JUNE 16, 2015

IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY PARISH

TOTO, GUAM
ARCHBISHOP ANTHONY APURONS PASTORAL VISIT
QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION TRANSCRIPT
DISCLAIMER:
The following was transcribed from a recording taken during the Question and Answer segment
of the Archbishops pastoral visit to the Immaculate Heart of Mary Parish. Not all information
may be accurate and it is not recommended to use this for any official purposes.
PARISHIONER
(00:00)

<inaudible> Archbishop, you made a decision which really affected our

parish despite our requests for you to reconsider rescinding that request.
And that resulted in many of us parishioners losing our trust in you and
beginning to question. <inaudible> So my question to you, Arch, is:
what is your plan to help restore our trust so that we no longer fear what
is going to happen next to our parish?

ARCHBISHOP
(00:57)

<inaudible> What was the question? <inaudible> the question that you
were asking.

PARISHIONER
(01:09)

Seven, eight years ago we rallied because of your decision to remove

our parish priest at that time.

ARCHBISHOP
(01:19)

Fr. Manny?

PARISHIONER
(01:20)

Yes. We petitioned and we requested that you reconsider that decision

of yours. But despite our requests, your decision still stood. Which led
us to actually stress and to begin questioning whether you agree to listen
to your people. And again my question is: what is your plan to help
restore that trust back in our parishioners, so that we no longer fear what
is going to happen next to our parish.

ARCHBISHOP
(01:58)

First of all my duty, as a bishops duty, has the ultimate authority in the
diocese for all the priests and their activities. And when Father Manny
rebelled against me saying that I dont want the Neocatechumenal Way
that automatically does not prescribed catechesis, my So I ask you
then, if you dont like them, then you try it.

PARISHIONER
(02:23)

Yes, Im fully aware of that through meetings you scheduled for the
Neocatechumenal Way and nobody showed up so that in a way shows
that the Immaculate Heart of Mary Parishioners are not ready as of that
time. Not ready as in Im not saying were not going to be, but were not
ready at that time.

ARCHBISHOP
(02:42)

He have told me that himself before I removed him. So then I asked

of him if you would be willing to be moved and he was willing.
<inaudible> So Im very sorry for that, okay? Its not as if, you know,
the church, its not as if, or the parishioners, the people can object to the
decision of the <inaudible> but if there is something the priest did and

even me if I have an issue with the Pope <inaudible> he has not yet
<inaudible>. But when a priest stands up against the bishop then theres
something quite wrong. <inaudible> I cant say anything, we have to
wait until the final decision from Rome. And Im sorry <inaudible> I
will try to do my best, but I guess <inaudible> I asked him if
<inaudible> I will try to do what I can in the time that I have because I
dont have too long. In five years I will have to resign when I turn 75
and then the Pope will have to decide who will be the next bishop. But
until such time that he does make that decision, I guess <inaudible>
PARISHIONER
(05:15)

Yes I am fully aware that you do make the ultimate decision, but maybe
what could have helped then if you could have met with the parishioners
and then make that decision that was made. <inaudible> And maybe
then you could have met with all the parishioners and then all of that
could have been prevented. And thats why Im asking you, you need to
restore our trust. Thank you.

PARISHIONER
(05:59)

Good evening, my name is Donna Aguon Quichocho. Archbishop, you

brought up the incident of Monsignor James and Father Paul, and my
question to you is this, and we understand that you cannot say anything
because it is with Rome now. So everything is in Rome, you cant do
anything else. If, to restore the confidence of the faithful in the church,
would you consider putting Monsignor James and Father Paul back in
their positions, as pastors wherever they came from, if they took back, if
they rescinded their case with Rome? Because a lot of the hurt and
anger coming from us people is because of that. Because you made a
decision based on what we feel that has to do a lot with the Neo
CommuniI dont know what it is. But to us, a lot of us that but if
Monsignor James and Father Paul are put back, and these are your
fellow priests, and Im sorry we have a lot priests that we do not
understand. Theyre up there on the pulpit preaching I went to a
wedding where the priest told the bride and groom that your husband is
going to fool around! Where is that coming from!? Coming from one of
the Neocatechumenal priests. I have no problems with where you want
to be and however you want to get by. But when youre preaching stuff
like that, thats not what were learning. So theres a lot of hurt, a lot of
pain. But if the two rescind their case with Rome, are you willing to put
them back or at least listen to them?

ARCHBISHOP
(08:06)

Well if Rome decides thats the best way for them, thats fine.

PARISHIONER
(08:10)

No, <inaudible> and if the two rescind their case then there is no case in
Rome, so its not back to you.

ARCHBISHOP
(08:18)

But unfortunately the case is in Rome because theyre the ones

<inaudible>

PARISHIONER

Of course its Rome but if they took it back <inaudible> then there isnt

(08:23)

a case.

ARCHBISHOP
(08:33)

But the fact is the case is in Rome.

PARISHIONER
(08:35)

Of course we understand that but the two may be willing to rescind their
case. And when they rescind, there is no more case. Correct? If they
rescind then there is nothing. So if there is nothing, then you can adjust
the issue with two. And then a lot of the people who are not satisfied
with what happened with the two, those are good priests. And you seem
to put them in the backburner when it comes to your priests. And we
call them your priests because, you know they are our priests. The
respect for the priests is there, my respect for you as the archbishop is
there, the position. But I do not agree with what you are doing, its not
right.

ARCHBISHOP
(09:27)

Then write to Rome and have them remove me, and Ill be willing if
Rome says youre removed.

PARISHIONER
(09:32)

No, you are <inaudible> I dont want you removed. We want to fix
whats broken. Thats what we want. We dont want <inaudible> I mean
you can join the Neo Community or whatever, but a lot of it stems from
that. The case with Father Paul and Monsignor is all out in the news.
Whats with the case with Father Luis? We hear that he ran away and is
somewhere, nothing. <inaudible> Hes protected. And our local priests
are not protected. <inaudible> We fear that Fr. Mike is going to be done
the same way. So, you show good faith in having us without a priest
again, and that was a good thing. We want to know whats with the
other two <inaudible> You consider an open dialogue <inaudible>

ARCHBISHOP
(10:50)

Again, bring it up to Rome. If they decide to rescind their case and

Rome tells me there is no more case then I will agree with that.

