's Church -- just above San
26
Antonio Community Hospital, is that where St. Joseph's
27
Church is located?
28
Yes.
111
12
1
2
And at the time you were living at 8990 19th Street;
is that correct?
That's correct.
And is that accurately reflected at the top of the
diagram?
Yes.
Now, do you recall telling the police back in 1992
when you were interviewed -- April 30th, 1992 -- that you
were home Tuesday night after -- the Tuesday after the
10
deacon disappeared on Monday and that you had received a
11
phone call from someone that referred to Lisa as "Hi,
12
babe"?
13
Yes.
14
And you told the police that the only person it
Do you remember that?
15
could have been that called on Tuesday night was the
16
deacon since he was the only person that referred to Lisa
17
as -- he was the -- you and the deacon were the only
18
people that referred to Lisa as "babe," is that correct?
19
That's correct.
20
And of course this is the Tuesday night after the
21
deacon had disappeared on Monday, correct?
22
That's correct.
23
You told us that on April 14th, in the morning, that
24
you went to the -- the condo that Liz and Robert used to
25
own; that you and Robert and Liz and Scott went over to
26
the condo together after breakfast, correct?
27
Correct.
28
And that the -- you didn't -- the deacon's car was
112
12
in the garage, correct?
Correct.
And you looked in the driver's side rear seat of the
car, correct?
The back door.
The back door.
You didn't touch the deacon or touch
anything in the car, correct?
Correct.
The only thing you touched were some bags that were
10
out on the floor, correct?
11
Correct.
12
And what did you do with those bags?
13
I just threw them over.
14
Over to the side of the garage?
15
Uh-huh.
16
Is that "yes"?
17
Yes.
18
And the side of the car that you looked into was the
19
side where the
20
that correct?
the deacon's feet were sticking out; is
21
Right.
22
Or the deacon's feet were pointed towards you; is
23
that correct?
24
That's correct.
25
You agreed to drive to Mexico out of fear because
13
26
you had seen a body in the car, correct?
27
told us yesterday.
28
Correct.
That's what you
113
13
~
No one put a gun to your head?
I was in fear of Mr. Harrison.
Nobody put a gun to your head, though?
Mr. Harrison did.
Mr. Harrison put a gun to your head in the garage?
Yes, he threatened me.
And that's why you went to Mexico; is that correct?
Correct.
And he threatened to kill your daughter, Elise,
10
correct?
11
Correct.
12
And it was after that that you say that you and
13
Robert followed Scott Harrison to Mexico, correct?
14
That's correct.
15
Now, the gun that you saw in the car appeared to be
16
Robert Minor's gun, correct?
17
I believe so.
18
And you had seen that gun before, correct?
19
It was -- it was a revolver, like a .357.
20
Yes.
21
You saw that gun, though, when you and your
brother Tony Brambila went target shooting, correct?
22
Yes.
23
And that was before the deacon disappeared, correct?
24
Yes.
25
And Tony actually had a gun identical to that gun,
26
didn't he?
27
No.
28
Who was shooting that gun at that time during the
114
13
target shooting?
Robert.
Oh, Robert went with you?
To go target shooting?
Yes.
You -- you said when Tony and I?
Yes.
And Robert.
QThe three of you went target shooting?
10
11
Tony.
12
Tony had a different gun?
13
Uh-huh, yes.
14
And this is the Tony that you started the business
15
Yes.
Robert's the one that owned the .357, not
with, B&B Enterprises?
16
Yes.
17
Did you -- before the deacon disappeared, did you
18
have a conversation with your stepsister, Liz Minor,
19
telling her that unless she helped you, that you were
20
going to tell her husband, Robert, about the affair that
21
Liz was having at that time?
22
No.
23
You never told that to Liz?
24
No.
25
You never threatened Liz that you were going to tell
26
Robert about this affair?
27
No.
28
And after the deacon disappeared that weekend, did
115
13
you meet Liz again at the condo?
Afterward?
Yes.
No.
She says that you raped her in the condo --
That is incorrect.
-- and that you threatened to slit her kids' throats
in front of Robert and kill Liz and Robert if she said
anything.
10
That's not so.
11
Now, the day that you met with Miss Kersey, the
12
Deputy District Attorney, and Gina Perez, the detective,
13
about a month ago, shortly before that, you had met with
14
Liz; is that correct?
15
Met with Liz?
16
Yes.
17
No.
18
You had contact with Liz, though, didn't you?
19
I saw Liz here at the jail.
20
And where did you see her?
21
She was locked up.
22
And that was before you met with Miss Kersey and
23
24
25
26
27
28
Detective Gina Perez?

