ACONVERSATIONWITHDAVIDBOHM

CopyrightNADA1998
ThefollowingexchangeofideastookplaceinDavidBohm'sofficeattheUniversity
ofLondon,U.K.onFebruary26,1987.TakingpartwereDavidBohm,E.T.Nadaand
ColeenRowe.Someoftheinsightsaretrulyunique,andhaveneverbeforebeen
published.TheconversationbeganwithadiscussionofthedialoguebetweenDavid
BohmandJ.KrishnamurtiinthebookTheEndingOfTime.Thespecificpointthat
wasbeingaddressedwastheideaofthe"ground"andwhatKrishnamurtihadmeant
byit.
E:....Nothingthatfromwhichallthingsspring.Notthesubstanceortheenergyout
ofwhicheverythingelsespringsImeanthegrounditselforthisnothingisactually
nothing.Nomatterwhatyoudoordon'tdo,youareneverseparatefromit.Inother
words,youhavenoplacetofallfromorriseto,nomatterhowyouevolveordon't
evolve.Andit'snotanegationofanythingthatisdone,butatthesametime,itdoesn't
requireanymaintenanceeither.
D.B.:Idon'tknowifKrishnamurtiwouldsaythatitdoes.Imean,Idon'tknow
exactlywhat'ssaidthere,buthehasthisnotionoftheemptinessandthenbeyondthat
thegroundcallitthebeginningandendofall,butthatgroundeffortcannotdepend
onanything....
E:WellIdon'tthinkso,becausethisgroundornothingasIunderstandit,this
ordinaryrealityactuallyisthegroundaswell.
D.B.:Wellitis,butitdependsonthewayyoulook.Itcertainlyisthegroundorisof
theground,butKrishnamurtihasthenotionortheideaof"theperception"thatthere
isanimmensegroundfarbeyondwhatyouwouldordinarilyexperience,whichdoes
notbelongtotheindividualthisiswhatheissaying.
E:That'snotwhatI'mtalkingabout.Iunderstandwhatyou'resaying,butthat'snot
whatI'mtalkingabout.Yes,thereisthatpossibilityofbeingconsciousbeyondall
possibilitiesthatwehaveanycapabilityforbeingconsciousasnow.However,evenif
youwentthroughaninfinitelyinfiniteseriesoftransmutationsandtransformations
intothemostsubtle,sublimeandunimaginablerealmsofbeingconscious,itwould
neverinanywaychangewhatnothingis.Inotherwords,ifyouwereconsciousasa
rockandifyouwereconsciousasthemostsupremewhatwewouldconsiderthe
GodofallgodsitwouldmakenodifferenceintermsofwhatIamreferringtoas
nothing.Thatgroundisnothing.It'snotjustdefining.Youcandefineitifyouwish,
andyoucanevolvebeingasfarasyouwish,andyoucanbecomemoreandmore
infinitelyconsciousasyougo,butitwillnotinanysensemakeadifferencetowhat
nothingis.Nothinghereisasnothingwilleverbeanywhereoranyhow.That'swhat
I'mtryingtosay...it'skindoflongwinded,butittakesallthosewordstogetafixon
"it".So,withregardtowhatKrishnamurtiwassayingattheendofthebook,hewas

statingthat"thisuniversalandthisparticular"werewhatconstitutedordinarylife.
However,thegroundwassomehowbeyonditandthereforethesolutionforordinary
lifewasnotwithinordinarylife...Idisagreewiththat.
D.B.:Yeah,wellthatiswhathesaid.
E:Idisagreetotallywiththisideathatthereissomething"otherthan"...
D.B.:ThenyoujustplaindisagreewithKrishnamurti,maybebecauseheemphasizes
thisotherness.
E:Wellperhapshewouldhavegonefurther,Idon'tknow.
D.B.:Iknowhehasotherbookswherehebringsitout,wherehehasamoremystical,
morepoeticwayofputtingit.
E:Butthisviewstillproducesadifferentiationbetweenwhatisultimateandwhatis
ordinary.
D.B.:Yes,hemaytendtodothat.Ithinkhefeelsthatwithrelationtothe"ordinary",
therewouldbenodifferentiationifyourperceptionwereclear,orstartingfromthe
ultimatebutsincetheperceptiongenerallydoesn'tstartfromthat,then,Ithinkhe's
sayingthatmosthumanperceptionisillusion,orit'sadreamyouseeit'snotreally
seeinganything.That'sthesortofthingIthinkhewouldsay.
E:Thenhestilldefeatsthepurposethathewastryingtoestablishintryingtoend
time,becausebyproducingorinterjectingatypeofprocesswherethisobscured
perceptionisnotabletoseetheultimate,itproducesatransitionregionwhereyougo
from"this"to"that".
D.B.:Hesaysthatseeingitasatransitionistheresultofbeinginobscured
perception.
E:WellevenifKrishnamurtididn'thaveobscuredvision,oratleastnotasobscured
asthepeoplethathewasabletoperceivewere,itstillseemsthatsuchaviewcreates
thisartificialseparationbetweenthe"ultimate"andtheultimate,becauseinreality
thereisnoseparation.The"ultimate"istheobscuration.
D.B.:Well,hesaysthere'snottwo...Healsosaysthatbetweentheonewhoseesand
theonewhodoesn't,therewasreallynoseparationfortheonewhoseesbuttheone
whodoesn'tsee,seestheseparationbecauseofthat"obscuredperception".Butin
somewayyoumustexplaintakeintoaccountthefactthatpeoplegenerallyseethis
separation.
E:O.K.Iagreewiththat.But....
D.B.:Sowhyistherethisperceivedseparationifthereisn't?
E:That'snoindicationofultimatelessness.
D.B.:Ithinkyoumightbeinagreementwithhimifyouweretopursuethematter.
E:Well,unfortunatelyIthinkthathe'scheckedout....
D.B.:Yes,Iknow,butI'msayingthatsinceyoucan'tdothat,youcanonlysurmise.
E:Yeah.
D.B.:Sothat'smyguess.Butthereallyinterestingquestionis,ifthereisno
separationthenwhyisitsogenerallyagreedthatthereisone?AndI'mnotsure
Krishnamurtimadethatverycleareither.
E:Howareyouworkingonthatquestion?

D.B.:Well,Ithinkthishastodowithourwholecultureandtheeffectonthewaythe
brainoperates,andsoon.Wecouldgointoitbutthatwouldtakeabitofadiscussion,
yousee.
E:Well,I'mopenforanysuchdiscussion.

D.B.:Well,it'saquestionthatinterestsme.Ithinkit'simportanttotrytounderstand
it.Iwouldsayfirstofallthatthequestionofseparationornonseparationisarelative
one.Insomecontextsthequestionofseparationisavalidwayofthinking,sayingthat
Iamdifferentfromthedesk.Ihaveindependenceofmovement.WhatIthinkdoesn't
affectthedesksignificantly,andthisdoesn'tbothermythinkingsignificantly,andso
on.Thereisacertainrelativeseparationwhichwehavetobeginfrom.Thepointis
thatwecansymbolisethatbythenotionofaboundary.Andtheboundarycanbea
relativeboundary,liketheskinisaboundaryandyeteverythingcrossesit.Andthus
boundariescanbemoved,yousee.Oneoftheillusionswegetisbasedonthe
assumptionthattheseboundariesareabsolute.Forexamplebetweennations,people
taketheviewthattheseboundariesareabsoluteandthereforebythinkingthatway,
theycreateenoughfactstomakeitlookapparentlyverifiable,confirmable,right?
E:Coulditbethattheverynatureofsuchthinkingistobediscriminating?Inother
words,youhavetodiscriminate.
D.B.:Butalsoit'stheretounite.Yousee,there'sapointoffalseness....The
discriminationandunificationprocessgoeswrong.Everydiscriminationisalsoa
unification.They'rebothtogether.Whenyoudiscriminatetwonationsyou'redoing
itintheinterestofaddingthenation.Thefactis,thenationisnotasunitedasyou
thinkitisanditisnotasdiscriminatedasyouthinkitis.Youaremakingafalse
perceptionofsimilarityanddifference.
E:O.K.somaybewhatisreallyhappeningthenisnotsomuchdiscriminationand
unificationbutclarificationofwhatitisthatyouareactuallyconfronting?
D.B.:Yes,thepointiswemayusetheconceptofseparationandtheconceptof
unity,butithastobeveryopenandflexibleaccordingtothefactthatyouare
confronting.Youcangetstuckoncertainwaysofdividingandunitingwhichyou
thenimposeonreality,andbyimposingityouapparentlyproveitso.Butinfact
you'regettingdeeperanddeeperintoillusion.
E:Well,theideaabout"realityandillusion"itselfisthatsortofdiscrimination.
Unfortunately,we'reusingalanguagethatistotallybasedondiscriminationwhich