PARISHIONER
(11:01)

But in the meantime, Rome doesnt have to decide anything. If they

bring their case back, no more case lets sit down and talk. <inaudible>

ARCHBISHOP
(11:21)

I know <inaudible> again, Rome told me not to do anything until such

time <inaudible>. And you know actually the two priests are still
functioning as priests because another parishioner thought they cannot
even say Mass, they can go anywhere to say Mass. <inaudible> Until
their case is resolved.

PARISHIONER
(12:25)

Archbishop, this is a question that is being raised on paper and I will

read it for you:
About six months ago, a question was publicly asked of you: why do
your people, the Neos, Im going to read it verbatim, okay? Continue to
receive Communion sitting down, this is a violation of our church
rubrics. I guess you respond to that first and then I will go to the next
one.

ARCHBISHOP
(13:00)

They were given permission by the Pope, even as far back as Saint John
Paul, Pope Benedict, and also Pope Francis assured them they can
celebrate the Eucharist the way they want to celebrate. Because at the
Last Supper they even reclined, Jesus was reclining with His Apostles.
John the Beloved even laid his head on the chest of Jesus, and in time
for communion I guess he sat up a little bit. They were not kneeling
down, they were not standing, they were sitting. Apparently Rome
doesnt see any problem with that if they want to receive communion
receiving it sitting down. But they have to stand first <inaudible> They
have to stand to receive the cup.

PARISHIONER
(13:48)

Okay, you noted then that your practice was approved by Rome, but
then you have to find the document that allows it, it is somewhere. Have
you found that document yet?

ARCHBISHOP
(14:12)

It is in the statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way, okay?

PARISHIONER
(14:16)

Will you share it with us so we will no longer be scandalized by the

continued violation of your Neos, of rubrics, and of your own NCW
statutes?

ARCHBISHOP
(14:33)

Well let me look it up and then well try and see if we can print it out
and send it out, okay?

PARISHIONER
(14:46)

My name is Kathy <inaudible> and I guess my question is personal.

When my husband stood in front of the Cathedral defending Monsignor
James and that spread came out in the Umatuna Si Yuus. Are you
stating that or calling my husband a liar because he stood in defense of
Monsignor James? And if you are, kindly tell him.

ARCHBISHOP
(15:23)

Thank you Kathy. No and I think we were trying to defend it and at that
time I dont know all the issues behind it but since his removal, and he
was willing to go, at least maybe reluctantly, to move out of the
Cathedral and allow someone take over and we started looking into the
financials nai, we discovered otherwise. So, Im not placing blame on
those trying to defend him.

PARISHIONER
(15:52)

Yeah but you made it seem, whoever was looking into it made it seem
that these people were lying. And it makes it seem like Oh, wow, the
financial council at the Cathedral back up Monsignor James And you
of all people know that my mother and my brothers and sisters are
staunch Neos. I dont believe in it because I experienced certain things
with Father Pius that I will not even share with this community.

ARCHBISHOP
(16:43)

Again, Im sorry for the hurt but the facts have to speak for itself nai.

PARISHIONER
(16:54)

Archbishop, you know as I worked with Joe Rivera <inaudible> and

also Rick Duneas, <inaudible> who is the CPA. When we were looking

through the books we never saw anything that was stated publicly by
<inaudible> and all these things that were said about Monsignor James.
We didnt see anything of that at that time or anything irregular. All we
saw was three hundred some parishioners of Agana which I grew up in.
My family was from Agana, we supported that church. But, for the
statement that Monsignor James had mishandled the money, theres
three hundred people that cannot support the Cathedral when it
encompasses the whole island. Thats what we were looking at, how can
300 people support the seminary, the functions of the seminary, all the
other functions that are held at the Cathedral-Basilica. And when that
came out how can we say a statement like that and put a priest who I
saw since he started at the Cathedral and then right after his anniversary
he was kicked out. He wasnt asked to leave, I saw him with all his stuff
in the garage while he was packing while they moved him out and he
had to come in with somebody to help to get his things out. Its wasnt
like he wanted to do it. He was forced out.
ARCHBISHOP
(18:51)

Again Art, Im so sorry. When I had to report to the Cardinal in Rome

whos in charge of the mission dioceses, the archdioceses, of the world.
He kept asking me when are you going to submit the audited report of
the Archdiocese of Agana, I said Your Eminence we have done the
audit for all our parishes and all of our schools the only one cannot be
accomplished yet because there are big irregularities as they have
seen from whatever documents have been given to them. The Cardinal
then said we have to remove the obstacle to the audit. And then I
confronted Father James and he felt that there was nothing wrong with
what he was doing and where these reports are coming. I said
Monsignor James the Cardinal was not happy with that so he asked me
to have you removed. So that we can try and get that place audited or
the financial report up to par so that we can be audited. So we are on the
way as I see it now, right?

PARISHIONER
(19:55)

Yes sir I understand. You gave him a letter in June saying these are the
five things that needed to be looked at. We were informed one morning
that you gave us a deadline of August 15. <inaudible> July 29
<inaudible> was when you removed Monsignor James. And up until
today you still dont have anything. All the accusations against
Monsignor, against Joe, against me, against Rich it seems like we did
something wrong. And all we were doing was <inaudible> church. I
think something needs to get done here. And Im here Im not going to
say I hate the Neos. I believe the Neos probably help certain people. But
I also believe that I am a traditional Catholic, I dont want to celebrate
Masses the wayIm not taught that way. Im always taught dont go
up to altar, dont do this, dont eat before you receive Communion.
<inaudible> And if your plan is to change all the churches and make it
all Neo <inaudible> then youre going to lose 100,000 Catholics, and
we dont want that. <inaudible>

ARCHIBSHOP
(21:28)

Well Im not forcing the Neo, really, on anyone. Its always optional
<inaudible> In fact there are some that join and then they decided it is
really not for them so then they just walk away. So then they just
become a part of the regular church if you want to call it that.