A
Yes.
dry run.
Q
That was the time that we got sent here for a

There was no court hearing.
After April of 1992, you and Lisa got divorced,
correct?
A
Correct.
H6
13
And you remarried Jessica Delacruz?
Correct.
.3
And, actually, your mother divorced Jose; is that
correct?
Correct.
Yeah, but before he died, your mother divorced Jose
Jose is deceased now.
Jesus Brambila, correct?
Correct.
And your mother remarried Jessica's father, correct?
lO
Correct.
II
Now, when you were -- when you were first arrested
l2
in 200l and -- between 200l and your trial in 2002, you
l3
had some jail conversations over the telephone between
l4
you and Jessica Delacruz, didn't you?
l5
Yes.
16
And you told Jessica Delacruz that you were -- you
l7
had a problem with lying, didn't you?
l8
Yes.
19
You said you were a habitual liar, right?
20
Yes.
2l
Mr. Ditommaso, I'm showing you what's been marked as
22
Exhibit 66 and Exhibit 67.

Do you recognize these two pieces of paper?
23
24
Yes.
25
They appear to be journal entries, don't they?
26
Yes.
27
And did you write the information on these two
28
pieces of paper?
117
13
Q And on Exhibit 66 there appears to be an entry for
Yes.
April 13th, 1992; is that correct?
Correct.
And under that, there's an entry for April 14th,
1992, correct?
Correct.
Then we have one for April 15th, April 16th and
10
April 17th, and the entries for April 16th and 17th are
on page -- or Exhibit 67, correct?
11
That's correct.
12
And on the -- and you -- you did write these,
14
13
correct?
14
That's correct.
15
And you stated that -- on April 13th you said that
16
"Monday:
17
day.
18
to go to church that night for confession.
19
with my daughter and mother-in-law, Dorothy.
20
with us the whole week," correct?
21
Elise, are (sic) daughter, has a surgery that
We were at the hospital 7:45 to 6:30.
THE COURT:
23
THE WITNESS:
24
THE COURT:
Q
I stayed home
She stayed
Correct.
22
25
My wife had
(BY MR. BOYCE)
Is that "yes"?
Is that correct?
Yes.
Thank you.
Then on April 14th you have written,
26
"Tuesday.
Lisa went to work at 8:30.
I was at my office
27
by around 9:00 when my brother-in-law meet me (sic) to
28
pick up my Jeep for the day, and I took his car.
I had
118
14
to go to look at some apartments in Adelanto, California,
18125 Bellflower Street, Raintree Apartments.
about 9:30 or 10:00 for there, and was back in the office
by around 12:30 or 1:15 in the afternoon, in which my
secretary
__ 1I
MS. KERSEY:
6
7
narrative.
impeachment.
10
11
This is a
There's no question pending and it's not

It's counsel reading.
THE COURT:
I left
Sustained.
(BY MR. BOYCE)
Did you -- you wrote all that
information, correct?
12
Correct.
13
And the information which I did not read on Tuesday
14
states that you came back to the office at about, urn,
15
12:30 or 1:15 on Tuesday, April 14th; is that correct?
16
That's what it says.
17
Did you write that?
18
Yes.
19
And your secretary was there; is that correct?
20
That's correct.
21
Who was your secretary?
22
It was Katherine Ditommaso.
23
Your grandmother?
24
Dh-huh.
25
THE COURT:
26
THE WITNESS:
27
THE COURT:
28
(BY MR. BOYCE)
Is that "yes"?
Yes.
Thank you.
And then you say in
.in this entry
119
14
that you stayed at the office until 5:00 p.m; is that
correct?
Dh-huh, yes.
With your grandmother, Katherine Ditommaso, correct?
Yes.
And that then you went straight home?
MS. KERSEY:
Counsel's reading.
is improper.
Objection again, your Honor.

The document speaks for itself.
This
10
THE COURT:
Sustained.
11
MR. BOYCE:
Your Honor, I would move these two
12
exhibits, 66 and 67, into evidence and request they be
13
pUblished to the jury.
14
MS. KERSEY:
I would object at this point as an
15
undue consumption of time.
16
at a later point.
THE COURT:
17
We could probably take it up
I think the jurors should have the
18
benefit of either hearing it from the witness or having
19
an opportunity to look at it.
20
way you want to go because, obviously, Mr. Boyce would
21
like the jurors to hear that information and/or to have
22
an opportunity to see the information while he's
23
cross-examining him.
MS. KERSEY:
24
25
26
27
28
You need to decide which
I'm going to leave it up to the
Court.
THE COURT:
I'm going to overrule the objection,
then, and you may continue, Mr. Boyce.

