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Cultural Sustainability
An interview with Kenneth Frampton
By Ingerid Helsing Almaas and Einar Bjarki Malmquist
Published 05 Sep, 2006
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Kenneth Frampton is Ware Professor of Architecture at the Graduate School of Architecture, Planning and
Preservation, Columbia University, New York.
Ingerid Helsing Almaas is editor-in-chief of Arkitektur N.
Einar Bjarki Malmquist is editor of Arkitektur N.
Kenneth Frampton: It is difficult to know where to begin. I think that when I moved to the
United States in 1965, it politicised me, meaning that until I went to the United States, I was
totally naive about power for example, and the relationship between power and money... I dont
know what I thought; but the United States makes certain things very clear. An English
acquaintance said to me once, in a drunken evening: You have to understand, in England the
claws are hidden, but in the United States the claws are visible. And about the same time I read
Hannah Arendts book The Human Condition, and there are some of the arguments of that book I
will never recover from.
Part of The Human Condition is a commentary on the predicament of modernisation.
WhenModern Architecture A Critical History was published in 1980, the Czech architectural
theorist Dalibor Vesely recommended me an essay by Paul Ricoeur, Universal Civilisation and
National Cultures, which to a certain extent is a discussion about the identity of decolonialised
nations, but which actually also speaks of the predicament that even the nations of the so-called
first world find themselves in. Ricoeur defines universal civilisation as universal technology,
whereas national cultures are something that you can think of as more emotional and rooted in
language, poetry and everyday life. There is an uncomfortable relationship between these two
things, a tension.
And in view of the way you introduced your problem here in Norway, I would say that one
of the reactions, at a psychological level, to the modernisation of societies, is to deal with the
problem of psychological security by trying to pretend nothing has happened. So if you think of
American suburbs for example, what is the average American suburban house or English for
that matter there is something about the form, the pitched roof and so on, which participate in
the fiction that we are still agricultural people. People feel comfortable with this iconography.
And one could argue that in order to sustain some kind of psychological security, ordinary people
and bureaucrats on the part of ordinary people feel that it is necessary that these icons should
be somehow sustained, even if it just means a pitched roof instead of a flat one, reducing the
whole thing to one simple sign or figure.
This is why I think the most important architect of the 20th century, in terms of the 21st
century, is still Alvar Aalto. Because I think he is one of the very few architects who have been
able to build a model world, in a way, but at the same time to provide a certain level of security
for ordinary people, through his use of form and material.
KF: Well, in the last two or three years I have become more and more preoccupied with
landscape, and with topography. Polemically, I am against the idea of the building as a
freestanding object. And the question of place, then, becomes a question of how the built form is
integrated with the ground, with the topos.
In terms of Gottfried Sempers four basic elements of architecture: the hearth, the
earthwork, the framework/roof, and the enclosing membrane, I think that the earthwork is
fundamental, maybe more so than the roofwork. And it's curious in a way that the building
regulations should put such an aesthetic emphasis on the roof, because the earthworks are more
important, I think, from the point of view of place.
IHA: How does your interest in earthwork translate to an urban condition?
KF: Its always present. We always have to put the building into the ground. And the
question of how the ground is treated, and how you pass from the existing ground to the new
ground of the building is always a very sensitive aspect. I think one of the tragic things about
modernisation is that there is a very strong effort to turn building into a commodity. And of
course the freestanding object is already moving towards its own commodification. The object
that is integrated into the ground has the capacity to resist that commodification. And I think that
would apply whether its inside the city or outside the city, although it can be more dramatic in a
natural landscape.
Another important thing is the experience of the body. We live in a modern world, with its
emphasis on images, of course, which has a tendency to make people rather insensitive to other
aspects, but the experience of a building on a tactile level is perhaps even more important that
the visual.
IHA: Going back to that sense of security that was your explanation of our municipal
guidelines... Is this common physical experience, the phenomenological level of architecture, a
way to replace or develop this image of security that the pitched roof provides? Do you think that
if this phenomenological level of experience was made more explicit, more available, that it
could be a way for architects to communicate with the general public?
KF: I think so. I think one of the predicaments for architects today is the uncomfortable
opposition between kitsch, on the one hand, and a kind of neo-avant-gardism on the other. In my
opinion they are both negative. Neo-avant-gardism is like an endless striving for originality that
affords no references to ordinary people. And on the other hand, reducing the laws of aesthetics
into whether theres a pitched roof or not, tends towards kitsch: You are just looking for the
cheap signs that you can sell people. These positions are almost polar opposites.
And in schools of architecture this issue is never discussed. The problem is how to make
housing, for example, which would be accessible to a generalised middle class identity and not
be kitsch. And why middle class identity? Because all these people that we now talk about in
terms of multi-culturalism, are ultimately because of our mediatic society, because of
modernisation, and because of television they are programmed to become middle class. What
else are they programmed to become? So even if the parents were born in Pakistan, the children
aspire to be middle class Norwegians, if this is where they are. And then the problem for
architects is: How can you create a middle class environment that is not kitsch? That is modern,
but not kitsch?
IHA: You think this schism is actually that uncomfortable to people? Are they not simply
happy to live with it? Does the experience of holding a ceramic cup in one hand and a mobile
phone in the other actually cause that much pain?
KF: Well, it is unconscious of course, but at a subliminal level I think people are looking
for reassurance. If you think of well, were of course getting into politics rather heavily here...
IHA: Yes, lets get into politics.
KF: If you take the Oscars for example, and the business world of Hollywood... Well, it
may be different here in Norway where at least some people are very wealthy...