PARISHIONER
(21:49)

My name is <inaudible>. I want to thank you first for coming here and
visiting with our parish and I hope you find real good faith and are
happy to be here in our parish. Of course Father Mike has been a great
parish priest at least for me and for the rest of our parish. <inaudible>
increased spiritual growth in our parish. I have two questions to ask you:
first of all, what is the difference between a Neo Mass and a Roman
Catholic Mass? The second question that I ask you is the tenure for
Monsignor Benavente and Father Gofigan, does that mean anything to
you as a Catholic or Archbishop? The tenure theyve had being a priest
and following all the rules and regulations of the Catholic Church? Does
that mean anything to you and what will it take to restore them back to
where they came from? Santa Barbara for Father Gofigan and Agana for
Monsignor Benavente.

ARCHBISHOP
(23:00)

Thank you. The Neo Mass is still the same Roman Catholic Mass.
The difference is when they celebrate, they celebrate it with <inaudible>
have hour or forty-five minutes on Sundays before the next scheduled
Mass. They do it Saturday nights so that it doesnt interfere with the
regular parish Mass. So usually they wait for all the parish masses are
over. Usually five or six at the Cathedral <inaudible> last Mass. And
they dont have their Masses until about 7:30 on Saturday night. It is
valid as anybody who goes to a Saturday night Mass because
<inaudible> Sunday Mass. Again theres some differences in how they
celebrate it because they normally celebrate for an hour and half. And
thats nothing to them in a sense, they enjoy that because they
<inaudible> the readings. They have what is called an admonition trying
to engage people <inaudible> to try and listen hard to what is coming
out of the reading. And then after the Gospel theres sometimes what is
called an echo, or a reflection, on did anything touch you in this reading
before the priest goes into the homily. And then the rest of the Mass
goes as normal. In Communion, as someone pointed out, they receive
the host in their hand. But they have to stand of course and then they sit
down. And then they wait for everybody to receive the host or the bread
that is consecrated. And then the wine also they give it to them
individually, they receive it standing as a sign of reverence. And that has
been allowed by the Church, so you know that is still a Roman Catholic
Mass or what you want to call it.

PARISHIONER
(24:42)

But theres still a major difference because you said they have their
Mass on Saturdays. Are we all invited? Is there a paper that we can read
about the Neo Mass so that we can understand it instead of us thinking
I wonder about the Neo Mass, what do they do over there? Do they do

certain things that we-- I was brought up in a traditional Catholic family,

so the Mass was very traditional for me. And any change, like our
elders, any change is an obstacle for them. So, is there a pamphlet or a
booklet that we can read so that you can explain the Neo Mass? So that
we can follow and then maybe we as adults can choose and say Hey we
need go to the Neo Mass. But I dont think that should be a choice, I
think that a Roman Catholic Mass is a Roman Catholic Mass and we all
celebrate Mass that way.
ARCHBISHOP
(25:47)

There are pamphlets and Im sure well find a way to try and explain
that.

PARISHIONER
(25:56)

Archbishop, there was a question from <inaudible> Why does the

Redemptoris Mater Seminary import the seminarians <inaudible> when
we only have 19 parishes on this island and why are there a higher
amount of seminarians yet we do not have the right amount of parishes
to house these seminarians.

ARCHBISHOP
(26:34)

The Redemptoris Mater Seminarians come really from the various

communities of the Neocatechumenal Way in their original country and
when they go to an annual meeting in Rome, just outside of Rome in St.
<inaudible> Theyre asked if these boys, if they feel they are willing to
enter a seminary, theyre asked if they are willing to go to any seminary
if their name is pulled out of a basket, by lottery they call it. So the ones
that come here, if the Guam seminary is called, theyre asked if they
want to go here, they could say yes or they could say no. Then they
become seminarians for the archdiocese, they are trained for the
archdiocese, they are involved in the archdiocese. But also with a
missionary outlook see, the regular diocesan priests they are not meant
to go out to the missions, they are meant to serve the diocese in the
parishes. There are 26 parishes by the way, not 19, weve been
improving, weve been growing. But they still remain priests of the
archdiocese and even if they go away for missions for a while,
eventually they will have to come back because they belong to us.

PARISHIONER
(27:48)

Archbishop,, <inaudible> the faith of the island was built by the

Capuchins from before the war, after the war, and I have a lot of respect
because they built the church in Guam. Why do you ignore your brother
Capuchins? They dont support the Neo and why should I listen to
Father Pius who is, in my opinion, segregating 99% of the Catholic
churchgoers with the 1,000 that you <inaudible> Why cant you listen
to your fellow Capuchins? I have more confidence in them and they
dont support the Neo. So why should I support the Neo? We are
traditional Catholics like a lot of us here. And I think thats the dividing
issue here. You are neglecting 99% of your Catholic community in
Guam for a few outsiders who come here and want to change the way
we worship God! Before you answer I want to thank you because we
have been wanting to hear from you.