MR. BOYCE:
Publish it to the jury?
120
14
THE COURT:
1
2
3
No, just continue with your
cross-examination about the information on the journal.

Q
(BY MR. BOYCE)
And then you stated under April
14th, 1992, that you went home from the office at about
5:00 p.m.
You went straight home; is that correct?
That's correct.
You stayed home all night with your daughter and
mother-in-law; is that correct?
That's correct.
10
On wednesday, April 15th, you stated you went to
11
work again at 9:00 -- about 9:00, and around 11:00 Lisa
12
called you up at the office crying and told you to come
13
home because "we need to talk," is that right?
14
Yes.
15
And in this entry you say that that's when you found
16
out that Lisa and the deacon were seeing each other,
17
correct?
18
Yes.
19
You state,
20
"I didn't know anything about Lisa and
him seeing each other," isn't that correct?
21
Correct.
22
And just before that, you said, "I found out about
23
Phil Perry missing, and Lisa and Phil were still seeing
24
each other," correct?
25
Correct.
26
And this is -- you've written this for your entry on
27
28
April 15th, 1992, Wednesday, correct?

A
Correct.
121
14
MR. BOYCE:
Your Honor, I don't have any further
questions, but I would move the letter regarding Robert
Minor's use of the Jeep on April 14th at 8:30 a.m. into
evidence and request that it be published to the jury.
THE COURT:
Any objection?
MS. KERSEY:
What was the number?
MR. BOYCE:
MS. KERSEY:
No.
57.
Thank you.
10
THE COURT:
Court Exhibit No. 57 is so received.
11
And then each juror will have an opportunity to
12
review that particular court exhibit, and obviously you
13
will also have that at a later time during your
14
deliberation process.
Do you as jurors want to have an opportunity to
15
16
look at the document as we go through redirect, or can
17
you still pay attention while you're looking at the
18
document?
19
things at one time?
15
Does anybody have difficulty trying to do two
20
So you may proceed with your redirect, Miss
21
22
Kersey.
23
MS. KERSEY:
24
THE COURT:
I need to use the letter.

Okay.
If you could, hand the letter
25
back to Miss Kersey, then I will provide it back to the
26
jurors~
27
28
MS. KERSEY:
I just want to resolve something,
then I'll hand it back.
122
15
THE COURT:
That's fine.
2
3
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. KERSEY:
Showing you Exhibit 57, which was shown to you, I
think, by me and Mr. Boyce, at this point do you remember
identifying that?
Yes.
And that's the letter that you had your mother write
10
to authenticate -- or put the Jeep somewhere else on the
11
day of Tijuana, correct?
12
Correct.
13
So it was intentional on your part to have your
14
mother write that letter to make sure that the Jeep was
15
not in your possession on the 14th of April?
16
Correct.
17
Okay.
18
Make sure you speak into the microphone, okay?
19
Yes.
20
And then once your mother wrote it, you had Robert
21
Minor sign it?
22
Correct.
23
Now, Robert Minor, though, was in Mexico on the
24
14th, correct?
25
Correct.
26
MR. BOYCE:
Leading, your Honor.
27
THE COURT:
Overruled.
28
The answer may remain.

I
123
15
--"
1
2
THE WITNESS:
Q
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Correct.
But it sounds like you didn't care
so much about Robert Minor being in Mexico, but you
wanted to make sure that you weren't in Mexico with the
Jeep.
Correct.
And you were aware during
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
10
(BY MR. BOYCE)
in 1992
Leading.
In 1992 in your interview with the
11
police officers, Detectives Emmerson and Yost -- do you
12
recall that point in time?
13
Yes.
14
Do you remember them talking to you about the u.S.
15
Customs keeping track of cars coming across the border?
16
Correct.
17
Is that the first time you became aware that they
18
had a record of the Jeep coming across the border?
19
Yes.
20
So did you -- is that why you had this letter
21
written?
22
Yes.
23
Now, Mr. Boyce was reading to you what's been marked
24
as Exhibit 67.
Now, this is your handwriting, correct?
25
26
Correct.
27
Now, did you write this diary or journal for the
28
same reason, generally, as you had the vehicle letter
124
15
1
2
written?
A
Yes.
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
5
6
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
Why did you write this letter or --
I don't want to call it a letter -- the journal?
It was to cover up that I was in Tijuana on Tuesday.
So I guess the best way to ask this is:
9
10
Is some of
it accurate and some of it not?

