Thayer Consultancy

Background Briefing:

ABN # 65 648 097 123

Indonesia: INTERPOLs
Red/Purple Notice re Hua Li 8
Carlyle A. Thayer
May 4, 2016
[client name deleted]
1. If Indonesia moves ahead with the investigation and ends up scuttling the
Chinese-owned Hua Li 8 for maritime crimes as yet unspecified, how might this
contribute to escalating tensions between the two countries over Chinas purported
historical fishing rights that lie in Indonesian waters? Though this incident is not
related to the Natuna dispute per se, do you see the latest boat capture as having
the potential to affect the territorial spat overall? Perhaps by compelling a more
concrete response from China over its nine-dash line claims in Indonesia, or
something of that order? Any assessment of the implications of this latest capture
and future ones on the 'cold' but 'getting-warmer' nine-dash dispute with China
would be most helpful.
ANSWER: The case of the Hua Li 8 is different from the botched case several weeks
ago when a China Coast Guard vessel prevented Indonesian maritime authorities
from taking a fishing trawler found poaching in Indonesian water back to port. The
Hua Li 8 was found fishing illegally in Argentine waters and escaped arrest. Argentina
reported the matter to INTERPOL. Indonesia was notified that the Hua Li 8 was in its
waters and executed an arrest. While the Hua Li 8 may have been fishing in what
China claims are its historical waters the legal status of the Hua Li 8 is related to
illegal fishing in Argentinas Exclusive Economic Zone.
The case of the Hua Li 8 will be dealt with differently and will not inflame the dispute
between China and Indonesia over historical fishing rights. This is a legal matter
between Argentina and the owners of the Hua Li 8. Indonesia only executed an
INTERPOL request. This affair is unrelated to Chinas nine-dash line claim.
2. A recent article on the arrest of the Hua Li 8 alleged that the Chinese government
was subsidizing the poaching of foreign fisheries. Can you comment on this claim? Is
it true? If so, to what extent, effect, and is the country unique in this respect
regionally?
ANSWER: China, particularly its provincial governments, subsidize their fishing fleet.
They encourage the construction of steel hulled trawlers and they provide subsidies
based on engine size, the larger the engine the more subsidy. I do not think the
Chinese state encourages illegal fishing. The South China Sea is different from
elsewhere because of Chinas nine-dash line claim. It has not been defined so

2
captains of fishing boats and China Coast Guard vessels do not know precisely where
this line is located at sea. This means that Chinese fishing boats can operate with
impunity. They are encouraged by local authorities in Hainan island to go further
south.
3. Under [Indonesian President] Jokowis more inward-leaning foreign policy, has
Indonesia truly 1) reneged on its leadership role in ASEAN and 2) if so, what does this
say about its ability to manage its own dispute with China over the Natunas? It can
be imagined that Indonesias unilateral response to illegal fishing also says
something about ASEAN's future.
ANSWER: President Jokowi is pursuing a more independent foreign policy path than
his predecessors. There is widespread agreement among many analysts that
Indonesia is not giving ASEAN the priority it deserves. A senior Indonesia officials told
Thayer Consultancy recently that Indonesia does not take many matters to ASEAN
because nothing gets done. Jokowis Global Maritime Fulcrum aims to establish
Indonesia as a major player in both the Pacific and Indian Oceans. This is an ambition
and not yet reality.
Indonesia seeks to play an honest broker role in South China Sea territorial disputes.
Indonesia does not need ASEAN to resolve its dispute with China over the waters
around Natuna. China has recognized that Natuna islands are Indonesian territory.
Indonesias go it alone approach to illegal fishing has not resulted in strained
relations with Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia or the Philippines.
4. Relatedly, will Indonesias hardline stance on protecting sovereignty inexorably
lead the country into open confrontation with China? Or, is this possibility
constrained by other more powerful considerations like Chinese investment?
ANSWER: Both China and Indonesia will work to reduce clashes at sea. There are
some indications that the overall number of Chinese fishing boats in Indonesias EEZ
has declined, nonetheless it continues. With one exception Indonesia has not blown
up or scuttled Chinese impounded fishing boats. Both Indonesia and China want
Chinese investment in Indonesias infrastructure. This is a bigger game than illegal
fishing. Both sides will work this out if only imperfectly in practice.
5. Can you explain what happens when Interpol issues a purple notice, and how
this differs from a red notice? Is Interpol effectively deterring fishing crimes?
ANSWER: My understanding is that a purple notice relates to the methods used by
criminals to avoid detection and arrest, such as new or novel smuggling techniques.
INTERPOL passes on this information in a purple notice to other state law enforce
agencies.
From the INTERPOLs home page:
Purple Notice
To seek or provide information on modus operandi, objects, devices and
concealment methods used by criminals.
Red Notice

3
To seek the location and arrest of wanted persons with a view to extradition or
similar lawful action.
A red notice is issued when a state has issued an arrest warrant for an alleged crime.
INTERPOL issues a red notice to its members for enforcement.
The media reported that INTERPOL issued a purple notice on the basis of information
received from Argentina. This looks strange to me as it should have been a red
notice.
6. Does Indonesias hardline stance on illegal fishing have any effect on coordination
from the purple notice? For instance, perhaps waiting to nab the delinquent boat
until it is in Indonesian waters is a good way to ensure that prosecutions for chronic
offenders will result in a blowing up of the ship rather than just a slap on the wrist?
ANSWER: Indonesia will arrest and detain the crew and their boat caught fishing
illegally in Indonesian waters. The purple notice is not relevant to the arrest. If the
illegal fishing boat were the subject of a red notice, Indonesia would notify INTERPOL
and the final result would be diplomatic negotiations with Argentina.

Suggested citation: Carlyle A. Thayer, Indonesia: INTERPOLs Red/Purple Notice re

Hua Li 8, Thayer Consultancy Background Brief, May 4, 2016. All background briefs
are posted on Scribd.com (search for Thayer). To remove yourself from the mailing
list type UNSUBSCRIBE in the Subject heading and hit the Reply key.
Thayer Consultancy provides political analysis of current regional security issues and
other research support to selected clients. Thayer Consultancy was officially
registered as a small business in Australia in 2002.