ARCHBISHOP
(29:30)

Im not really trying to change the church. The Neocatechumenal Way

really grew out of a reflection of how the church lived in the primitive
times before we became a bureaucratic society. Of course the Emporer
Constantine who allowed the Church to grow and big buildings to be
built then by the church <inaudible>. The Neocatechumenal Way is
trying to live out the primitive church. <inaudible> If you read the Acts
of the Apostles, that we began reading the beginning of Easter, and all
the readings during the week. It shows the difficultness and <inaudible>
they even had because they were Jewish and they belonged to the
Jewish temple. Then why are you, the followers of the way, thats what
they were called from the very beginning, because Jesus tried to change
the way they worshipped. They said he came not to abolish the old but
to accomplish the Will of God. So were trying to relive out how the
church lived in the early, early days. And it is an optional thing, see,
nobody is being forced. And my brother Capuchins, unfortunately,
honestly, because Ive talked to them many times back, that the spirit of
St. Franics was very radical in his time, he tried to rebuild the church.
And he was not quite accepted at the very beginning too. It was only
until much, much later <inaudible> that they began to accept the
Charism, if you will, of the Franciscan spirit. So it takes a while, and
nobody is being forced really into the Neocatechumenal Way if they
dont want to. But, I think, Im trying to listen because the <inaudible>
has been encouraging me to try and find ways to renew the people. And
I know this cannot come off the pulpit on a weekly basis and a weekday
basis also you know. So these people want to try and study the scripture,
try to live the scripture, and make the scripture apart of their lives. And
also the Eurcharist, to celebrate it in a way that can mean something to
them. Now if it doesnt touch, it doesnt affect other people then thats
fine.

PARISHIONER
(31:43)

I still dont understand why you have to listen to Father Pius.

<inaudible> If I remember correctly they still celebrate the Mass the
traditional way in Rome. They dont sit down, so why are you trying to
change the way we worship God? And I think thats the basic issue here.
You are alienating and you are causingand Im sorry Archbishop
but youre causing division among your relatives who have been
<inaudible> into the Neo and its causing a division. Look around, go
into every village, and you can see that people are not happy with the
way you are handling the church.

ARCHBISHOP
(32:49)

Write to the Pope and ask him to remove me.

PARISHIONER
(33:53)

Thats not an answer, Archbishop. <inaudible> There has to be some

kind of <inaudible> We really need to put down <inaudible> Because,
yes, I am alienated. Being the only one <inaudible> and shes got her
habit on as a Carmelite. And it has caused me a lot of grief. So there has

to be some kind of compromise somewhere. You know. People say and

talk about priests saying their homily. Sunday morning, 9:30, on
Mothers day. Father Walsh says the Mass, this is a childrens Mass,
talks about love and then turns around and talks about sexual revolution.
And my two altar servers sat there after Mass and asked my boys what
was fathers homily about? My older one says, Sex Grandma, and
<inaudible> ice cream. The little one turns around and says, Well
didnt you hear father? Ice cream is good for you, its pleasure. This is
what I dont want my grandchildren to hear in a church! It belongs
somewhere else. He talks about <inaudible> abortion, contraceptives,
homosexuality, childrens Mass on Mothers Day! You dont bring that
up on Mothers Day. Im really disappointed that my two altar servers
caught onto that. I dont want to hear that kind of sermon in a church. It
belongs in a conference on adults. <inaudible> What do these kids
understand? Its sermons, homilies, like that which really turn people
away. You have to really look into your audience and see who is in the
congregation. If youre going to talk about something, youre going to
talk about sexual revolution, make sure theyre not tiny ears who are
hearing it. I didnt appreciate it. I didnt appreciate Father Walshs
sermon on Mothers Day on love. I really didnt. And if you dont
believe it, I have it recorded.
PARISHIONER
(36:07)

I dont think anybody wants us to write to Rome to ask you to resign. I

think our people are here to reach out for reconciliation. I think our
purpose here at the parish of Immaculate Heart of Mary is to reconcile
that gap between our shepherd and the sheep. I believe what Im hearing
and I was posed a question as I was walking around. Archbishop it
appears that when you celebrate the Mass, in the past, your celebrations
came from here. Today it appears everything comes from reading a
piece of paper. And the people feel that. They feel that it no longer
comes from your heart which is the heart of the people. The people want
to reconcile you between the traditional Catholics and those Catholics,
dont even want to use the Neocatechumenal Way, because to me it is a
requirement if you will, it is a must. People enjoy being in the way. And
Im sure you do. Im sure you enjoy being a member of the community
that you are a part of. But we are crying out to you, we as a parish here
at Immaculate Heart cry out to you because you are our shepherd. And
we would like reconciliation to show that there is no division because
we are One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. And those are what we need
to bring out church together. We are, as <inaudible> ten years ago, we
are the carrier in the ocean and all these little ships here are connected to
you. And all these people want you to show your leadership to all of us.
But it appears as if it is just towards the Community and were
neglected on the other side. This is just the appearance that is being
portrayed as a result of the Archbishop not answering to the many of the
accusations that are out there. I mean I dont want to read the blog, and I

dont want to read the blog because I simply dont believe in blogs. As a
member of the GEC theyve blogged me all the way down to Hell.
Because as I served that I could feel your loneliness being at the helm of
our carrier. So, if you will, these people want your leadership, do you
agree Archbishop that there is a division in our Catholic Church here on
Guam?
ARCHBISHOP
(39:56)

There is a perception, yes.

PARISHIONER
(40:08)

First of all, <inaudible> Your Excellency, save yourself the trouble of

further looking for that document that Rome authorizes sitting down
during Communion because you will not find it. It is not there. In the
Neocatechumenal statutes, it is not there. It is in the 2002 statutes.
<inaudible> When the 2008 statutes came out, that was not there. So
save yourself the trouble of looking for it because you will not find it.
<inaudible> The difference, Archbishop, is very simple and you could
explain it just this way in the Catholic way we celebrate the Mass is a
sacrifice, a holy sacrifice of the Mass. We were taught since catechism
that what happens at Mass is a repetition of what happened when
Jesus it is not a symbol it is a repitition, it is the same the same
priest, it is the same sacrifice. In the Neo Way, the Mass is a celebration,
a celebration of the last supper. <inaudible> The difference between the
Neo Mass and a Catholic Mass is that one is a celebration and the other
is a sacrifice. And at that sacrifice we receive the body and blood, soul
and divinity of Jesus Christ. <inaudible>

PARISHIONER
(42:57)

My name is <inaudible>. <Chamorro> I am a parishioner of IHOM. I

have a question, are you fully aware that there is a major division
happening in the Roman Catholic Church here <inaudible> One that is
dividing not just Neos against Neos, but ecclesital leaders against their
sheep, pastors against their parishioners, parents against their children,
siblings against each other, spouses against each other, relatives and
close friends against each other, <inaudible> are you fully aware that
this is happening? Or are your eyes closed <inaudible>

ARCHBISHOP
(44:12)

Well, Im aware of it because Jesus himself predicted it that there will

be parents against children, children against parents, siblings against
siblings, and all these kinds of things. But <inaudible>

PARISHIONER
(44:26)

Alright so if youre fully aware of what I tell you, then Bishop what
concrete evidence can you show us that you have given and still are
giving your honest, your sincere, and your efficacious best to
<inaudible> true healing in our church through actions and deeds, not
through words. Can you give us any proof that you are doing that?