A
Correct.
11
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
Vague.
12
THE COURT:
Overruled.
I assume she's going to
13
14
15
clarify.
Q
(BY MS. KERSEY)
So -- but you also -- well, you
start here on Monday, April 13th, 1992, right?
16
Yes.
17
Okay.
And that is correct.
In that Elise had surgery that day?
18
19
Yes.
20
But April 14th, 1992, this section here
21
(indicating), which is generally, I guess, about a
22
paragraph, urn, that part, is that correct?
23
No, that's not.
24
Because you were trying to, urn, basically cover up
25
that you were in Tijuana?
26
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
27
THE COURT:
Sustained.
28
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
Why did you write that paragraph?
125
15
To cover up that I was in Tij uana.
And the -- why did you
why did you continue --
for instance, April 15th, why did you write that that
day?
I wrote the whole -- pretty much the whole week to
present it to the officers -- to the detectives to cover
up my whereabouts that week.
All right.
And why was it so important to you -- I know this
9
10
is a basic question
11
week?
12
13
to cover up your whereabouts that
'Cause they were questioning me about my
whereabouts.
14
And you had been involved in a murder, right?
15
Correct.
16
Now, Mr. Boyce was asking you about a .357 revolver.
17
Did you ever own a .357 revolver?
18
No.
19
Who did, that you knew of, at that time in 1991,
20
'92?
21
Robert Minor.
22
Is that the only person you knew that owned a .357
23
revolver?
24
Yes.
25
Now, had you seen Robert Minor in possession of that
26
revolver?
27
Yes.
28
And is this the target shooting incident that you
126
15
were talking about?
Yes.
Now, after that target shooting that you went to --
was Scott Harrison with you on that target shooting day?
No.
So it was you and who?
It was Jose, Tony Brambila, Bob Minor, myself, and
8
9
10
my two brothers.
Do you know when that target shooting event occurred
in relation to the homicide?
11
12
almost
13
14
They went like
I just want to know what you know.
16
that.
17
Oh, it was a few months before, maybe longer than
Did you ever become aware of Robert Minor losing
that weapon, that .357?
19
Yes.
20
Do you know when that occurred?
21
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
22
THE COURT:
Sustained.
23
MS. KERSEY:
24
MR. BOYCE:
Hearsay.
25
THE COURT:
Sustained.
26
When did you go
when you saw that revolver?
15
18
Well, they went quite often.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Speculation.
I'm asking i f he knows, your Honor.
Were you - - did you ever -- let me
27
put it this way:
Did you ever participate in some search
28
for the weapon with Robert Minor?
127
16
Yes.
Where did that search occur?
In his condo.
Okay.
The condo that we were talking about on -- what
5
6
is that? -- Spring Desert?
Correct.
So it was when he lived in the condo?
Correct.
10
Was the weapon found?
11
Not to my knowledge.
12
Not when you were there?
13
No.
14
And you testified, I believe, that you carried a
15
pistol?
16
Correct.
17
What caliber?
18
9 millimeter.
19
Now, during the search warrant of your house, was
20
that 9 millimeter collected?
21
Yes.
22
Was that in the search from the search warrant in
23
1992 or 2001?
24
I believe in '92.
25
But you know it was collected by the police?
26
Yes, the police took it.
27
Did you ever use that .357 that was Robert Minor's?
28
No.
I'm not quite sure.
l28
l6
Fire it or anything like that?
No.
Now,
I want to go back to the discussion that you
had with Scott Harrison and Liz Minor prior to the
homicide, okay?
Okay.
Now, when you talked to Liz and Scott Harrison about
this contact that was going to occur with Phil Perry, you
mentioned yesterday that it was supposed to be a beating.
lO
Well
II
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
l2
THE COURT:
It's foundational, so it's overruled.
l3
l4
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
That it was supposed to be a -- I'm
using the word "beating" generically.
l5
MR. BOYCE:
Misstates the evidence.
l6
THE COURT:
It's overruled.
l7
THE WITNESS:
l8
19
aggressive.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Okay.
The point I want to get to is after you found out
20
2l
It was meant for Scott to be
about Phil Perry's death
22
23
okay? --
Yes.
from Liz and Scott and Robert, did anybody ever
24
talk to you about phil Perry
25
physically beaten?
gettin~
beat up or
26
No.
27
Or about anybody hitting Phil Perry?
28
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
Leading, asked and
129
16
answered.
2
3
THE COURT:
"yes 11 or IIno.
It's overruled.
THE WITNESS:
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
THE COURT:
It's overruled.
He could answer
(BY MS. KERSEY)
I don't recall.
Hearsay.
I want to direct you to your
statement that you gave to -- and I'm going to identify
Chris Elvert.
10
11
Chris?
Yes.
MS. KERSEY:
Counsel, Page 2575 or would you
rather have the transcript number page?
14
(Inaudible discussion held)
15
MR. BOYCE:
16
MS. KERSEY:
17
That would
have been an interview in 2001.
12
13
Do you remember Chris Elvert?
This is hearsay.
It's offered as an inconsistent
statement.
18
Do you want to approach?
19
MR. BOYCE:
Yeah.
20
THE COURT:
Want to approach briefly?
21
Everybody get up and stretch for just a second so
22
I could see what's going on.
23
(Off-the-record sidebar discussion held)
24
THE COURT:
25
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Objection sustained.
Mr. Bragg, when you met with Scott
26
Harrison and Liz Minor -- and I know I'm using that
27
loosely because you did meet with them together, but
28
there was a discussion separate -- was there ever a
130
16
discussion with Scott Harrison about duct tape or using
duct tape?
No.
What about Liz Minor?
No.
Did you ever give Scott Harrison duct tape?
No.
One of the things I forgot to ask you yesterday is
you said that you got a call later on in the evening
10
about -- Liz Minor called you and said that Phil Perry
11
was dead.
12
Do you recall that conversation?
13
Yes.
14
Did you get an earlier phone call -- or do you
15
recall an earlier phone call from Liz about the
16
appointment with Mr. Perry?
17
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
18
THE COURT:
Sustained.
19
20
Did you get any other phone calls
from Liz Perry (sic) maybe a couple hours earlier?

