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Forum - Safety

Topic - Dealing with Waste


Fragum

I have been roaming this site for a few weeks, and with Hoke's book on it's way (fyi Harold) and Steve's
DVD's I should be ready to start recovering pm's here pretty soon.
I do have concerns about how to correctly deal with wastes. I am looking for some insight into how you guys
deal with this issue.
No reason to reinvent the wheel here. Thanks in advance for your input.

4metals

Waste treatment for the small refiner.


Most of the practicing alchemists on this forum generate waste liquids which, if you have the time and desire,
can be neutralized and made free of toxic metals rather simply. The required supplies are simply a pH meter, a
few plastic tanks (15 gallon size is ideal), an aquarium air pump and some tubing, slab of copper, some scrap
iron. The advantage you have in being a small producer is that you have the time to let the solutions sit and
react before proceeding to the next step. Because of this you do not need expensive pH controllers or a filter
press and the associated pumps.
The procedure that follows is for your acid waste only, it is not for cyanide or leaching type wastes, only the
spent acids used to digest the metals you have refined.
Select a plastic tank to use as a holding tank for your spent acid, if it is translucent it makes it easy to see how
full it is. This tank should have a lid to keep out rainwater and it should be kept where it will not freeze. What
we will do in this tank is a process called cementation, whereby you hang a slab of copper metal in the waste
acid to displace any precious metals which may still be in solution. When the tank is approaching full, maybe
a few inches from the top, the copper is suspended in the tank and the solution is agitated to expose the copper
to as much solution as possible. An easy and inexpensive trick is to buy an aquarium pump and some tubing
and weigh the end of the hose down so it is close to the bottom of the tank and let it bubble away. Overnight
should suffice. The copper bar will have displaced any PMs in the solution which will settle to the bottom.
Dont expect a lot of material to settle from each load, but in time the material on the bottom is collected and
refined for values. Allow the solution to settle after removing the bubbler and the copper bar, a few hours
should do it. Now siphon the acid into another tank, being careful not to suck out any of the settled material.
Usually a few inches of solution left on the bottom will prevent you from sucking out the solids and it is just
left in the tank as you start to accumulate more waste acid.
A simple siphon device to prevent siphoning all the way to the bottom can be easily made as follows; cut a
length of CPVC pipe about 24 long, glue on a tee, followed by a 6 piece of pipe and a cap on the end. I
prefer to use half inch copper pipe sized CPVC because it is nice and slim and easy to find tubing to slip
over the end. Now you will need some flexible tubing to slip snugly over the end of the pipe opposite the
capped end, about 4 or 5 feet will do. You will now have a hose and a short length of pipe which has an
opening (because of the tee) 6 from the capped end. To start a siphon, place a finger over the hole in the tee
and fill the entire hose and pipe with fresh water, then quickly submerge the capped end and place the end of
the hose lower than the solution level in the tank. With this setup you dont have to worry about sucking the
solids off the bottom of the tank. One drawback is the tank you are siphoning from has to be higher than the
tank you are siphoning to, so youll have to lift the full cementation tank on to a table to siphon it completely.
This second step can boil over if youre not careful so I would transfer the liquid from the 15 gallon
cementation tank into a 30 gallon tank if youre going to process this all at once. Add your air bubbler to the
30 gallon tank and start bubbling. Check your pH, it should be close to zero when you start. Slowly add soda
ash to the bubbling liquid, it will foam and generate CO2 so be careful not to boil it over, since an aquarium
pump doesnt move the liquid aggressively, add the soda ash slowly and stir with a pvc pipe occasionally to
make sure it all is dissolving. Slowly over the course of a day or two raise the pH to 2.5.
Now you will add scrap iron to the tank, it can be done by placing the pieces of iron directly in the tank and
fishing them out later, (needless to say with rubber gloves on) or you can get a plastic tank that fits into the 30
gallon tank, drill holes in it on the sides and bottom, and immerse the iron in all at once. The iron will displace
copper and other metals from solution and slowly dissolve in the liquid. The iron will get coated up and a good
shaking will remove the coating from the iron. After a few hours, the solution will have a green tea look to it