ARCHBISHOP
(45:56)

Well the fact that Im going around visiting parishes. Because I was also
directed by Rome to go out and visit the people, visit the priests, and
even the deacons.

PARISHIONER
(45:10)

And that is the extent of your best, honest, sincere, and efficacious way
to bring healing to this hurting church? Is that your best effort?

ARCHBISHOP
(45:21)

Maybe not the best, but Im really trying, Im trying hard, nai.

PARISHIONER
(45:27)

I suggest you try harder.

ARCHBISHOP
(45:28)

Thank you.

PARISHIONER
(45:30)

Number 2, on <inaudible> I sent you a personal letter <inaudible>

suggestions that I think you need to do to bring true healing to the
division in our church. In my letter I gave you five suggestions. Number
1: Reject and sever your relationship with the NCW because that is the
root problem of this whole thing. <inaudible> Number 2: <inaudible>
Archbishop, repent of your errors and the wrong you have committed.
<inaudible> Number 3: Repair the harm that you have done to Father
Paul and the others. Number 4: Return to your flock, Archbishop. Your
flock that has been crying for you to return. Return to us, again, just as
Jesus prayed to the Father. <inaudible> Number 5: Rejoice when you
come back <inaudible> We will welcome back any repentant person.
My question is, Archbishop, have you done any of this as signs of
bringing healing to the church which is reject, repent, repair, return to
us? <inaudible> Have you done any of this?

ARCHBISHOP
(47:28)

I tried even because even the Apostolic delegate and the visitor from the
Vatican that try and see if you can reconcile even with the two priests
while their case is in the Rome. I did call them in individually, we met
at the Friary because I thought that would be a neutral place, and they
first insisted I wanted to be put back at Santa Barbara, he did not admit
that he did anything wrong. Monsignor James also I want to be put back
down at the Cathedral, he did not admit anything wrong either. And I
said your case is being appealed already and it is out there publicly and
Rome is telling me wait until you hear the final decision from Rome. I
dont know what else I can do, Im praying for them and I hope that
somehow we will be reconciled <inaudible>

PARISHIONER
(48:18)

<Chamorro>

ARCHBISHOP
(55:41)

<Chamorro>

PARISHIONER
(56:07)

Archbishop, a parishioner would like to know where Father Luis

Camacho is.

ARCHBISHOP
(56:15)

He is in the Holy Land. <inaudible> Where he is repenting <inaudible>

He has to appear in court sometime next year, a date is already set.

<inaudible> In the meantime I asked him to go and be thinking about

his vocation and living a life of prayer. <inaudible>
PARISHIONER
(57:07)

The second question was you spoke about writing a letter to Rome
asking them to remove me. The question was, why dont you just
resign?

ARCHBISHOP
(57:30)

Because as of now the Pope has confidence in me and the Cardinals

have confidence in me that they feel what I am doing is for the benefit
of the church even if others feel otherwise.

PARISHIONER
(57:51)

Good evening Your Excellency. Thank you for being here this evening
and today visiting our Parish. My name is Christine. My question for
you is earlier you said there is a perception of division in our church.
And perhaps for you to actually turn around <inaudible> and theres
perception of biases, a perception of favoritism, for lack of better words.
But as our spiritual leader, you said are going around to all the parishes
which is, thank you for that... <inaudible> Its going to take more than
visiting a parish once and you stated in your homily this evening that
<inaudible>, so thank you for fulfilling that obligation. How can we
look at you as our shepherd and know that you are truly are looking out
for all of us? <inaudible> So what do you plan to do to address that
perception?

ARCHBISHOP
(59:05)

Well we have formed what is called an ad hoc committee and we are in

conversation with members of the CCOG, the Concerned Catholic of
Guam. And they are beginning to meet discreetly and <inaudible> begin
to bring issues on the table so to speak and begin to try help resolve that.
So were trying to look forward to that. The problem is <inaudible>
blown out of proportion. So I ask you for the church really <inaudible>.

PARISHIONER
(1:00:01)

Good evening Archbishop. I was born a Catholic, raised a Catholic, and

I love being a Catholic, and I love my Catholic Church. My question is
through another parishs homily, there was a question, not a question, a
comment, by one of the priests that said Jesus is a sinner. You know,
Im confused because being born a Catholic and being raised a Catholic
Jesus is not a sinner. But on his homily, he said that He was a sinner. So
is this the Neo way of how we perceive Jesus? As Jesus being a sinner?
And if it is then I think this whole thing has confused a lot of people and
it has probably caused a lot of things the way people perceive their
homily and how they preach their way. So I just wanted to confirm with
you and ask if Jesus is a sinner.

ARCHBISHOP
(01:01:34)

[Well Id like to know who that priest is protestant. (Conjecture)] But

I did ask the question in one of the Confirmation kids when I tested, and
sometimes I test the kids before Confirmation in the church, and the kid
goes to school at Father Duenas and my question to him was, Did Jesus
sin? and he said, Yes., and then I said, Wow.

AUDIENCE
(01:02:00)

He probably listened to that priest. [laughter] Im just saying.