doesn'treallyexist.
D.B.:Butalsoonuniting.Thelanguageisbasedonjoininganddisjoining,yousee.
Thatis,it'saperfectlygoodlanguageifwecoulduseitproperly.Ithastobeusedas
anartisticformandnotasarigidtoolwhichissupposedtoreflectrealityexactly
reflectwhatIsexactly.It'slikethenotesinmusic.Theylookquiteseparate,butwhen
they'replayed,they'renotseparate.That'sthesamesortofthing.
E:Theyallspringfromoneanother.
D.B.:Yes.Theyflowintoeachotherandtheirmeaningistogether.Sonow,you
wouldn'tbeabletohavemusic,inourpresentformanyway,ifwedidn'thavesome
sortofdistinctionofnotes.Ifwedidn'tdistinguishwords,wewouldn'tbeabletotalk.
Ontheotherhand,ourattitudetothatdistinctionandtheunificationthatgoeswith
itisthecrucialissue.Whatdoesitmean?Now,Isayitdoesn'tmeanexactlywhatit
saysorseemstosay,butit'sreallyameaningthatariseswhichiswhole.
E:Meaningitselfatleastcarriesyouintotherealmofintuitingthewhole?
D.B.:Yeah.It'sawholewhichit'sboundariesarenot....itsortofshadesoffintoa
largerwhole.Butwhateveryou'retalkingaboutwillbeacertaincontext.Seeagain,
youcanmakethedistinctionoftextandcontext,asimilaridea.Textmeans"what's
woven",inLatin,andcontextistogetherwithit.Wheneveryoureadthetext,it's
alwaysinthecontext.Butthecontextisalsoatextwhichisinanothercontext.So
youneverfinishwiththat,hey?
E:Soinotherwords,what'sreallygeneratingallofwhatyou'redescribingisthe
middlepointtext,contextandmeaning.
D.B.:Yeah.
E:Youhavetohavemeaninginordertogeneratealltheothers....
D.B.:Themeaningisthatonlythetextandthecontextcanmakemeaning,right?
E:Right.
D.B.:Whereveryouareandnomatterwhatyou'resaying,there'satextandacontext.
It'slikethehorizonyouneverreachit.Youwalkandwalkandwalkandthere'sstill
alwaysthehorizon.
E:Until....Youdon'tnecessarilyreachthehorizon,butyoucantranscendaparticular
horizonjustbyblastingoff,forinstance.
D.B.:Yes,butwhenweareinlanguagewearegoingtohavethishorizon.Thatis,
usinglanguagewehaveatextandacontext.
E:That'swhatIwantedtogetto.WhatIintuitfromyourworkssofaristhatyouare
tryingtopresentalanguagethatatleastapproachesifitdoesn'treachthehorizonit
getsalittlebitclosertothehorizon.Itseemstomeyou'retryingtoformulatea
particulartypeoflanguagewherebywemightbeabletoachievethehorizoninsome
way?
D.B.:Well,Idon'tknow.Ithinkwehavetounderstandwhatthehorizonis.Itwon't
beachieved....Ithinkthatthroughtalkingwe'llhaveahorizonwithatextanda
context.Nowwemayexpandthehorizonbygoingtoahigheraltitudeweinclude
more.Butbyunderstandingthenatureofthehorizonweavoidtheillusionthatwe
havereachedit.Thetroublewiththecurrentwayofusinglanguageisthatpeopleare

tacitlyassumingthatithasreachedthehorizon.They'resaying"Weknowthetruth.
Whatwearesayingistrueregardlessofcontext."
E:Isee,O.K.Inalargercontextwhatyouconsidertobetruenowwouldn'tbetrue.
D.B.:Well,itwouldbeonlypartial.Itwouldbeanapproximation.
E:Yes,yes.Thisiswhenyouaretalkingabouttheimplicateorder.
D.B.:Yeah.Sopeopleeithersaywehavereachedthehorizonorwewillshortlyreach
it.SomebodylikeStephenHawkingsaysthatphysicswillsoonmakethefundamental
discoveriesofthefourbasicforcesandwhatnotandthenwewillhavethefinal
theory.Andfromthenonthere'llbethefinalequationsafterwhichatheoretical
physicistcanbereplacedbycomputers.
E:Right.Inthisuniversemaybe.
D.B.:WellIthinkthatiftheyevermanagetodothat,theywillfindahorizonbeyond
whichotherthingsareunknown.
E:Right.They'llonlyhavepoppedtheirheadsoverthehill.
D.B.:Theymaytalkaboutthis"firstmomentoftheuniverse",butahorizonbeyond
thatwillalwaysshowup.
E:Whichmeansthatinasense,it'sthefunctionofthemindtoproduceendless
versionsofwhateverthemindis.That'swhatyou'retalkingaboutisn'tit?Stephen
Hawking's"mind"isbasicallytryingtograspthisultimate,andpackageit.The
troublewiththatapproachisthatitmightbefineforStephenHawking,butifitinany
wayenslavestherestoftheuniverse,insteadofbecomingaladderitbecomesthethe
barsofajail...
D.B.:Yeah.Wellitdoestendtodothat.
E:AndIfindthatyourworkverysubtlydoesn'tgoforthat.Onedoesn'ttendtofind
thatfixityinyourwork.
D.B.:WellIthinkanythingthatcanbeputinlanguageisgoingtohavethatform,at
leastasfarasIunderstandlanguagetoday.Tounderstandthatwillfreeusfromsome
ofthesethingsyoujusttalkedabout.
E:Yeah,butfreeusfromwhat?Thisisit.Whydoweneedtobefree?
D.B.:Firstofallit'sgoingtomaketroublejustfromthesheerwishnottogetinto
unnecessarytrouble.Inthemostelementaryway,ifwethinkthat,"we'regoingtofix
nations,we'regoingtofixideologies,we'regoingtofixourpresentapproachto
technologyandallsortsofthings"....andinsteadit'sleadingontodisaster,right?
That'spointA.
E:Itmightdotheuniversesomegoodiftherewereadisasterhere.
D.B.:Well,youcouldsayfromtheearth'spointofview,wehavegonetoofar.
There'stheviewoftheGaiahypothesiswhichtakestheearthasabeing,right?From
thatviewonecouldsaythatmaybetheearthhasevolvednewviruseslikeAIDStotry
tocontrolthishumancancerwhichhasgrown.
E:Iwouldn'tbesurprised.
D.B.:Butfromourview,wesayweshouldn'tgetintothatsituation,wedon'tbecome
acancer.
E:Wellthisisit.Maybethat'swhatAidsisreallymeanttodo.It'smeanttowakeus

up.
D.B.:Yes,orelsetorestrictourgrowthifwedon'twakeup.
E:Yes.Onewayortheother.
D.B.:Itwilldothat,probably,unlesspeoplefindavaccine,butthensomethingelse
mayhappen,right?
E:Yeah,Iquiteagreewithyouinthatcontext.AtleastIcanseetheplateauof
reasoningthatthatmaycomefromthathumanbeingsaredefinitelynottheendallof
everythingastheyhaveimagined.Althoughperhapsthegrounditselfisnomoreand
nolessahumanbeingthananyofthemostevolvedpossibilitieseither.
D.B.:Wellyes,that'salltherebutthereareothercreatureswhoarefairlyintelligent,
likethekillerwhaleandthedolphin.Andeventhechimpanzeeshowsquiteabitof
"human"characteristics.Sothere'snoreasonwhysomeotherformofintelligence
couldn'tevolve.
E:Iwouldn'tdoubtit.Iwouldn'tdoubtthatithasn't.
C:Beforeyouleavethesubject,doesitseemtoyouthatlanguageinthewaythatit's
currentlyusedwiththistextandcontextisadirectresultofourneurology?
D.B.:Well,itmightbe.Ican'tsayforsure.Ithinkit'saneffectthatlanguagemust
makeanabstraction.Nowourneurologyprobablydoesthattooabstractfroma
foregroundandabackground.
C:Yeah,youseeitallthetimewhenyouexaminelimbicsystemsandthingslike
that.
E:Isthereaformoflanguagethatdoesn'thavethenecessitytodothat?
D.B.:Wellyouseethat'swhatIwastryingtoproposeandexploreintherheomodein
mybook,WholenessAndTheImplicateOrder.
E:Yes,youtookittoacertainpoint.
D.B.:Butyoucan'treallyexplorethisunlessotherpeoplewouldcomein,andthen
you'dreallyhavetoworkatitseriously.Inanycase,Ididn'tthinkitwouldbeanyuse
todevelopanotherkindoflanguagewhichwouldonlybeanotherfragment.
E:AnotherEsperanto?
D.B.:Yeah.Ididn'tthinkitwasofanyhelptodothat.ButIwasproposingthat
there'saqualitythebodyhascalled"propioception"selfperceptionofitsown
movement.Youcantellithasmovedwithouthavingtoseparatetheobserverandthe
observed,withoutthinkingandsoon.IknowimmediatelythatImovedmyhand,
whereasifthiscupsuddenlyjumpedup,Iwouldknowitwasnotme.IfIpushit,I
knowit'sme.
E:Iagreewithyoutoacertainextent.
D.B.:Why?
E:Ionlyagreewiththatparticularqualitythatyouarespeakingofafteryou've
programmedyourperceptionstoacertaindegreeofcomplexity.Iwouldsaythata
newbornbabyorahumanchildatacertainstageofconsciousness...
D.B.:Wellithasn'trefineditsperceptionssufficiently.
E:Orconstrictedthem.
D.B.:I'msayingthatbeforeithasthoughtoftheselfandtheother,thenitdoesn't