THE COURT:
21
22
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
Are you talking about Liz Perry. or
Liz Minor?
23
MS. KERSEY:
24
THE COURT:
25
THE WITNESS:
I'm sorry.
Liz Minor.
Thank you.
Earlier that day?
26
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Yes.
27
Yes.
28
What was that call about with Liz?
131
16
She said that -- something about the meeting was
delayed.
Why -- do you know why she called you?
She was just letting me know that she didn't think
5
6
she was going to meet with him that night.

Q
What did you -- how did you respond when she told
you that the meeting was delayed or it was a no-go or
whatever?
I didn't respond.
10
Isn't it true that you gave her Phil Perry's home
17
11
number and told her to call him?
12
No.
13
Did you tell her to call him and make sure the
14
She had Phil Perry's home phone number.
meeting was that day?
15
Yes.
16
Why did you do that?
17
Because I knew I wanted her and Scott to go talk to
18
him because Scott was down from Point Loma.
19
Because the plan was in place?
20
Yes.
21
How -- if you could recall, sir, how much time
22
passed between the first call from Liz and the second
23
phone call you got saying it was done or he's dead?
24
I don't recall.
It was hours between.
25
Now, when Mr. Boyce was asking you about this letter
26
that you had written to the archbishop, did you tell the
27
archbishop that your wife was pregnant from Phil Perry in
28
that letter?
132
17
Yes.
And you never got a response to that letter?
That's correct.
Now, when did you -- when did you write that letter
5
6
7
8
9
to the archbishop?
A
I think it was a few weeks after I met with John
Fahnestock.
So you had the meeting with Father John Fahnestock
and Phil Perry, correct?
10
Correct.
11
And then you wrote a letter to the archbishop --
12
Correct.
13
-- saying your wife was pregnant by Phil Perry?
14
Correct.
15
So it sounds like you didn't believe that the affair
16
17
was over after that meeting.

A
Well, I -- I believed it a little bit, but I did --
18
I wanted to write to them to inform them that they had a
19
deacon that was in the church that was having an affair
20
with other women.