ARCHBISHOP
(01:02:05)

<inaudible> But no, Hes not a sinner. He appeared to be sin and caught
by sins as if He were a sinner and thats how he died <inaudible>
sinless. <inaudible> Honestly Id like to know who that priest is so that
<inaudible> and tell him thats wrong theology.

PARISHIONER
(01:02:56)

Your Excellency, I paid very clear attention to what you said. What you
said is an outright lie. Why do you lie to your people? <inaudible> I
<inaudible> with communicating with the CCOG. I am a member of the
CCOG. I attended the last meeting, that issue came up. We have not met
with you. Why do you lie and say that you met with the CCOG when
the CCOG can tell you out rightly that we did not meet with you? Why?
Why do you lie? Why do you lie like the way you lied in Agana Heights
when the people asked you why did the museum close? And you said
Monsignor Benavente closed it when Monsignor Benavente had already
left the Cathedral. Monsignor Quitugua was the Rector there. And yet
you told the people of Agana Heights that Monsignor closed it. Why do
you lie Archbishop? Why?

ARCHBISHOP
(01:04:17)

Because he had it put in the bulletin to be read that the museum was
closed I had nothing I didnt see the bulletin until Sunday morning.

PARISHIONER
(01:04:28)

Archbishop, whatever your priests say you are the leader, you are the
shepherd, you take full responsibility and that what is being called
against you. You do not take responsibility for your actions. You are not
transparent with your people. You are lying to them, Bishop. You lie to
them. Just like you lied that you met with us when you did not.

ARCHBISHOP
(01:04:53)

I did not say that I met with them. I said that the Ad Hoc Committee is
organizing to try and have this meeting and we are in the process of
trying to meet.

PARISHIONER
(01:05:12)

Hi, Archbishop, sorry for that concoction <inaudible> Last week, this
group here, almost everybody here, was in front of the Chancery. Fr.
Mike, Im a part of his Finance Council, and when something happens
in the finance area, he calls his finance group together. When we got
that letter we were under the impression that only he was being
summoned. So we were there to tell you what is happening in our
church. We were sitting in your office, the finance council, and when
you walked out, the perception that you gave us was everybody in there
was Neo. Nothing from our side. What we want to do is have this
communication with you so that our faith can grow. And when Fr. Mike
was not the only one, there were other priests there, it wasnt Fr. Mike
that told me this, but somebody told me that Mr. Claros said that we
were Protestant.

DEACON LARRY

No, I never said no such thing on that day.

(01:36:35)
Audience gets upset
Bring it out, bring it out, bring out the recording!
PARISHIONER
(01:06:52)

This is the perception that were getting from the Neo group. When you
come out and <inaudible> the Neo group, the Neo people, we dont
have representation as to what we want to do in our church. <inaudible>
Is because you dont want to send any of the local boys to the
priesthood. You want to make it all, seems like, the perception again is
you want to make all our churchesSanta Rita for example, what they
did there they took the Santa Maria down they hid it from the people.
Why is that happening? Why is that when we see you, we see them?
They stand by you all the time. Why dont you stand by us? And listen
to us to because we are your followers. [Applause among audience].

PARISHIONER
(01:08:03)

Archbishop, I understand your dilemma, <inaudible>. I think that a lot

of it has to do with the way the people who are speaking on your behalf,
those people who are supposed to be counseling you, or advising you,
you need to change them and put a good representation of us traditional
Catholics as well as the Neo community. Because its fine if being a part
of the Neo community is going to help you, thats wonderful, its good.
However way <inaudible> But you have to have these people advising
you the right way. And Im not saying our way is the right way. But you
have to have an open mind to them. <inaudible> But the way we see it,
a lot of us, the people you have advising you are advising you telling
you the wrong things, they are not giving you the full picture of what is
out there. They are showing you things that you want to see. They are
giving you letters, writing letters for you to sign and of course you trust
that what they are doing and writing is right. And so you are signing
these things and in the end you are a part of that and you are answerable
to what you put your name on. So if you have the right people advising
you, we wont be where we are at now. Thank you.

ARCHBISHOP
(01:09:43)

Yeah, Im glad to take you advice and Ill see, okay?

PARISHIONER
(01:09:48)

Good evening, Archbishop, Im <inaudible>. Last week when we went

to the Chancery for prayers, to pray and to show support for Pale Mike,
I heard, and there are several of us also that heard, that we were called
Protestants and we werent there to protest, we were there for prayers
and hope for peace. But, yes, this group that you see here right now are
the same group that was there that day. So, why were we called
Protestants? Because as far as I know, were not Protestants. So thats
my question, Archbishop, why were we called Protestants?

ARCHBISHOP
(01:10:42)

See I dont know, I did not make that statement. I thanked you all, I
think, from what I heard you were there to try to support Pale Mike

because you thought that he might be ousted, but no it has nothing to do

with that. Every pastor and administrator had been called in just to talk
about, yes the annual archdiocesan collection, but also the other things
we wanted to share with the <inaudible> that helped organize with the
various things we had to do to celebrate the jubilees. So that was a full
discussion that lasted two hours for each of them. There were small
groups of pastors that were called but he was not the only one that was
called in because we had three days, Monday morning afternoon,
Tuesday morning afternoon, and Friday morning afternoon.
PARISHIONER
(01:11:35)

Archbishop, as you can see from all the people gathered here we are
<inaudible> traditional Roman Catholic community and we want to be
reassured someone is not coming in sometime, somewhere in the future
and try to turn us into a Neo community which we are not at this point.
Are we going to have some input regarding this or are we just going to
open up the Umatuna one day and find out someone is being assigned to
us who is Neo.

ARCHBISHOP
(01:12:14)

No, I can assure you Pale Mike is not going anywhere for now anyway,
okay?
Audience applause

PARISHIONER
(01:12:36)

That was question number 3, Archbishop. (laughter) The parish would

like to know if Pale Mike, being it so close to month of July (laughter)
will continue his mission here at Immaculate Heart of Mary.