raisethequestion.Butitmaythenmakemovementswhicharenotinharmonywith
itsfunction.
E:Canwecomebackjustaminute?
D.B.:Yeah.
E:Youweretalkingaboutthesituationbeforeabeinghasformulatedtheideaofthe
"self"andthe"other".
D.B.:Yes.It'salwaysimplicit,inthesensethatitwon'tbeconsciousbutithasto
incorporatesomeoftheenvironmenttosurvive.
E:Butcoulditbethatthispointistheverypointatwhichhumanbeingshavetaken
thesocalled"wrongturn"thatyouwerediscussingwithJ.Krishnamurti?Coulditbe
thatpointwheretheideaof"self"and"other"appearswhichhasbeentheturning
point,orthepointofdivergenceontothetrackwhichhumansnowfind
themselves?
D.B.:Ithinktheconfusionwhichoccurredatthatpointwasneithergoodnorbad.On
onesideitwasgoodandontheothersideitwasbad.Itenabledhumanbeingstodoa
greatmanythingstheycouldneverhavedone.
E:Arethoseinanywayrelevanttoreality?
D.B.:Theymaybe.It'srelevanttodoallsortsofthingslikemakingahealthierlife.
YoucouldsaywecouldsitinthejungleandgoonandhavetheStoneAge,andthat
wouldbepossible.ButIdon'tthinkthehumanbrainwouldstaythereindefinitely.I
thinkitdoesmove.Thechimpanzee,forexample.JaneGoodallhaslivedamongthem
andwatchedthemthey'veacceptedher.Shegaveaninterestingstorythateverynow
andthensomeofthedominantmaleswithafewfemaleswouldconceiveadislikefor
thechimpanzeesontheothersideofthemountain.Theywouldgoaroundandbeat
themup,killthem,drinktheirbloodandeatthem,andhaveagreattimedoingit!
Likestreetgangsmightdo.
E:Yeah,likealmostanylargecity,nowadays.
D.B.:Therewasalsothecaseofthefemalechimpanzeethatdevelopedatastefor
babychimpanzeesandwouldstarteatingthem.
E:Isawthesameprogram,butmayIsuggestsomething?
D.B.:Yeah.
E:I'venoticedthisphenomenonalso.Manypeopleseemtothinkthattheseactions
aresomehowindicativeofsomethingmeaningfulintermsofchimpanzeesthat
they'reactuallytakingon"human"traits.ButIwouldsuggestthatiftherewereno
humanspresent....
D.B.:Idon'tthinksheproducedthat.
E:Iftherewerenohumanspresent,wouldthosechimpanzeeshavedonethesame
thing?I'vealsoreadinNationalGeographicwheretwomalenarwhaleswerebattling
itoutandtheyaccidentallykilledthefemaleinthebattle,rightinfrontofthehuman
observer.I'msuggestingsomethingIknowthismustsoundabsurdbutIthinkthat
humanbeingspotentially,whetherthey'reconsciousofitornot,carryacertaindegree
offorce.Theirpresenceisthere,andwhentheyarepresentinacertainwaywhether
asobserversoranythingelse,theycantransmittosocalledlowerlifeformsthatare

passiveorreceptivetothem,manythingsthattheythemselvesmaynotbeconscious
of.I'mthinkingthatintermsofthehumanmind,itmayhaveamuchwiderscope
thanpresentlyunderstoodamindthatiscapableofsubmergingotherlesscapable
formsinitsimpulses.
D.B.:Idon'tmakeanargumentagainstthat.Youcomparethistoadog.Thisintense
hostilityarisesinotheranimalforms.Forexample,Iusedtotakeadogforawalkand
shegotanintensedislikeforanotherdog.Theywouldberagingandfuriouswith
eachotherandittookallmystrengthtodragheraway.NowassoonasIdraggedher
aroundthecorner,shewaspuzzledwhyamIsoexcited?yousee.Shewasshaking
andtrembling,butshecouldn'tunderstandwhy.Shestopped,becausearoundthe
cornershedidnothavethecapacitytoformtheimageoftheotherdogtoremain
angryat.Thechimpanzeehasthatcapacityandsodowe.There'snotagreat
differencebetweenus.
C:Forinstance,whenwewerelivingupintheArctic,wenoticedwhatcouldbe
calleda"contamination"fromthehumanpresence.ThedogsintheCanadianArctic
canoverwhelmyouwiththeirfriendliness.Imean,they'resobigthey'readangerfor
friendliness.IfyoumoveacrossthestraittoGreenlandwherethereisadifferent
attitudebecausethenativeshavebeenundersubjectiontotheDanishgovernmentfor
200yearsandthey'reveryhostiletotheEuropeanpresence,thosesamesleddogsare
vicioustothepointthatyoucan'tfalloffthesledbecauseyou'dbeattackedandeaten
upinstantly.
E:...Sometimes.I'msayingthatthehumancontamination,unconsciousasitmaybe,
canbeattributedtosomethingelse,butitmayalsobethatweareintroducingtoxic
pollutantsintotheotherlevelsoflifewhichthenreflectbackourown"perversions".
D.B.:Wellitmaybethat'sjustasuggestion.There'snosignthatJaneGoodallwas
transmittingthatsortofattitude.Theyseemedtotrusther....
E:Yes,butshewasconnectedtohumanlife.
D.B.:Yes,butIdon'tthinkshewasdisplayinganythingwhichwouldhave
encouragedthat.
E:Itmaynothaveanythingtodowithovertactivitybutmorewithwhat'sinthe
mind.
D.B.:Maybe,butIknowthatanimalsdofight.TheysayalsothattheKillerWhale
getsitsnamefromthefactthatitseemstokillforpleasure.Now,theKillerWhale
hassolvedmostofitsproblemsoccasionallyit'sindanger.Somehowit'sgotthis
tremendousbrainit'sbiggerthanthehumanbrainandperhapspotentiallyit'sbetter.
E:Perhapsmoredevelopedinsomeareas.
D.B.:Andprobablyinroamingtheocean,havingsolveditsproblemsitgetsbored.
Thereforeitjustkillsotheranimals,butmorethanitneedstoeat.
E:Itjustbasicallykills?
D.B.:Yeah.That'swhyit'scalledthename.TheOrcaWhaleisitsLatinname.When
theytraintheminthedophinariums,they'reveryfriendly.Amancanputhishead
rightinthewhale'smouthandhecandoanything.They'reveryintelligent,more
intelligentthandolphins.Theylearntricks,notforthefish,butbecausetheyget

interestedinthetricks.
E:Degreeofdifficulty?
D.B.:Yeah.It'sthechallenge,youseebutdolphinswon'tdoitunlessyougivethem
afish.
E:Wellmaybethey'remoreintelligentafterall!Atleasttheygetfedfortheirlabor.
(laughter)
D.B.:Somebodytoldmetheyuseadifferentsortofsystemofcommunicationthan
withthedolphins.Awhaleanddolphinswerekeptindifferenttanksneareachother,
buttheKillerWhalestilllearnedthesystemofthedolphins.Ithasquiteabitbigger
brainit'sabouttwicethesizeofourown.Itsbodyisbiggertoobutstillboththe
dolphinsandthewhaleshavearemarkablemovementcapacitywherethebody
changessubtlytoschema,andit'sveryefficient.
E:Thecetaceaanddolphinshavebeenaroundforalotlongerthanhumans.
D.B.:Ithinkthatifyougetacreaturewithabrainbeyondacertainsize,thereis
thisproblemwhereinitneedssomethingtoabsorbitscreativityithastodo
something.
C:Mancertainlyisn'tinvolvedinverymanycreativeactivities.
D.B.:No,hewouldbebuthe'sgotteninvolvedinallthisconfusionwhichtakesits
place.
E:Right.Sohowaretheapparentlyfewhumanswhoknowaboutthissituationgoing
topassontheinformationeffectively?There'snowaythatindoctrinationorinitiation
intosomekindofnewimpulsewillsolvetheproblembecausethat'shappenedallthe
waythrough,andallitdoesisproducemorestructuresandgreaterfragmentation.
D.B.:Thequestioniswhyareweinthisboat?
E:Whatisthisboat?
D.B.:Well,thetroubleisthatpeoplearesomehownothappywiththesituation
they'rein.Nobodyseemstobereallysatisfiedwithinit,andthereseemstobegood
reasonnottobeifyouseethegeneralmess.
E:Butwholikesmesses?Ireallydon'tthinkthatit'sunreasonable.Idon'teventhink
thatthemessisn'texactlywhatwewant.
D.B.:It'swhatwewantbutalsowhatwedon'twant.Yousee,there'sthe
contradiction.Ifwesaywewantedit,Isayeverybody'shappy,we'vegotthemesswe
wanted.Butthey'renotbecausetheydon'twantthemess.Wewantsomethingwhich
produces'X',butunfortunatelyitproduces'Y',themessaswellbutwewouldlike
tobelievethatwecouldhave'X'withouthaving'Y'.
E:Thisiswherewegettothepointofwhoorwhatisitthatwantsanything?Isit
the"I"thatyouwerespeakingof?Isthat"I"alwaysgoingtoproducethisextra
'Y',nomatterwhatelsehappens?It'salwaysgoingtoproducesomeexcrement
withthefoodthatitmakes.It'salwaysgoingtoproducearesidue,aremainder.It's
notgoingtoproduceaperfectequilibrium.
D.B.:Yes,butthenit'sgoingtobeunhappywiththatfact.Ifitwouldjustsaythat's
thewayitis,itwouldhavenoproblem.Butsincepeopleareconstitutedastheyare,
theydon'twantthat,it'snotsatisfactory.Peoplewillnotacceptthatwearegoingto

get'Y'andjustsay"Well,we'regoingtoswiminthismessforever."
E:Notinthisparticularmessanyway.
D.B.:Wellinsomekindofmess.Thequestionis,dowehavetogoonwiththis?But
wecan'tanswerthatifwedon'tknowwhywe'redoingit.
C:Or,ifwe'reresponsibleforgeneratingit,howfar?
D.B.:Yeah.Insomesensewe'reobviouslygeneratingit,butwedon'tknowwhyand
how.
C:Yes.Peoplewilloftencuttheirresponsibilitiesfarshortoftheirdoings,and
converselytheyimaginebeingresponsibleforthingsthey'vebarelycontributedto.If
wewouldrelaxourattitudesandbewillingtoinvestigatewithaclearermindstate,
notsoobsessedonbeingright,wewouldprobablybemoreaccurateaboutwhatwe
cocreate.
D.B.:Yeahbutthat'spartoftheillusion,thatthebraingetsdisturbedbybeingmade
responsibleforthis.Itmaybeacontinuationofaninfantileattitude,butlet'sseeifI
canproposesomething.Firstofalltherehasbeenthetheoryofthethreebrainsthe
reptilian,themammalianandthenewbrain.
E:Whichis...
D.B.:Thecortex.Nowthecortexappearedrathersuddenly.Thereptilianand
mammalianbrainscameintoequilibriumwiththeirsurroundingsandweremore
orlesssuitedtothem.Thensuddenlythecortexappeared.Themammalianbrain
withitsemotionalresponserespondedtotheenvironmentanditworked,
statistically.Butnowit'ssurroundedbythenewbrain.It'sadifferentenvironment
anditdoesn'tworkbecauseofsimplereasons.Thenewbraincanproduceimages
whichareveryconvincingtotheoldbrain.Theoldbraindoesnotactuallyseethese
objectsbutthewholebodystillrespondsinawaywhichcorrespondstotheobject.
Theoldbrainknowshowtogetcorrespondinglystirredupinresponsetoalionand
itsays"run".Orsomethingniceappearsanditsays"gothere".Thenewbrain,
however,canproduceimages,whichmeansnotjustpicturesbutstirringupthe
wholesystemasiftherewerethatthingpresent.Theoldbraindoesn'tlookoutto
seewhetherit'sthereornot.Itcan't.Itjustgetsstirredup.Sothereforeitcansay
thoseimagesareirresistible.EitheritsaysIwantthemortheyfrightenmeorthey
makemeenragedorwhatever.However,thenewbrainisfunctioninginthe
environmentoftheoldbrain.Namely,alltheneurochemicalsandsooncomefrom
there.Allthedesireandalltheenergytodosomethingcomesfromthere.
E:Fromtheoldbrain.
D.B.:Fromtheoldbrain.Thenewbrainhasnoreasontodoanythingbyitself.
Therefore,whenitgetsallstirredup,it'sconfusedanditdoesn'tworkright.
E:Soyou'vegotanewbrainfunctionthatyoudon'tquiteknowhowtooperate.
C:It'snotintegrated.
D.B.:It'snotintegrated.Whentheseneurochemicalsaretoostrong,theyconfuse
thenewbrain.Let'stakeanelementarycase.Supposeacertainthingdisturbsor
frightensyou.Yourmothercomesalongandsaysdon'tworryaboutitshelullsyou
intoasenseofsecurity.Whathappensisthatthatthoughtliberatesjustassimplyas