Did you ever discuss that letter you wrote with Phil
21
22
Perry?
23
I believe I mentioned it to him.
24
25
68.
26
received from Phil Perry.
27
you?
28
You talked yesterday about a letter that you had
Yes.
Does that look familiar to
133
17
~'-.
Is that the letter you received about the meeting?
Yes.
And your concerns?
That's correct.
And that's dated February 9th, 1992.
Does that
accurately reflect, thereabouts, when you got the letter?
Yes.
So the meeting, then, with Father Fahnestock about
9
10
the affair and Danny Sandridge and all that involvement

would have been after February 9th?
11
Correct.
12
So it's fair to say, then, that the letter you wrote
13
to the archbishop about your wife being pregnant was
14
after February 9th?
15
Correct.
16
Did you ever discuss with your sister Liz that Lisa
17
was pregnant?
18
Yes.
19
And your concerns that the baby might be phil
20
Perry's?
21
Correct.
22
Now, yesterday Mr. Boyce was asking you about some
23
involvement you had in a crime of cars and driver's
24
licenses.
25
Yes.
26
Actually, you weren't charged with that.
27
28
You
actually pled guilty to stealing a car, correct?

A
That's correct.
134
17
1
2
And that conviction -- and you were sentenced
September 4th, 2002 --
That's correct.
-- to unlawful driving of a motor vehicle?
That's correct.
Now, another thing that Mr. Boyce was talking to you
about yesterday was about your parole.

You're serving a life sentence?
8
9
That is correct.
10
But you have the possibility of parole?
11
Yes.
12
And you're testifying in this case based on no
13
promises?
14
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
15
THE COURT:
Sustained.
16
MS. KERSEY:
17
18
I could rephrase.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Are you testifying with any
promises of anything?
19
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
20
THE COURT:
Overruled.
21
THE WITNESS:
22
23
Leading.
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
No, I'm not.

Now, you said that you have hope
that you are paroled.
24
That is correct.
25
But you have hope that you are paroled whether you
26
testify or not?
27
28
Correct.
Now, the letter that you anticipate being written by
135
17
my office is that you hope that it will be positive?
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
THE COURT:
It's foundational.
4
5
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
Do you hope that that letter will
be positive for you?
Yes.
Did I tell you that if you did not testify
truthfully or were uncooperative that I would write that
letter also?
10
That's correct.
11
MS. KERSEY:
12
THE COURT:
Nothing further, your Honor.

Recross?
13
RECROSS EXAMINATION
14
15
16
BY MR. BOYCE:
Q
So Miss Kersey told you that she's -- if you didn't
17
testify or you were uncooperative, she was also going to
18
write a letter for your parole file, correct?
19
20
21
No.
She said if I was not truthful, she would
address that.
And didn't she just ask you if you didn't testify
22
and if you weren't cooperative and also untruthful, one
23
of those three things, that she would also write a letter
24
to your parole file?
25
Right, but not positive.
26
No.
27
Correct.
28
It would be a bad letter in your parole file.
A negative letter, correct?
136
17
]
Yes.
One you wouldn't want in your parole file, would
you?
Yes.
If you didn't testify, didn't cooperate, and didn't
testify truthfully -- correct? -MS. KERSEY:
7
8
(BY MR. BOYCE)
-- there would be a bad letter?
MS. KERSEY:
THE COURT:
10
Misstates the evidence.

I believe that does misstate the
11
evidence.
12
if he testified untruthfully, and she did not separate
13
the adjective from -- or the adverb, so it misstates the
14
evidence.
15
16
Sustained.
(BY MR. BOYCE)
If you don't testify, though, she
told you she was going to write a letter?

MS. KERSEY:
17
18
I heard that she would write a negative letter
Misstates
the testimony.
19
MR. BOYCE:
I'm just asking
20
THE COURT:
Overruled.
21
And you don't have to get testy.
22
MR. BOYCE:
I'm sorry.
23
THE COURT:
Okay.
24
THE WITNESS:
It's overruled.
I apologize.
The only thing that was offered to
25
me was a letter stating that I was cooperative and I told
26
the truth.
27
28
(BY MR. BOYCE)
is going to --
And you're hoping that that letter
137
18
1
2
MS. KERSEY:
5
6
Asked and answered, your
Honor.
THE COURT:
3
4
Objection.
(BY MR. BOYCE)
It's overruled.
And you're hoping that letter is
going to get you out on parole, correct?