ARCHBISHOP
(01:12:48)

Yeah, from what Ive heard is that this parish has come alive, hes
helping me even in the archdiocese so theres nowhere to go.

PARISHIONER
(01:13:08)

Archbishop, we have the RMS seminary up in Yona. From reading and

listening to people, is it true that these lay people come to Guam and
determine which seminarians become priests? Why arent you the one
choosing?

ARCHBISHOP
(01:13:36)

Sorry?

PARISHIONER
(01:13:17)

Why arent you the one choosing? Why are outsider lay people
choosing in the seminary?

ARCHBISHOP
(01:13:44)

They are examined and recommended just as in any seminary that

professes there, they examine the suitors and then they recommend if
they be advanced to the priesthood if they are ready. If they are not
ready then <inaudible>

PARISHIONER
(01:13:57)

I guess <inaudible> because Im a traditional Catholic and if somebody

wants to tell me that Im going to be a priest, I think it should be another
priest, or a Pope, or a Bishop, not a lay person. I find that hard to believe
that somebody who is an ordinary person is studying our church here in
Guam that so and so ready to be a priest.

ARCHBISHOP
(01:14:23)

Ultimately its also the Rector and the Vice Rector that recommends the
person whos ready for the priesthood.

PARISHIONER
(01:14:46)

Are you beholden, church wise, to any other person other than the Pope
and his Church? Are you not beholden to other <inaudible> advisors
between the Pope and Kiko Arguello? Or is your <inaudible> solely,
exclusively to the Pope not with any other person? Tell us the truth,
please.

ARCHBISHOP
(01:15:22)

Yeah I listen to the Pope. Honestly, I listen to the Pope. He tells me

what Im doing here is fine with him. So if and when he feels that what
Im doing here is not fine with him then he makes that decision.

PARISHIONER
(01:15:41)

My question is: are you beholden to any other authority other than the
Pope in terms of running this archdiocese?

ARCHBISHOP
(01:15:55)

No, Im not really, I listen to the charism and if the charism works, fine.
If the charism doesnt work then thats fine too.

DEACON LARRY
(01:16:35)

Another question in regards to the Archbishop, because today someone

said that I called someone a Protestant or a group of people Protestants
and Im putting two and two together <inaudible> Well anyways, what I
want to ask, is to those people, especially you two, where then did I say
these things? Because when I left the Archbishops office to come out
and see you guys, I said no such thing. I want you to tell me and if you
recorded it, show me where. Because if I dont clarify this thing, its
going to go wild like everything else that is going on in this archdiocese.

PARISHIONER
(01:17:23)

My answer to your question: Pale Mike.

FATHER MIKE
(01:17:34)

On that evening, Deacon Larry did claim that the people outside were
considered protestors because they were not praying, they were
protesting. And you did say that and you even had an argument with me
<inaudible> said Are you seriously going to tell me Deacon Larry? Im
going to go out there and tell these people that. And you said, Dont
put words in my mouth. Remember that?

DEACON LARRY
(01:17:58)

Those people out there are protesting so it came out that I told them they
were Protestants?

FATHER MIKE
(01:18:06)

That you considered them not to be praying but that they were
protesting.

DEACON LARRY
(01:18:12)

Okay. Hang on because obviously I offended some people and let me

clarify something to everyone here. Okay? This is what happens when
people twist words around. Hang on. My turn to talk. You sit down.
Audience gets upset

PARISHIONER
(01:18:36)

Get out! This our parish!

PARISHIONER
(01:18:51)

Deacon, I knew you, I knew him since way back when and Ive never
seen him say or act that way or point fingers. Why is he acting like that?
Bishop, were not here to cause a war or to cause a battle. You have my
phone number. Call me and tell me how we can rectify this.

PARISHIONER
(01:19:22)

We need to fix this. This is not the way to fix this, Im sorry.

DEACON LARRY
(01:19:30)

Forgive me, I ask of your forgiveness. But it goes to show how things
can be twisted around left and right. So, I guess its showing where
really the feelings are, including Pale Im sorry you took it that way but
protesting and calling someone a Protestant is very different in my book.

PARISHIONER
(01:20:06)

Why did you say it?

DEACON LARRY
(01:20:09)

Protesting? Why did I say protesting?

PARISHIONER
(01:20:18)

I would like to know when the Rosary is protesting or the Divine Mercy.

PARISHIONER
(01:20:25)

My understanding is that we went there, I went there personally, to pray.

To help Pale Mike successfully answer all the questions to the
Archbishop. Yes, we have that fear that he may be removed but our
intention was to pray for him that he will be successful in answering the
Archbishop.

DEACON LARRY
(01:20:56)

Again, if you allow me to apologize because I really think that it was

taken out of context. I really think so. For my friends who insinuate that
I was saying this about some group of people being Protestants and
obviously it ticked a lot of people, people who I thought were friends
but are obviously not. You know, a lot of people in here are very
disrespectful. See? Here it goes, explaining the disrespectfulness. Joe,
very disrespectful. I dont appreciate anyone calling the Archbishop,
especially by his office, a liar. You lie, Archbishop, you lie. So it means
that hes lying? Joe, you know better. You were a priest at one time.

PARISHIONER
(01:22:14)

Larry, <inaudible> Because he cannot argue the argument, you going to

argue the arguer? <inaudible> I am calling the person who told the lie a
liar. I am saying why did you lie to us with the intention of deceiving?
<inaudible>

DEACON LARRY
(01:23:09)

I apologize to everyone who took it very offensively by being called a

Protestant. Please accept my apology. Really I thought otherwise with
Pale Mike in saying these things that lead you to think that I said you
were Protestants. But when someone goes against the Church, be it that
he is a Bishop or not (audience erupts) The Bishop has been chosen
by the Pope to become the leader of this diocese.