anicesituationwoulditliberateswhatarecalledendorphinswhichcoatthenerves
thatproducepainorfear,whichthenproduceaneffectratherlikemorphine
they'renamedaftermorphine.Thenwhenthesituationsuddenlychangesoryou
thinkdifferently,theendorphinsareremoved.Eventuallyyou'rehookedonthem.
Why?Becausetheoldbraindemandsthatyouthinkagaininsuchawayasto
reproducethoseendorphinsitdemandsthisofthenewbrain.Thereforeit
demandsfalsethoughtsthatwilllullyouintoanicesenseofsecurity.
E:Nowwhoisprovidingyouwiththefalsethoughts?
D.B.:Thenewbrain.Itissimplyamachinethatprovideswhateverthoughtsthat
willsatisfywhat'sgoingonintheoldbrain.Theoldbrainmakesademand.Let'ssay
itneedsfoodfoodcomesin,itstops.Itneedsanicethoughtthatsayseverythingwill
beallright.Whenitcomesinitsays,"O.K.Itdoesn'tbothermeanymore."
E:That'stheoldbrainsystem.
D.B.:Yeah.Thenewbraingetshookeditgetshabituatedintoprovidingtheold
brainwiththethoughtsthatwilllullitintoagoodfeeling.
E:Whywouldthenewbraindothat?
D.B.:Becausethenewbrainhastodowhattheoldbrainwants,andthenthat'sthe
waythesystempresentlyworks.Thedesire,theenergy,theintentionfundamentally
comefromthespinalcolumn.Thenewbraincannotseeanyreasontodoanything.
It'ssortofananalyticalfunction....
E:OhIseewhatyou'resaying.Soyou'retalkingaboutthispart(pointingtothe
frontalloberegionofthehead.)
D.B.:Yeah,allaround.Bothrightandleft.Peoplemakeabigdistinction,butright
andleftareworkingtogether.Theleftbrainprovidesthewordstherightbrain
providestheimageswhichareunderstoodbytheoldbrain.
E:O.K.,buttherightandleftarestillpartofthenewbrainyou'retalkingabout.
D.B.:That'sright.Sothatdistinctionofrightandlefthasbeenoverdone.Thebig
importantpointisbetweentheoldandthenewbrains.Thatiswhathasn'tcome
intoharmony.
E:Sothenewbrainactuallyconstitutesorrepresentsafunctionthatshouldnotbe
workingindependently,andyetitshouldnotbeworkingundertheauspicesofthe
oldbrain.
D.B.:Norshouldtheoldbrainbeworkingundertheauspicesofthenewbrain.In
ordertosolvethat,peoplebecameawarethattheywerebeingdrivenintoabsurdities
byemotionsandthereforetheysaidletmecontrolmyemotions.Thatdoesn'twork
either.
E:Whichdrovethemintonewabsurdities,right?
D.B.:Yeah.There'snowayinwhichthenewbraincancontroltheoldbrain.
C:Ithasalltheendocrinesystemtoworkwith.
D.B.:Thenewbraincannotcontroltheoldbrain.Functionallythat'sanillusionor
delusion.Butsocietyandculturesaid,"Letthenewbraincontroltheoldbrain.
Beingvirtuousconsistsofdoingthat."
E:Andsocivilizationwasbuiltupasaresultofthat.

D.B.:Butthatonlyincreasedthechaosinbothsystems,societallyandindividually.
E:Icanseeaparallel,atleastanthropologically,wheretheoldbraincultures
wouldbeconstitutedofanddescribedastheaboriginal,thenaturalisticpeoples.
D.B.:Well,theywerepredominantlyoldbrain.Thenewbrainwastherebutit
wasn'tthatactiveyet.
E:Andthenthenewbrainweightedrepresentationswouldbethosedevelopments
inhumanswhereverycomplexcivilizationshavegrownup.Thegrowthofscience,
religionandalltherestofsuchabstractionswerederivedwithinthenewbrain
contextthatispresenthereandnow.
D.B.:Buttheveryinceptionofcivilizationwasbasedontheactionoftheoldbrain,
whichwantedthenewbraintoimprovethetoolsforgettingfood.
E:Ah.Sotheoldbrainisdealingwithsurvival.
D.B.:Yeah,butthenitalsosentsignalswhichthenewbrainpickedupassuggesting
thatitcouldhelpwithsurvival.
C:Thenewbrainismostlycomputational,isn'tit,?
D.B.:Ithasotherpossibilitiesbutithasamongthemverygreatcomputational
abilities.Itprobablyhasmanyotherabilitieswhichhavenotbeendevelopedyet.But
certainlythecomputationalabilitiesareamongtheearlieronestobedeveloped.
Therefore,thenewbrainfoundoutthatitcouldhelptheoldbraininthestrugglefor
survivalbyallsortsofmethodsimprovingtoolsandwhatnot.
E:Soyou'reactuallytalkingaboutanotherallegory,likethedivisionintotwo
sexes.Theoldbrainmightrepresentthefemaleorsocalledpassivesexthatis
receptivetotheuniverse,andthenewbrainmightrepresentthemaleortheactive
aspectthatismoreaggressive.
D.B.:Astheseactivitiesgotmoreimportant,especiallyintheareasofagriculture
andmetallurgy,themalesidebegantogetdominant.
E:Asitisnow.
D.B.:Inthehuntergatherersocietyitstillwasn't.
E::It'sobviousthatgoingfromoneextremetotheotherisinappropriateneither
approachistheanswertoabalancedwayofharmonisingwiththerestoflife.
D.B.:Thechallengetohumanityisthis:Howishumanitygoingtogetthesetwo
brainstoworktogether?
E:Idon'tthinkmosthumanbeingsevenknowthattherearethesetwobrains.
D.B.:Theydon'tknow,butthatisthechallengewhethertheyknowitornot.That's
whatIamproposing.Somenewmovementisneededwhichcannotstartineither
brain.Itmuststartinanotherway.Morecreatively.
E:Butwhatifmosthumanbeingsarejustenslavedtoasubsetofoneortheotherof
thosebrains?
D.B.:Therearetheemotionalpeopleandtheintellectualpeople,andtheyberateeach
other.Onesaysyou'resloppysentimentalistsandtheothersaysyou'rejustabstract,
cold.
E:Thenthere'salsotheactionorientedpeople,whichIsupposewouldbeanother
subset.

D.B.:Thethird.Thatwouldbethereptilianbrain.
C:Andthenthere'sthealchemiststhatsayyoushoulddosomethingcreativewith
yourendocrinesystemandtransformitandhaveawholenewunified,transmuted
being....
D.B.:ButIthinkyouwon'ttransformitunlessthenewbraingoesalong.Thenew
brainaffectstheendocrinesystemprofoundlybyitsimages.Theintellectcannotbe
leftoutofthepicture.
E:It'sobviousyouseethesameproblemIsee.Weseethemassofhumanbeings,
falselyattributingwhatevertheyaretooneoranotherofthefunctionsofthesebrains.
Weknowthatthereareactuallytwopartstotheoldbrain,whicharethemovingand
thefeelingandthentheintellect....
D.B.:Theintellectandtheartisticside.
E:Yes,yes.Theartisticsideisconnectedalsototheemotions.
D.B.:Theartisticsideisthelinkbetweenthenewbrainandtheemotions.
E:Inordertotransmute,theentirethinghastobedoneallatonce.
D.B.:That'sit.Itcannotbedoneinparts.Itcannottaketime.
E:That'sexactlytheproblemandthat'sexactlywhatwehaveencounteredincertain
esotericcommunities,thesecretschools.
D.B.:I'vereadaboutthat,yeah.
E:Anyway,atacertainpointsomeoftheunderlyingassumptionsabouthumanity
wereunacceptable,eventhoughthemethodsandtheirresultswerequitecompelling.
D.B.:Yes,Irememberonesuchwork.Ididn'tquiteagreewithit.
C:Icanseewhy.
E:Butthepointisnotthatwhatisstatedinsuchmethodologiesdoesn'tmean
anythingjustbecausewedisagreedoesn'tmeanthatthey'renotright.
D.B.:Welltheymightberightuptoapoint.
E:Exactly.ButthepointisthatIcouldn'tseethis'elect'privilegedfewalways
determiningforthemasseswhattherulesshouldbe.Theoneswho'workforgod'if
youwanttocallitthat.Itwouldalwaysbethesameonescallingtheshots.
D.B.:It'sthesameproblem.See,it'sthenewbrainthatdefinesthoseprivileges
settingupthehierarchyandsoon.Thathasaprofoundeffectontheendocrine
system.
E:Weknowthepowerofsomeofthesepeople,andtheydohaveoperationalhigher
functions.I'veactuallyphysicallywitnessedthis.Butyou'renotgoingtorunintoit
accidentally.You'renotgoingtohaveanyoneofthosepeopleadmittinganythingto
anyone,especiallytothosephysicistsorscientistsorpeoplewhoaren'tresponsiblein
thesenseofhavingacompletelyfunctioningconsciencethosewhoareeasilyswayed
byexternalorinternalpressuresthatwouldbedestructive.
D.B.:Whyareyoudissatisfied?