A
Well, I know that letter's not going to get me out
on parole, but I'm hoping that it's going to be one of
the positive things, along with other things that I'm
taking in state prison.
10
You're hoping it's going to help you, right?
11
Yes.
12
And you've talked to your lawyer about this, right?
13
Yes.
MS. KERSEY:
14
15
18
Asked and answered, your
,Honor.
THE COURT:
16
17
Objection.
(BY MR. BOYCE)
Sustained.
You asked your lawyer when Bobby
Dean loaned you his phone yesterday, correct?
19
I don't know whose phone that was.
20
Well, Bobby Dean loaned it to you, correct?
21
22
He
handed it to you?
MS. KERSEY:
I'd stipulate that I handed him a
23
phone so that he could -- I handed him my phone so that
24
he could talk to his attorney.
25
THE COURT:
Thank you, Miss Kersey.
26
Do you join in that stipulation, Mr. Boyce?
27
MR. BOYCE:
That's fine, yes.
28
THE COURT:
That stipulation is so received.
138
18
(BY MR. BOYCE)
Now, yesterday you told us that this
letter regarding the Jeep -- you know what letter we're
talking about?
Uh-huh.
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
Is that "yes"?
Yes.
(BY MR. BOYCE)
Yes.
-- that he had the Jeep on the specific date of
10
The letter signed by Robert --
April 14th in 1992, correct?
11
Correct.
12
You told us yesterday that Robert had the letter
13
written by your mother.

Do you remember that?
14
15
That's what you told us
yesterday, correct?
16
Correct.
17
And Robert had the letter written for insurance
18
purposes, correct?
19
Well, that's one of the reasons.
20
Okay.
That's what you told us yesterday, though,
21
22
correct?
23
Yes.
24
And did you talk to your lawyer between your
25
testimony yesterday and today?
26
No.
27
Did you talk to the detectives between your
28
testimony yesterday and today?
139
18
No.
What about Miss Kersey?
Did you talk to her between
your testimony yesterday and today?
No.
Well, then, how did you know -- why did you answer
today that the reason you -- in response to your -- to
the question by Miss Kersey, when she asked you, "Didn't
you have your mother write the letter
_ _ II
The letter was written for two reasons.
One was for
10
the insurance purposes, and the other one was to cover up
11
the Jeep being in Mexico.
12
13
But yesterday you told us Robert had the letter
written
14
MS. KERSEY:
15
THE COURT:
16
17
(BY MR. BOYCE)
20
21
22
Asked and answered.
It's overruled.
-- and today you've told us that you
had the letter written by your mother.

Why the change?
18
19
Objection.
Well, I needed the letter for the insurance
purposes.
Q
But why did you change your testimony from yesterday
till today?
23
24
night.
25
dates and things I'm not so fresh on.
26
It's just that I was -- I thought about it last

This is also a 10-year-old trial, so a lot of the
I understand.
27
And how did Miss Kersey know to ask you --
28
MS. KERSEY:
Speculative.
140
18
THE COURT:
(BY MR. BOYCE)
Sustained.
I believe you said that before the
deacon disappeared on April 13th, it was either that day
or the day before that you had a meeting with Liz in your
office -- correct? -- at B&B Enterprises?
It could have been the 13th when she had her tonsils
out.
It couldn't have been the 13th; isn't that right?
Isn't the 13th the day she had her tonsils out?
10
That's right.
11
Liz was at the hospital with us.
12
The entire day?
13
In the morning.
14
Okay.
So -- well, was she with you in the afternoon?
15
16
No.
17
So it was the day before that you met with Liz in
19
18
your office at B&B Enterprises?

MS. KERSEY:
19
20
Objection.
That misstates the
testimony, your Honor.
21
MR. BOYCE:
He
22
THE COURT:
It's just a question, so it's
23
overruled.
He could answer "yes" or "no."
24
Was it the day before or not?
25
THE WITNESS:
26
27
28
(BY MR. BOYCE)
I believe so.
And you met with Liz and Scott
Harrison in your office; is that correct?

A
I met -- yes, I met with Scott and Liz prior to them
141
19
1
2
3
4
5
meeting with Phil.
The day before in your office?
13th in your office?

A
I don't recall if it was the day before or a couple
days before.
6
7
The day before April
MR. BOYCE:
I don't have anything further, your
THE COURT:
Redirect or re-redirect?
Honor.
8
9
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
10
11
12
13
BY MS. KERSEY:
Mr. Ditommaso, do you know exactly when you met with
Liz and Scott to plan the murder of Phil Perry?
14
I know it was before Elise's surgery.
15
So when you say "before," is it a day before?
16
17
days before?
A
Or do you even remember?
It was
18
MR. BOYCE:
Objection.
19
THE COURT:
Overruled.
20
THE WITNESS:
21
22
Two
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Leading.
It was a couple days.