PARISHIONER

The Bishop is human like you and I. He is human, he is prone to make

(01:23:56)

mistakes. So let us accept that. He is a sinner, I am a sinner, he is a

sinner, everybody here is a sinner. He is human, he is subjective to
influence and that is why we are here because he is neglecting 99% of
his flock. Archbishop, I have a lot of respect for you. <inaudible> I
supported you, I asked some of our elderly priests, noble priests,
whether what Im doing and what you are doing is the right course of
action. And they said yes. I have talked to the mercy sisters who are
elderly and they said yes, we have got to do something. So that
energized me but I dont feel comfortable in this environment because
we love you Archbishop, you have just been influenced. Im sorry but
we need your support.

DEACON ITOY?
(01:25:51)

<inaudible> Pertaining to forgiving each other, speaking on behalf of

the Chuukese people

PARISHIONER
(01:27:44)

<inaudible> We think the Archbishop should have a plan to unite the

Neo and the non-Neo because Im hearing a lot of the non-Neo calling
out for unity. And I agree. There should be a plan to unite the Neo and
the non-Neo because theres a division <inaudible> in reality there is
Neo and the non-Neo. Im non-Neo and I really want to see the church
united. <inaudible> A year later, were divided again. Were in that
division right now. I want to see a plan to unite the Neo and the nonNeo so that we can be one church.

PARISHIONER
(01:28:58)

Tony, I <inaudible> because many of what was said didnt come clear. I
am a member of the CCOG <inaudible> The Church is not Anthony
Sablan Apuron, the Church is the People of God. <inaudible> Tony, I
agree with you that we should <inaudible> but until such time the
theology, and the worship, and the practice of the Neo conforms to the
rest of the Catholic Church <inaudible> If they dont believe in the
Mass of Sacrifice then <inaudible> who told us that the Holy Sacrifice
of the Mass is there. Unless the Neo accepts the fact that Christ is not a
sinner, we will never unite. Unless the Neo <inaudible> and the
Archbishop knows this, <inaudible> Ive been a Capuchin just like you
and Ive been a priest just like you. And I know that humility is
<inaudible> that the religion of the Neo is different than the Holy,
Roman, Catholic, Apostolic church. If you can find a solution to get
them to comply with what the church teaches, Tony, I agree with you.
Because there are a lot of people in the Neo <inaudible> that are perfect
Christians and Catholics but unfortunately their minds have been
twisted and they think that their religion is right. Just like any Jehovahs
Witness would think that their religion is right, just like a Baptist thinks
their religion is right. Until such time <inaudible> we agree on faith,
morals, and doctrine <inaudible>. Archbishop, <inaudible>.

PARISHIONER
(01:32:05)

Can you Im just oblivious to this Neo mass but is there going to be
such a big impact on the community if they do follow the way
traditional Catholics have communion, something that small. Is it such a

big thing? <inaudible> [Its kind of disrespectful sitting around

receiving the body and blood of Christ, you should be on your knees.]
PARISHIONER
(01:33:05)

I believe that the Neo Community have their own faith. I believe that
were all good in our hearts, were all good people. Theyre not bad,
were not bad. If there is a chance that we can co-exist, where there can
be some equality in making decisions for Neos and non-Neos. If theres
some equality there where you can have in your heart to know that
favoring one side over the other is causing some division. I humbly ask
Archbishop is that you can consider opening you heart and your mind
and let us co-exist and let us fill our faith so that we can all grow and we
can all grow together as one. I feel that it is possible to do that but
through you being our shepherd you are the key to this. Thank you.

PARISHIONER
(01:34:37)

The Archbishop has been up since two-oclock this morning. I can see
the wear and tear. I am only twenty years younger than him, Im
kidding, were about the same age. I can feel it. I was there this morning
for morning prayer. But, Arch, our people are crying out for you. Our
peopleIve never been invited to a Neocatechumenal, whatever its
called, and Im sorry if I was invited then I did not attend. But when we
make a change on the creed for the traditional Catholic Mass we did not
practice one full year before it was actually implemented. The fear for a
lot of us here as Catholics is that we will convert to this
Neocatechumenal Way. I dont think any of us are prepared for that. I
think we are reaching out to you, our shepherd, to reassure us as you
reassured us this evening that Pale Mike will remain with us. We know
Pale Adrian and Msgr. James [David] have a great deal to say about
Pale Mikes destiny because weve seen it in the past, weve seen what
happened to Msgr. James and Fr. Paul. Those are two very, very
wonderful priests. They know their faith, they let us know the faith, and
they teach us the faith and we are very pleased with that. We just miss
you as our shepherd guiding our flock. And so we ask that, first of all,
you have a great time here at Immaculate Heart of Mary. Secondly, that
we have culminated to you the very best we could. And finally, we hope
you go away with the message that we are One, Holy, Catholic, and
Apostolic Church and that we are a part of your church and you are our
shepherd. So with that, let us give Archbishop Apuron a big round of
applause from the Immaculate Heart of Mary. We ask for reconciliation
if we have hurt your feelings or hurt you in any way this evening and we
ask that you continue to pray for us as a parish.

FATHER MIKE
(01:37:25)

Thank you, everyone, tonight has been an honor for all of us including
the Archbishop especially. But I want to thank all of you <inaudible>
your presence here certainly is appreciated and of course apologies for
things taken out of context, being spoken, but again the goal is to try to
mend, and heal, and hopefully reconcile, and forgive. And if we can
come to that point then thats wonderful. I pray for the Archbishop

everyday, he is a very key person to this whole situation. He knows that,

he realizes that, hes only human and hes limited as well as many of us
are limited. But he is also the appointed one here, he is our shepherd.
And we will trust in God and in Gods will, whatever it may be as he
wills for the Archbishop and our church here that we will still become
obedient, respectful, as much as we can. And with that I ask the
Archbishop pray unto us and give us the blessing of our God.
ARCHBISHOP
(01:38:33)

Thank you all for being here. Continue to pray, please, for reconciliation
and <inaudible> CCOG <inaudible> representatives <inaudible>
[Prayer]