E:I'mdissatisfiedwiththisparticularapproachbecauseitalwaysproducesthis
eternaldivisionbetweenthehaves,whichareveryfew(asinanoligarchy)andthe
havenots,whichisthemassofhumanity.ActuallytheonlyonewhodoesHaveis
Godandalltherestofitdoesn'thave.Inotherwords,everyoneelseisanillusion
exceptGod.Tome,thatissymptomaticofsomething.
D.B.:Ofthetrouble.Iseewhyyou'resayingKrishnamurtiwasthinkingthatway.
E:Iknowthatthatcanneverbe.Inotherwords,ifafewofusescapetotrytogetthe
restoutofthejail,thatinitselfonlymakesthejailstrongerbecausethereisnojail.
Andit'snotlikeyoustoptryingtoescape.Insteadit'snecessarytorecognisethatthe
impulsetoescapeandtheimpulsetobefreeandtheimpulsetobeliberated,all
thesenotionsaboutenslavement,freedomandenlightenmentallthatstuffis
symptomaticofandreinforcesthewholething.Andunlessthewholethinggoesat
once,nothinggoes.That'stheessenceofwhatIcanformulateinwordsunless
everyonegoes,nobodygetsoutbecausethere'snothingtogetoutof.
D.B.:Well,there'snothingtogetoutofbuttherecanbeachange.
E:Changeisnotexcluded.
D.B.:Yousee,we'renottryingtogetoutofanything,butthetroubleisacertain
disharmonywhichalsoleadstofalseperception.Oncetheendocrinesystemandthe
neurochemicalsarenotworkingrightthentheperceptioncan'tworkright.Itwill
distortandthathelpstoholdpeopleinitbecausethey'reseeingthingswrongly,so
thattheverymovesonemakesagainstitarebindingyouindeeper.
E:Butcanitalsobethatthoseveryconclusions,thatentirestringofconclusionsthat
youjuststatedinthatsentenceitselfislikeanimplicateorderaslongasweare

enslavedoratleastreflectinganexplicateorderidea,weareinthatwayperpetuating
theproblem.Theproblemistheimplicate/explicateorder.Inotherwords,thereare
thosewhoaretotallyoldbrainimplicateordertypesandtherearenewbrainexplicate
ordertypes.
D.B.:Youcan'tmakeitthateasilydivided.
E:Intermsofananalogy,aslongasthereisanydistinctionwhatsoeverforanyone,
thissocalledillusionisgoingtocontinueuntilthereisnothinglefttocontinue
withthismeansnotonlythelivingbutthosewhoareabouttoliveandthosewhoare
longdead.Thesymptomswillpersistuntilthereisreallynothingtobethedistinction,
andthatdoesnotinanywayexcludeanypossibilityandneitherdoesitincludeany
possibility.Possibilitiesarehereastheyareanditdoesn'trobanyoneofanything.No
oneistheworseforthisnothingandnooneisthebetterfornothingbecausebetter
andworseareonlypartsofthesymptoms.Unlesseveryoneisactuallynothinginthe
senseofnotemptinessorfullnessbutasisnow,sotospeak,nothing.....Ican'tgoany
furtherwithwords.
D.B.:Wellyoumaybecreatingatrapthatwaybysayingthat...whoknows,eh?One
ofthequestionsiswhethertheremightnotbeotherwaystobreakintothis.
E:Youmeantosaythereisactuallyasolutiontotheproblem?
D.B.:What?Tobreakintothisquestionoftheoldandthenewbrainandthe
endocrinesystemandallthat.
E:Yeah.
D.B.:Somecreativesolutionisneededbutyoucannotproceedfromthegeneral
knowledgewehavetalkedof,intermsofthiswholewayofgoingaboutit,because
mostofitisbasedonpresuppositionsthatincludethat.Ithinkwecanexplorefurther.
Thissystemfunctionoftheoldandthenewbrainsisheldsocioculturally.Itwould
nothavegottenintothatmalfunction....
E:That'sthemechanismthatmaintainsit.
D.B.:Notonlythat.Itprobablyproduceditforthemostpart.
E:Whatseedgeneratedtheplant?
D.B.:Therewasthepossibilityofthisgoingwronginthefactthatthenewbrain
appearedsosuddenlyhighlydevelopedandnothavingdevelopedaconscious
relationtotheoldbrain.Therefore,thenewbrainandtheolddidn'tunderstand
eachother.Thetheoryofthetwopriorbrainswasthattheydevelopedratherslowly
andcameintoakindofharmonywiththeenvironmentsothattheirresponseswere
moreorlessright.Butthenthenewbraincameupratherrapidlyitcametoofast
andwasn'treadytointegratewiththeoldbrain.
E:O.K.,butyou'restillsayingthatoutofnowherethisnewbrainarisesoutof
functionwiththeoldone.
D.B.:Ittakesashorttime.Wedon'tknowwhyevolutionoccursorwhyanythingisor
isn't,butforreasonsasyetunknown,thisnewbrainappeared.Itmustbeinthe
structureofthebrainthatitcandevelopinthisway.Whyhumanbeingsappearedat
allorwhyotherspeciesappearedisanunknownquestion.Wesayit'sinthestructure
thattheycanappear,andiftheyareviablethentheywillsurvive.Itisagiventhat

theyaretherethatsomethingappearedinthiswaythathadthisprobleminit,and
thatthenewbrainandtheoldbrainwerenotinharmony.
E:Youmeanthatthedysfuctionisinherent?
D.B.:Inherentinthatmodeofsuchafastappearance.
E:Sotheoriginalsinconsistsofhavingatwobraindysfunction...(laughing)
D.B.:Thereisnosin.Thebrainwasnotsatisfiedtoremainwhatitwasbutinsisted
ondevelopingmore.Youcouldlookatitsayingthatthatwasacreative
opportunity.Youcouldsaythere'sakindofexperimentgoingontoseeif
somethingmorecanbedone.
E:Forinstance,isn'tthepresentscientificviewoftheuniverse,comingfromtheBig
Bang,thissupercompressedatomintothishugeuniversethatweseeisn'tthatlikea
directfeedbackofourinnerviewoftheuniverse?There'sreallynothingoutthere.We
putourmeaningonit,thatthat'swhatishappeningandthat'swhatisgoingon,butis
itreallygoingon?
D.B.:Iswhatgoingon?
E:IsthereaBigBang?Isthereasupercompressedatom?
D.B.:Thatisahypothesiswhichweknowmaynotbeso.Wecanunderstandthings
bymakingproposalsforexploration.Supposewesaythethreebrainhypothesisisa
proposaltoseewhatinsightitcangiveus,andit'sthesameabouttheuniverse,
whetherthisinsightwillbeofvalueornot.Nowtheproposalleadstotheideathatwe
have,thatsomenewcreativestepisneeded.It'snotyetclearwhetherthiscreative
stepwouldbeonegiganticstep,orwhetheritcouldbeinsmallersteps.
E:Howdoyoutakeastepwhenyouhavenofeet?
D.B.:Thefeetappear.Evolution,right?(laughs)
E:Conveniently!Youneedtotakeastepsothereforeyoumusthavefeet!
D.B.:That'sthewholepointofcreativitythen.
E:Whenyou'vegotnothingyoutryandcreatesomething,eh?Butwhoistheonethat
doesit?
D.B.:Wedon'tcare.Thebrain'sdoingitmankindisdoingit.Youcan'tlocate
exactlywhoisdoingit.That'saquestionwhichhasonlyarelativesignificance.One
couldsaythattheculture,orsomepeopleinitformamicroculturetodoit.It'sgoing
onit'saprocess.
E:Butwherearewegoingwiththisdysfunctionoftheoldandnewbrainnow?Are
wetentativelyagreedthatithastobetransformedallatonce?
D.B.:Wedon'tknow.Thatwasaproposalthatlooksatfirstsightasifithastobeall
atonce,butthatmaybegoingtoofast.We'renotsurethatithastobeallatonce,
right?Andmaybenot,butsomethinghastohappenwhichisnotrestrictedtoone
functionortheother.Thatseemscleartheintellectualfunction,ortheemotionalor
themoving.
E:Bythemovingfunctionyoumeanthemuscularsystem.
D.B.:Yes.
E:Whichwouldbeconnectedtothereptilianpart.
D.B.:Mmhm.Somethinginvolvingthewholebeing,butitmustalsoinvolvethe