IHA: In a global context, we are pretty much all very wealthy.
KF: Yes. But even here, when it comes to distribution if wealth, there are problems.
IHA: Yes.
KF: But anyway, the Oscars and Hollywood provide dream worlds that enable people to
suffer their difficult lives, or sustain themselves in relation to their difficulties. A very interesting
writer, Thomas Frank, wrote a book after Bush was elected the second time, called Whats the
matter with Kansas?. Kansas is a very impoverished state, yet they voted for the Republican
Party. And why did these people vote for this party which is so manifestly the government of the
super-rich the Republican party pretends to care about other people, but it has no real interest.
Its really very tragic and ironic, and what does it mean? That this government really stands for
the future of the United States?
EBM: Norway is a rich country where people are taken good care of by a highly developed
welfare state Couldnt you imagine that this strong sense of public obligation would show in
architecture? That it would at least affect the programming of architecture?
KF: Referring to my earlier point about reaching the middle class: It comes back to the
same thing, the kitsch or the new avant-garde; at both extremes buildings are treated as
trademarks. The spectacular buildings of Frank Gehry or Rem Kolhaas, the new avant-garde, or
the kitsch of New Urbanism, for example. They are two poles. It is almost as though they are two
functions, in late capitalist consumerist societies, as if these two ends of the scale are performing
two different ideological roles.
It is not so easy to raise the consciousness in architecture schools about this, as long as you
shy away from exposing the hidden political dimension. There is a tendency not to talk about
such issues; its associated with a degree of discomfort.
IHA: It is strange how certain things are excluded from the common level of discourse
theres sex of course, and money but it is strange that the discussion of issues that have
political implications seem to embarrass people.
KF: It is a kind of repression, unconsciously absorbed repression. What else is it? Its as though
people feel if the discussion goes in the direction of politics it will lead to conflict...
But it is not all a question of politics. I think the really complex work of architecture ought
to have more than one level to it, ought to be able to deal with this question of reflecting a certain
identity, without reducing things to just that. But the aesthetic regulations of the building code
are by definition reductive. You have to have a pitched roof you can do what the hell you like
with the rest, but you have to have a pitched roof that is by definition reductive.
IHA: But conceiving and realising this multi-levelled work or architecture is that a
question of personal talent? Or is there something you can do in schools of architecture that can
give architecture in general a richer background of reference?
KF: I think there are things you can do in schools of architecture, but you have to really
work at it. I think there is a lot of architectural theory today that has a somewhat obscurantist
effect And then there is the other theory that is ultra-technological, that would reduce things to
the universal civilisation, to quote Ricoeur again. Typical of that is the current trend for
digitalised draughting, and digitalised generation of form. A thought that occurs to me is that this
is also an effort for part of architecture trying to legitimise itself on the back of technology,
similar to the modular rationalised prefabricated production in the 1960s for example.
Technology is a way of legitimising the profession.
IHA: In several of your recent essays, you place a great deal of responsibility for architecture on
the client. In Norway at least, architects often feel very alone in trying to fight for quality against
the windmills of building finance for example. At the same time, current practice and contractual
conditions have meant that the design and production of a building is actually a collaborative
effort. Would a higher level of general public discourse on architecture and planning be
an advantage?
KF: The paradox is that architecture gets more media exposure now than it used to get. The
spectacular side of architecture gets a lot of attention. But I dont have an answer to your
question about public discourse. Perhaps its a question of the general level of education about
the environment in general, and the built environment in particular. This ought to be part of
national educational policy.
IHA: If you extended that imaginary architectural curriculum to take in the environment as
a whole, rather than just the built environment, that could potentially ignite a completely
different public interest in architecture. Environment, rather than built environment, is a term
that is already deeply rooted in public discourse. That angle could give architecture, and
architects, a new and different public role, if they were willing and able to take it.
EBM: So the angle of the question is: Is there any mission left for architects in the modern
world? Is your idea of resistance the architects mission?
KF: This also has a political dimension. Even if it might be somewhat quixotic, Im
someone who thinks that even though it was a totalitarian state, the collapse of the Soviet Union
was some kind of a disaster. Not for the Russians, but because it meant the triumph of
global capitalism.
IHA: Well, it means there are no alternatives left.
KF: No alternatives. There is no other. I think that is very negative for the current
historical situation. And perhaps only by stressing the complexity of things, the complexity of the
relationship between nature and culture, can we move on from here. The question of the
environment, is already becoming equally quixotic, in that there seems to be overwhelming
evidence that if things dont change in the next ten years, or five years even, the so-called tipping
point will be reached; in which case, if one believes the scientists, the ice caps are going to melt,
and the consequences are beyond belief. The water levels will rise, and a lot of coastal property
will be under water.
And in that sense, with reference to our earlier points about ordinary people and the need
for unconscious suppression of certain incongruent things, I think people really dont want to
know. The topic surfaces from time to time in the newspapers and so on, but no one knows what
to do about it.
You think that at some point people will be forced to do something, even if its a bit late,
and then maybe the political climate will change. Because the idea that one can go on consuming
at the rate of todays western societies is a fallacy. And perhaps some kind of collective
awareness will eventually manifest itself. This is where architecture, if it had already developed
the tools to deal with the problem at the necessary level of complexity, could really present
an avant-garde.
Facts:
The interview took place at the Grand Caf in Oslo, Thursday 10 august 2006. Portrait of Kenneth Frampton by
Cherish Rosas, courtesy of Ghost 13 International Architecture Conference: Ideas in Things, 2011.
architecture norway
post@architecturenorway.no
CopyrightArkitektur N 2015
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