And the day of the surgery you said
that Liz was at the hospital?
23
Correct.
24
Did you talk to her and was that the day you sent
25
her to Union Station to pick up Scott Harrison?
26
Yes.
27
Did Scott Harrison make his own arrangements to get
28
into town?
142
19
Objection.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
Calls for speculation and
leading.
3
4
MR. BOYCE:
(BY MS. KERSEY)
Did you buy the ticket for Scott
Harrison to ride the train?
No.
Did you ask Scott to come into town?
Scott was coming into town.
Mr. Ditommaso, were you present when Deacon Perry
10
was killed?
11
No, I was not.
12
So you can't really tell us anything about the
13
14
actual homicide?
A
No.
15
MS. KERSEY:
16
I don't have anything further.
17
THE COURT:
Recross?
18
MR. BOYCE:
Nothing, your Honor.
19
THE COURT:
May this witness be excused, or do
20
Thank you.
you want him subject to recall?
21
MR. BOYCE:
Subject to recall.
22
THE COURT:
So you are subject to recall.
That
23
means we will keep you in custody here for a little bit
24
longer period until the case is completed, then if you
25
aren't subject to recall and the case is completed, we'll
26
go ahead and release you back to state prison.
27
be with us a little longer.
28
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
So you'll
143
19
THE COURT:
Make sure you don't discuss your testimony with
3
4
Thank you, Mr. Ditommaso.
any other witness.

Thank you, sir.
5
6
(End of Karl Joseph Ditommaso's testimony)
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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(End of partial transcript)
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
3
4
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
)
)
COUNTY OF SAN BERNARDINO
6
7
8
9
ss.
I, DEBRA A. GODINEZ, C.S.R., Official Reporter of the

above-entitled court, do hereby certify;
That I am a Certified Shorthand Reporter of the
State of California, duly licensed to practice; that I did
10
report in shorthand (Stenotypy) oral proceedings had upon
11
hearing of the aforementioned cause at the time and place
12
hereinbefore set forth; that the foregoing pages numbered
13
1 through 143, inclusive, constitute to the best of my
14
knowledge and belief a full, true, and correct transcription
15
of my said shorthand notes so taken on July 13th and 14th, 2005.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
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DATED this 24th day of March, 2015, at Rancho Cucamonga

California.

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1.

IN THE SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY TRIAL COURT DISTRICT

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE

Case No. FWV-032194

SCOTT FREDERIC HARRISON,

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL PROCEEDINGS

TESTIMONY OF KARL JOSEPH DITOMMASO

BEFORE HON. INGRID A. UHLER, JUDGE

For the Defendant:

(FOR THE PEOPLE) :

RANCHO CUCAMONGA, CALIF; WEDNESDAY, JULY 13, 2005; 1:45 P.M.

HON. INGRID A. UHLER, JUDGE

The Defendant HARRISON with his Counsel,

ROBERT E. BOYCE, Attorney-at-Law; CHERYL

KERSEY, Deputy District Attorney of the

County of San Bernardino, representing the

People of the State of California.

(Debra A. Godinez, C.S.R., Official

(Whereupon proceedings in this matter

were held, reported but not transcribed herein)

(The following proceedings were held

outside the presence of the jury)

We are on the matter of People vs.

Scott Harrison, who is present with Mr. Boyce.

examination of Mr. Ditommaso.

Former Sgt. Dean is present.

We are going to start with the

There had been a previous discussion in regards

to Miss Kersey made it amply clear that no statements

were made to Mr. Ditommaso except for the statements made

between her and Mr. Ditommaso in the presence of Mr.

Gebbie and Detective Perez that should have been on tape,

and I gave Mr. Boyce an opportunity to review the

transcript and listen to the audiotape of that

conversation, and that should be the end of that.

You certainly can question him, if

you want to, outside the presence of the jury.

Maybe I should just ask Mr.

Could we swear him in?

Mr. Ditommaso -- we need to swear him

KARL JOSEPH DITOMMASO,

called as a witness on behalf of the People, was sworn

and testified as follows:

You do solemnly state that the

testimony which you are about to give in this case shall

so help you God?

Please state your full name, spelling your first

and last name for the record.

Karl Joseph Ditommaso,

Hi, Mr. Ditommasso.

How are you?

How are you?

Your attorney is Bill Gebbie; is that right?

with him about a letter that is going to be written for

you to the Parole Board?

District Attorney would write a letter to the Parole

Board advising them of your cooperation and assistance in

testifying in this case; is that correct?

And it's your belief that that might

help you get out on parole at some point?

I don't know, sir.

with you at all?

He said it possibly could, but it's

up to the Parole Board if I did get a date to go home.