culturethesociety,becausethiswholeproblemisnotanindividualproblematall.
Thissortofproblemcouldonlyariseinaculturewhichwouldprovidewordsand
languagebywhichtheseimagescouldbemanipulated.
C:Yeah,asasingularevent,it'snotaproblem.
D.B.:It'sbecausewehaveaculturewhichmaintainsthis.Thewholeendocrine
systemisprofoundlyaffectedbythelanguage.
E:Ortheimpressions?
D.B.:Theimpressionsandthecommunication.Themeaningoftheimpressionsis
whataffectsyouandthemeaningdependsonthewholewaypeoplecommunicate.
E:Butwheredoesmeaningcomefromwhatismeaning?Ismeaningactuallya
substance,achemicalsubstance?
D.B.:No,it'samovement,aprocessbut....Thesymbolhasameaning,right?Now
therearesymbolsthatarenotcommunicable,thatmaybeprivate.Theverbalsymbol
iscommunicable.Thisiscrucialthismadecivilizationpossiblebutitdidn'tonly
affectindustryandsoon,itaffectedthepsycheveryprofoundly.
E:Whichoriginatedfromthemeaning?Psychecameoutofmeaning?
D.B.:Psycheandmeaningareessentiallythesame,perhaps.Thewholemeaning
changedwhenpeoplecouldsymbolise.
E:Sothenthepsychechangedaswell.
D.B.:Yeah,that'sright.Soyoucanproducethewordswhichproduceanger.I'msure
thatchimpanzeeshavecertainsymbolsthatstandforwords,signsthattheymaketo
eachotherandalsootherwaysofcommunicating.Butwecandofarmoreofit.In
thatwaythesocietycansetupasituationwherealltheseneurochemicalsare
affectedbythesocialsituationandtheyintroducetremendousfrustrationbecauseit
isn'tworkingright.Thewholesystemcannotworkrightbecauseit'sstirringupthis
conflictbetweenthetwobrains.
E:Shouldn'taclosedsystem,let'ssayallthesocietiesonearth,allhumansocieties...
D.B.:Butthey'renotclosedtheybreakup.
E:Let'scallitaclosedsysteminthesetermsthatonesocietyoranothermay
fluctuate,butallsocietieswouldbeonecompletesystem.Isthatdisruptionbetween
theoldandnewbrainactuallycontainedinthecontextofhumansocietiesoristhat
disruptiononlyanindicatorthatthereissomethingelsebeyondthedisruption?The
disruptionitselfmaybeexperiencedpersonallyinthesenseofonehumanbeing,but
inthecontextofallofhumanitycouldtherebeanotherrepresentationofwhathuman
beingis.Wouldn'tthatdisruptivenessbetweentheoldandnewbrainbejustlikean
alarmclockitwakesyouup?It'sannoyingtoyou,butassoonasyouwakeupyou
realizethattherewasactuallysomethingmoretodo.Itwasn'twhatyouthoughtit
wasatfirst.
D.B.:WellIdon'tthinkthatdisruptionwouldbeseriousexceptwiththeorganization
ofsociety.Ithinkpeoplewouldstayinastatewhichwassimpleenoughnottocause
aseriousproblem.Thefirstseriousproblemwastheunderstandingofdeath.Nowthat
requiredalevelofsymbolisationitwasonlypossiblesociallytodothat,toforesee
deathyearsahead.Theanimalmaysenseitcomingjustaboutthetimeit'scoming

butwiththeaidofverbalsymbolsyoucanforeseethethingindefinitelyandit
becomesadisruption.Theoldbrainreactsagainstthatthenewbraincomestothe
conclusionthere'sgoingtobedeath.That'sthesocialconclusion.
E:Thenewbrain.
D.B.:Yeah,becauseit'sacomplextopic,theoldbraindoesnotunderstandtimeatall.
Theoldbrainhasvaguely'tomorrow'butthat'saboutall.
E:Sowhendeathhappens,it'sdead.
D.B.:Thenewbrainthinksoftime,longstretchesoftimeandthenitsayswell,
there'sgoingtobedeath.Thenewbrainthenpresentshorrifyingpicturesofdeath
totheoldbrain.
E:(laughing)Yeah,Icandigthat.
D.B.:Andtheoldbraingoesintoterriblealarm,producinganeffectwherethenew
brainnolongerknowswhatit'sdoing.
E:Let'sproposethatthemostdisruptivefactorbetweentheoldbrainandthenew
brainisdeath.
D.B.:I'mnotsureit'sthemostbutitwasoneoftheearliest.Ithinkthereareothers
equallydisruptive.
E:Let'ssaythatdeathisasymbol.Let'ssaytheoldbrainandthenewbrainarea
symbol.Thedisruptionitselfisn'treallycontainedinthecontextofalimited
possibilitylikehumansociety.Ithinkeventuallyhumansocietywouldquicklyrun
down.Ithinkitshouldhaverundownbynowconsideringhowdisruptivehuman
beingshavebeen.Itshouldhavedestroyeditselfbynowintermsofpractical
considerationsbutithasn't,andtherehastobesomeotherfactorthathasprevented
thistotalannihilation,althoughIguesswe'reonthebrink.Thedisruptionthatoccurs
betweenthenewbrainandtheoldbrainisonlyanalarmsystemofsomesort.Let's
assumethat'sthepoint.Elementsofbothbrainshavegeneratedthewaythathuman
societyisstructuredatthemoment,butthearrangementproducesadisharmony,a
discordantfactor.Thatdiscordantfactorisonlytherebecausesocietyhasnot
integrateditselfintosomethingthatismorecomplete.Let'ssaythathumansociety
onearth,completewithitsneurologicalsystemsanditssymbolsystemsastheyare
presently,isinadequatetohandlethepotentialofthenewbrainandtheoldbrain
together.
D.B.:Oursocietycan'thandleitoursymbolsystemcan'thandleit.
E:Let'ssay,becausehumanbeingsarestillearthbased,earthcentered,geophysically
centeredintermsoftheirconsiderations,humansocietiesarestillbasicallysurvival
oriented,largelyconcernedwithfoodproduction,shelter,territoriality,reproduction
andafewotherthings.Intermsofthepotentialthatcouldberealized,comparedwith
howinefficientlythenewbrainandtheoldbrainoperatetogether,thiscombinationof
thetwointheirrelationshiptoeachotherproducesadiscordanteffect.Thenewbrain
isbeingutilizedforafunctionwellbelowitsfullpotentiality.Supposingthoughthat
thenextstepinhumancivilizationwouldbetoencompasssocietynotasjustearth
centeredbutaspartofaninterplanetarysociety,towhichtheotherplanetsalso
contribute.Itwouldbeunderstoodthatplanetaryandstellarinfluences,inaquantum

physicalmanner,areactuallyproducingnoticeableresultsatourscaleofexistence
andthereisactualinteraction,betweenourselvesandtheearth,betweenallthe
planetsinoursolarsystem,andwithinthelocalstarsystemthatthesunhappenstobe
in.Whatifthesocietyofhumanbeingsinitsbasicapproachtowhateverrealityis,
developedconsciousnessthatway?Wouldtherethenbeadisruptionofhumanlifeor
wouldthatbeadevelopment?
D.B.:Well,Idon'tknow.Ithinkuntilweunderstandthewayourthoughtworks,
ourwholemindworks,thebodyandmind,Idon'tknowthatanyouterchangeis
goingtoalterthingsfundamentally.
E:That'swhatI'msaying.Let'ssaythatthestarsandtheplanetsthemselvesare
actuallysymbolswithinourownneurologicalsystem.Andweourselvesaresymbols
withinourownmind,whateverthatis.Containedwithinthatmindarepiecescalled
humanbeingswiththeirlittlebrainsandpossibilities,andalsocontainedwithinthe
mindisasetofsymbolsthatproportionatelyincreasesanddecreasestheplanets
becomebiggerorsmallerasthemindgetscloserandclosertowhatthemindreallyis.
Wouldthiscontinuousdiscordbeoriginatingfromamorecosmicfactorthanthe
earthbasedhumansocietygeneratedideasaboutreality.Thegeneralassumptionis
thateverythinglivingisearthbasedandthatwe'retotallyaloneinahuge,
indifferentuniverse.Apossibleremedytothisassumptioncouldcomeabout
througharecognitionthatwhathappensonourlittleplanet,inourlittlelivesreally
isn'tthatsignificantwithoutaconnectiontoamoreuniversalperspective.Our
problemsarisefromournarrowmindedness.Asourmindsexpandoutintothe
universe,theuniversecomesintoourlivesandthenthediscordgetslessandless.
Thediscordbetweenthenewbrainandtheoldbrainwouldbecomemoreandmore
balancedandlessandlessdiscordantaswebecomemoreattunedtothe
completeness,tothewholeness.Ratherthanbeingfocusedinonthisparticleof
earth,wewouldthengooutintotheuniversal.Whenwecouldcombineboththe
particularandthegeneraltogetherwewouldreachthegroundwhichwouldthen
beacompletebalancingofwhattheoldandthenewis.Thentherewouldnotbean
oldandanewbutacompletelyunified,unbrokenunityagain.
D.B.:Well,itmightbe.Thequestionisagainamatterofspeculationaboutthe
universe.Idon'tthinkthepresentscientificobservations,calculationsand
speculationsdeeplyaffectthepsycheofpeopleingeneralbecausethey'resoabstract
andesoteric.
E:Buttheydoaffecttheminthesensethatthosesameabstractionscanproduce
hydrogenbombs.
D.B.:Onlyinthatway,butnotinadirectway.
E:That'swhattheoldbraincanrecognizeasasymbol.
D.B.:What?
E:Well,it'sjustlikethehydrogenbombisabigclub.
D.B.:Theoldbrainisalsoresponsiblenotonlyforhatebutforlove.It'sthe
emotionalsource.Someofthemostsubtlethingsmaycomefromtheoldbrain.The
newbrainhasitssubtlety.Itmaybethenewbrainthat'sstuckonsomerather

limitedsetsofideaswhichgiveasenseofsecuritytotheoldbrain.It'sneither,but
bothworkingtogethertogetstuck.Theoldbrainwantsasenseofsecurityandthe
newbrainthereforefeelscompelledtoprovidefixedideas,limitedideas.Ifyouwant
tobreakoutbygettingpeopletofeelthemselvespartofthecosmos,ifyoumerely
presentcalculationsaboutwhatwassupposedtohavehappened,firstofallmost
peopledon'tunderstandthem,andsecondlytheyhaveverylittleintuitivecontent
whichaffectstheartisticsideofthenewbrainwhichcancontacttheoldbrain.The
oldbraindoesn'tunderstandthesecalculations,that'sonesurething.
E:Right.Whichseemstobethestateofmostpeople.
D.B.:Nobody'soldbrainwillunderstandcalculations.Thepointissomesubtlethings
gooninpeoplewhohaveimmersedthemselvesinthemsothatitaffectsthemwith
subtleimages.Mostpeoplecan'tdothat.SoIdon'tthinkthatwhatwasbeingsaid
abouttheuniverseisgoingtodothis.What'sbeingpresentedisakindofuniverse
that'squiteindifferenttohumanbeingswhichseemslikeacoldandmeaningless
place.It'snotgoingtoappealtotheoldbrain.
C:Whataboutwhatcouldbefelttowardstheuniverse?Sayingyou'rerightisnot
goingtoeveraffectanyone,butwhatpeoplefeeltowardstheuniverse,couldthatbe
ameasureofbreakthrough?
D.B.:Butwhatwillmakethemfeelonewayortheother?
C:Anactualfeelingofbeingunifiedwiththeuniverse.
E:You'veheardthestorythatactuallytheuniverseislove.You'veheardthisfrom
varioussourcesthattheuniverse,alloftheuniverse,everythingweareislove.So
whatisthislove?Whatisthisthingthatissatisfyingnotonlytotheoldbrainbutto
thenewbrain,anditmeetsalltherequirementsforthenewbraintoexpandintoits
wildestimaginings,whileatthesametimesatisfyingeverypossiblefearand
necessitythattheoldbrainmayhave.
D.B.:Thathasbeentriedforthousandsofyearsbut...
E:Butit'sonlyworkedforafew,apparently.
D.B.:Yes.Themeaningofthewordlovehasbecomeveryconfusedthroughoutthe
ages,anditisnotveryclearwhatismeantwhenyouusethosewords.Theword'love'
inLatinisbasedonsomethinglikelibidoorthingslikethatmeaningsexualpassion.
ThesameinEnglish,andthesameineventheword'friend',basedontheNorseword
'freund'meaningthegoddessoflove,'Freya'.People,ataboutthetimetheywere
developingmodernlanguages,musthavehadthatgeneralview.Idon'tknowifthey
alwayshaditbutthatwasthefirstconfusion.Theytookthisloveyou'retalkingabout
andfocuseditonsomenarrowarea.Freudsaidthislaterhesublimatedloveintoa
largerarea,butthisisnotthesameasyouaretalkingabout.Tosayloveisfirst
focusedandthenit'sextendedoffintoscienceorsomeotherarea.
E:No,becauseobviouslythenewbrainwouldn'tbesatisfiedwiththat.Itcouldsee
faultsinthetheoryofthatrepresentationoflove.
D.B.:Lovehasmanymeanings.Youhavelove,friendshipyouhavefellowship.In
moderntimesthey'retalkingabouttheloveobject,emphasizinganobjectthatevokes
it.Butinfact,that'scontrarytotheideayouweretalkingabout.

C:Well,asonefeelsloveforone'shomeland,that'sverybasicwhataboutloveinthe
universalsense?
D.B.:Lovehasbeencomparedalsoinsomecasestoacentralsunthatdoesnot
dependonanyobjectatall,butshines.
C:ThatallstrikesmeasratherconceptualthoughwhenIhearthosepeoplewho
practicethatkind.Itsoundsveryconceptualitdoesn'tsoundlikethey'refeelingit.
D.B.:I'mnotsayingthey'refeelingit.Yousee,tohavetheideaandtobringitto
realityaretwoentirelydifferentthingsbutitmayhavesomemeritintheidea.
E:Wouldlovebewherefearisn't?
D.B.:Yes,butthenhowdoyoustopfear?Theoldbraingetsfrightened.It'sbuiltto
getfrightenedwhenthere'sdanger.
E:Wellthisisit.Whatconstitutesthedanger?Dangeralwaysseemstocomefrom
another.Itnevercomesfromyourself.
D.B.:Butitdoes.Peopleareafraidofgoingcrazyandgoingtopieces.That'soneof
thegreatestfears.
E:Inotherwords,evenunityoronenesswillproducefear.
D.B.:Yes.Fearisfearofdisruptionfundamentally.Fearofdeathislikethat,but
thefearofdisruptionmightbeworsethanthefearofdeath.
E:Atacertainpoint.
D.B.:Yeah.
E:Ifyouseewhatthephenomenonofdeathis.
D.B.:See,themedievalideaofhellwasworsethanthefearofdeathbecauseitwould
goonforever.
C:Isthatoneoftheotherconceptsyouweretalkingaboutbesidesdeaththat
would....
D.B.:What?
C:Youweretalkingaboutdisruption.
D.B.:Yeah,thefearofinnermostdisruptionisprobablyoneofthemostprimal...
Yousee,thebrainsomehowhastohaveaninnerorder.Whenthatbreaksdown,it
reallybecomesatremendoussourceoffear.Whenitlooksasifit'sbreakingdown
maybeit'snot.
E:Wellthisisit.Everywhereinordinarylife,aswellasinmostotherphilosophical
discourses,themostdespised,disgusting,unspeakableideaisnothing.Peopleliterally
spititout,"Doyouwanttobenothing?".
D.B.:That'spartofthethingtosaythedistinctionofbeinganothing.
E:Butthat"oblivion"seemstobethemosthideousendthatyoucouldpossiblycome
to.
D.B.:Ontheotherhand,theBuddhistsareperfectlyhappywiththeidea.Itdepends
onthebackground.
E:Idon'tknowaboutthatbecausenothingstillhasthisriderof'nothingassuch'.
'Nothingassuch'maybeclosetowhatIunderstandbutIstillthinkthatifsomething
arisesoutofit,thensomethingstillarisesoutofit.Inotherwords,ifitwerenothing
therewouldbenothingtotalkabout.Youwouldknownothingeveryonewould

knownothingandbenothing.Beingandnotbeingwouldn'tbeinanywayrelevantor
irrelevanttonothing.Andyouwouldn'tbetalkingaboutBuddhasandBuddhismand
philosophiesandtherestofit.Thisisthetrickbecauseyes,Iamfamiliarwithsome
oftheteachingsthathavebeenlaiddownalongtheselines,andforawhileIwasled
tobelievethattheexponentsofsamewerequiteright.ButthenIalsobegantosee
thatasaresultofsuchviews,somethingisbeingproducedlikesomefollowing,
somebeliefsystem,whicheventuallyandinevitablyturnsintothesameold
disruptionroutine.
D.B.:Well,Ithinkthat'sanotherquestionastothesearchforsecurity.Theoldbrain
issearchingforsecurityit'sbuilttodothat,andatacertainlevelitmakessense.
Now,thedifficultyisthatitcannottellwhentheimagesandideasproducedbythe
newbrainstarttostiritupitrespondsrathersimilarlytothekindofthingsthatit's
builttorespondto.Therefore,itmayeitherrespondwithexcessivepleasureorwith
fearorwithrage,disruptingthewholesystem.Ithinkthathateandragearethe
greaterchallengethanfear.Peoplebeingfrustrated,theydeveloprage.Isawan
experimentwithananimal.Theytouchedawiretoacertainpleasurecenterintheold
brain.Theytoucheditlightlyandthecatlookedincrediblypleased.Theytouchedit
moreanditwasreallyterrified.Thentheygaveithighervoltageanditshowedhowit
wasterriblyenraged.Itwasreadytotearyoutopiecesbuttherewasanairofpleasure
aboutit.Itwould'veenjoyedit.
E:Itwould'velovedtotearyouapart?
D.B.:Yeah.Itwouldenjoyit.It'sclearthatthereisacenterfromwhichenergyis
stirredup,psychicenergy.Accordingtohowit'stouched,itwouldstiritupin
differentways.Now,ifit'stouchedlightlyitdoesn'tdisruptthesystem,butthenthe
touchproducesfear,itstartstodisrupt.Yousee,therewasnothingforthecattobe
afraidofbutitwasafraid.Becauseitwasafraidofitself.Itwasafraidofthe
disruptionwhichthiswirewasproducing.Itwasreallybeingsortofdisintegrated.It
lookedthatway.Butthestillmoreintensestimulusmeantitwasenragedanditwould
trytoturnthatragetowardssomethinganddestroyit.
E:O.K.Supposeyoutookthewholesameideatoahumanlevelortothenextform
upabovehuman,thenextintelligentlevelup.Wouldn'titalwaysbethesame
situationaslongastherewassomeoneorsomething?Aslongasyouaresomething,
therewillbedisruption,nomatterwhat,nomatterhowhigh.
D.B.:Butthecatwasn'tthinkingwhat"itself"was.
E:Itwasinitselfwhatitwas.
D.B.:Yes,itwaswhatitwasbuttheminutethatnervewastouchedallthis
disturbanceoccurred.
E:Istherealwaysgoingtobe...
D.B.:Notnecessarily.I'mgoingtoproposethewayout.Thecatwasnotdeveloped
enoughtofindawayoutofthat.Let'ssaythatsomethingtouchesourcentralnerves
inthebaseofthebrainandthewholebrainisstirredup.Nowthebraindoesn'thave
anywayofhandlingthatenergy.Itsortofgoesintochaos.Therageisfrustratedit
candonothing.Fearcausespanic.Thequestionis,isthereawayofabsorbingthat

energysothatitdoesn'tdisruptthebrain.
E:Sure.Allyoudoisincreasethecapacityofthecircuitstohandletheenergy.
D.B.:Ifyoufindsomethingwhichcanusethatenergy.Thepointisthatwemayhave
specifictasksthatcanuseit,butthenyoubecomedependentonthesespecific
outlets.
E:Andthenyouhavethatrage,whichwouldsimplybeaconfiningofthatenergyin
thelimitedcircuitrythat'savailable.
D.B.:Butthentheragewilltransformifthatenergyisabsorbedinsomeway.
E:Right.Exactly.Sotherageinitselfisjustasymptomofpoorcircuitryornot
enoughcircuitrytohandleacertainlevelofintensity.
D.B.:Notenoughtohandleitall.Notasubtleenoughcircuitforittohandlethe
wholething.
E:O.K.Doyouthinkthesameproblemcouldexistforhumanbeings?
D.B.:Oh,itdoes.
E:Aretherethosewhoareimplantingtheirelectrodesintoourbrains?
D.B.:Wedon'tneedtoimplantelectrodes.Thoughtsstirupthesecentersinthesame
way
E:ButImeanjustasahumanbeingistoacat,aretherebeingswhomaybe
implantingsomethinginus,notinaviciouswaybutinascientificallycuriousway?
D.B.:Wellthat'saspeculation.
C:Wedon'tneedthembecausewedoitourselves.
D.B.:Wedon'tneedthemwecanseeitrightaway,happening.Byacertainsetof
words,youcanstiruprage.Thewordsproduceneurochemicalreactionsbecauseof
theirmeaningthenewbrainsaysthat'sterrible,that'soutrageousandthenitgoesinto
theoldbrain.Theoldbrainrespondswiththosecentersstirringupvastenergy.
E:Whatisthesourceofallmeaningforhumanlife,forinstance?Ordoesithaveto
goouttoauniversalmeaninginordertobevalid,evenforahuman?
D.B.:Nay.Ithinkthatyouwillfindthatwhenpeoplegetintothis,allthoseother
questionsarepushedasidebythisfloodingenergy.
E:Yes,that'sright.Yougetsomethingintenseenough,allthelessersubtletybreaks
down.
D.B.:Yes,itfloods.Ifyou'reoutinthedesert,youseetheuniverse.ComeintoLas
Vegasandyouseenothingbuttheelectriclights.Youcouldsaythere'snouniverse.
E:Oratleasttheuniversehassuddenlychangedforminto....
D.B.:IntoLasVegas.
E:Yes.Sodoyouthinkthatthemeaningitselfisthesourceofalldisruption?
D.B.:Well,butit'sadisruptionofmeaning.There'sameaningwhichstirsuphatred
andfear.Thesearetwothings,andalsothesenseofsecurityandpleasureorother
sensestocounteractthat.
E:Butallofthosearesubsetsofthebasicmeaning.Meaningitselfcouldbethe
sourceofthetrouble.Doyouthinkthatmeaningitselfisthewayoutofthetroubleas
well?
D.B.:Yes,anewmeaning.Wearecaughtinacycleofmeaningwhichislimited.

E:ThisiswhatIwantedtotalktoyouabout.WeworkwiththeTarot,whichisaset
ofsymbolicimagesconnectedtoarchetypalmeanings.Butthereisoneimagecalled
theJudgement,thathasbecomeverymeaningful.Theimageshowsthreegravesout
ofwhichthedeadarearising,adultmaleandfemale,andthenthechild.They'reall
prayingtoanArchangel.ThistarotcardissupposedtorepresenttheLastJudgement
ortheResurrectionoftheDead,orintermsofChristianity,Jesuscomingoutofthe
tomb.InmeditatingonthisimageIsuddenlyrealizedthatthisisexactlythepoint
wheremeaningends.WhenJesuswasonthecrossandhewasasking"whereismy
mother,whereismyfather",Godhasdesertedhim.It'sexactlyatthatpointwherethe
entiremeaningoftheuniversedies,andthatsymbolrepresentswhatIunderstandnow
tobewhatshouldbecalledthehighmeaninglessness.Whenallmeaningbecomes
meaningless,thatiswhatwouldbecalled'resurrection'.Thatwouldbethepoint
whereJesusbecametheChrist,wheremanbecomesgod,sotospeak.Whatyou're
talkingaboutisexactlywhatthatis.It'swhenallmeaning,everymeaning,thebig
meaningbehindone'slifebecomesmeaningless.Whenparticlefinallymeetsanti
particlethat'stheannihilationpointthatannihilationpointispossiblythebridgeinto
anotheruniverse.
D.B.:Yeah,butifit'sanotheruniverse,it'sgotanothermeaningthen.
E:Right,butthat'sjustit.Meaningisbasedonrelationship.Youhavetohavetwo
thingsbeforeyoucanhaveathirdmeaning.That'sthewholepointofmeaning.In
ordertobebeyondmeaning,onearrivesatmeaninglessnessit'slikethetetrahedron
ofPythagoras,thesymbolforsacredfire.It'sthetriangularpyramidwithfourpoints.
It'slikethatfourthpoint.That'swhereyouhitthedivinespark,wheremeaning
becomesmeaningless.It'slikewhathappenedbeforetheBigBang.That'sthepointof
meaninglessness,wheretimeandspacecompletelyendandeverymeaningthat
you'veattributedtolifeandtheuniversehasfinallyexhausteditselfandyou'verun
outofeverything,that'swhenyouencounterthehighmeaninglessness.Notinthe
senseofthelittlemeaninglessnessesthatweattributetomeaning,but
meaninglessnessasthetotaltranscendenceofmeaningaltogether.Andunlessyou
canlivewithmeaninglessnessyouwillstillbecaughtinthesamemeaning,and
thusyouwillnotinanywaychangeandthesituationwillnotchange.You'llonly
squeezetheairintheballoonandit'llgooverherebutit'llbethesameairinthesame
balloon.It'swhenyoucanactuallyendurecomplete,total,uttermeaninglessnessthat
therewillbearealmeaningtoallofit,sotospeak.
D.B.:You'restillnotsayingthatthere'snomeaning,oryou'reessentiallydenyingthe
sortofmeaningsthatwe'reusedto.
E:EverythingthatI'msayingandeverymeaningthatI'mattributingtoit,eventhe
ideaoftranscendingeverythingthatisintheuniverse,everythingthathaseverbeen
saidandeverwillbesaidinthecontextofauniverse,whateverthatmaybe.Yes,I'm
sayingthatwhatI'msayingismeaningless.
D.B.:Yes,butthenyou'resayingthatthereisneverthelessameaningthatwillcome.
E:No,notexactly.ItonlymeansthatIcan'treallysaywhatitisaccordingtomy
meaning.

D.B.:Yeah,butpreviouslyyousaidtherewasanothermeaning.
E:Yes,thereisameaningbeyondtheverynarrowandlimitedsetofmeaningsthat
weattributeto"reality".ButIalsothinkthatmeaninglessnesshappensallthetime,
andwefrequentlyruninto"it"andsomehowlifestillcarrieson.Ithinkthat'sthe
essenceoflife,thisinterplaybetweenmeaningandmeaninglessness,ifyouwantto
callitthat.Ifthereisa"relationship"thenit'snottherelationshipof"ones"to
"zeroes"butof"zeroesthroughzeroes/zeroesthroughinfinity".Itisthatpointof
meaninglessnessorthatmomentoftruthwhereyou'restandingnakedbeforeGod
orwhateveryouwishtocallitornotcallit.Whenyou'retotallystrippedofall
meaning,strippedofthetwopolaritiesthatderivethethirdpoint,whenyou're
totallystrippedofthatbasictriadandyou'reinexpressiblynaked,that'sthatpoint
ofmeaninglessness.Whereeverythingisasitisanditisn't.Wearebasically
strippedandwe'renothing.Ithinkthat'sthepointofwhatwouldbetermedmystical
resurrection,butifit'stakeninthecontextofoldmeaningsthenit'snotwhatI
mean.Thismeaninglessnessisnotdependentonanymeaningthatwemayhavesofar.
I'mnotsayingthatwhenthatmeaninglessnessisrealizedthatthereisevengoingto
beameaning.Idon'tknowintermsofanymeaningsthatIhaveavailabletome.
However,allowingourselvestobeinthe"situation"ofsuchhighmeaninglessness
maybethesolutiontothedysfunction.
D.B.:Howdoyouknowit'sthere?
E:Therenessispartofmeaning.
D.B.:Howdoyouknowthatwhatyou'resayingistrue?
E:Eventruthitselfis...
D.B.:Yeah,butyou'regettingintoacircletryingtosayit.
E:Butthatiswhatwearein.Weareinacircleandtheonlywaywecanpenetrate
thatcircleorgetoffthewheelsotospeakisto...Idon'tknow.Eitheritbecomes
totallymeaninglessoryoubecomecompletelynothing.Idon'tknowwhatthatis.
D.B.:Whatmakesyousayitthen?
E:Idon'tknowwhatmakesmesayit...Ithinkthatit'spossibletosay.Idon'tknowif
ithasanykindofuse.It'sanintuitionthatIunderstandispresenteverywhere,andif
wewouldonlyrecognizeitnotasanenemybutasourdearestfriend,thendeath
wouldnolongerrulelifebutwouldbeitslaughterthrougheverypossibility,rather
thananagonizingtormentineverystep,everyphase.Ithinkthatifwecould
integratemeaninglessnessintooureverydaylife
D.B.:Uhhuh
E:...that'swhendeathandthefearconnectedtoit,thefearofdisruption,wouldno
longerjiggleusonitsstringslikepuppets.Wejiggleourownstrings.Wewouldn't
bejigglingthatwayifwewouldonlyallowmeaninglessnesstopenetrate,toseepinto
us.Becausemeaninglessnessreallymeansjustbeingfreeofmeaning,freeofthehabit
tohavemeaning,andbeingfreeoftheconstantcycleofgoingupanddownand
reconciling.Idon'tknowifsuchanotionwillbeuseful,butthereitis.Ifrecognition
couldbesaidinonesentence,itwouldbeasfollows.HighMeaninglessnessisnot
theentranceintoanythingthatwilldisruptmeaningbutisinsteadthe

consciousnessoftheunbrokencontinuityofandbeyondeverything.Atleast,that's
whatisbeingproposedhere,uptothispoint.
D.B.:Uhhuh...
EndOfConversation
E&C:Thankyou,David.Forever.AndBeyond!

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