Gold Refining Forum 2015

March 21, 2015

Forum - Safety
Topic - Dealing with Waste
which is ferric chloride. If you leave the iron in longer it will continue to dissolve so remove it and rinse it
well. The copper and other metals will accumulate on the bottom of the 30 gallon tank where they are from
time to time collected and dried.
You now use the siphon device to siphon the liquid to a final tank. Your primary contaminant now is iron. You
can raise the pH with sodium hydroxide and the iron will drop out of solution which is quite easy to recognize.
Unfortunately this liquid is a bit gel like and doesnt filter well. A better way is to raise the pH with
Magnesium hydroxide, the resultant sludge settles better and dries nicely. You cannot measure the pH of the
reaction while adding magnesium hydroxide because it is slow to change the pH and you will over add, just go
slowly and when you get the color change youll know the iron has dropped out. Let the iron settle and you
can siphon off the now clear liquid to discard.
Note; in the time since this was originally posted some members have had issues with incomplete dropping of
the values from their waste. This is usually because there is not enough exposure of the values in solution to
the copper. The key here is time and surface area. As this process only works when the metals beneath copper
on the electromotive series chart come in contact with the copper, it is important to have a lot of circulation (as
in the air bubbler) and enough time for the reaction to go to completion. I have had great success using copper
in the powdered or even dust form to carry out this cementation very quickly. (the metals below Copper on the
electromotive series are basically all of the precious metals and Mercury)
Please remember your stannous chloride test will indicate when all of the values have been removed from the
solution.
Harold_V
4metals wrote:
I'm sure you, Lou, and Harold could shed some valuable insight about waste treatment and witnessing
refining.

Sadly, that is not the case with me. I didn't have a clue about proper interaction with refiners when submitting
a lot of material, although I feel I was treated fairly by GD Resources when I delivered some of my waste
material that had been treated with cyanide previously.
As for disposal issues, my routine was to cement the solutions with scrap steel, just as you suggested, but I
discharged the iron bearing solution instead of attempting to remove the iron. Had you not posted the
procedure, I would have had no clue how to accomplish that task.
I had a unique setup, very unlike that of anyone else on the forum. When I refined, I was a resident of Utah. I
lived in the Salt Lake Valley, where affluent from sewage processing plants ended up in the Great Salt Lake, a
body of water that is mined for some elements, such as magnesium. It would be safe to say that discharging
the iron wasn't much of an issue in that the lake is devoid of life forms aside from brine shrimp and a strange
little black fly.
Were I to refine today, I would benefit greatly from your contributions. It certainly is nice to have someone
aboard that has your experience.
Harold
goldsilverpro

The big companies I was associated with almost always had the material hauled by a legal hauler, such as
Univar. Of course, they had huge quantities of waste. About 5 years ago, in Houston, they charged less than
$1/gallon to pick up acid wastes and $1.25/gallon for cyanide wastes. For the owners, this was the cheapest
way to go.
In California, at one place I worked, an oil company picked up our acid wastes for nothing. They somehow
used it to flush oil wells. I also heard about others doing that when I was in Texas.
When I treated my own wastes, I did it about the same way as Harold. Your method, 4metals, sounds better.

Gold Refining Forum 2015

March 21, 2015

Forum - Safety
Topic - Dealing with Waste
As far as PGC is concerned, for safety reasons, I also prefer a porous cup or, on a larger scale, a membrane
tank. Other methods can easily produce fulminating gold.
qst42know

Would garden variety lime work as well as magnesium hydroxide to drop the iron?
It is recommended in a document I had read on Steve's site a while back. The last time I went looking for it I
may have missed it or it had been removed. I think that's where I read it?
Something from the Australian plating industry?

4metals

Regular garden variety lime is calcium oxide but it wouldn't surprise me if a little magnesium oxide was in
there as well because they are both mined products and can be co-mingled. In any event it will raise the pH as
required and if there is enough magnesium oxide in there the precipitate may be coarser than the iron dropped
with caustic. I'd say try it, you may need a little heavier agitation than a aquarium bubbler will provide to mix
it in. You could always use milk of magnesia, that is nothing more than a slurry of magnesium oxide in water.
Magnesium oxide is very difficult to get in less than ton quantities so by all means try it and let us know how
it settles.

qst42know

About the copper sludge, better to leave it acidic? Or treat it with lye, soda ash, or lime before drying?
Anyway I checked the bag of lime I have, the analysis is 46.5% calcium oxide, and 32% magnesium oxide.
Last edited by qst42know on April 27th, 2009, 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

4metals

Very good to know that the mag ox content is that high in run of the mill garden lime. It may be a great
alternative because it is readily available and inexpensive. With any luck it will filter out well.
The copper sludge is just rinsed with water and dried, when you have a few pounds it can be refined for
values.

qst42know

This I find surprising, if there is an easy way, or you know an outfit that does this, please do tell. Harold had
mentioned he had 2 drums of copper he couldn't give away when he sold his refinery.
I have 2 gallons of acid neutralized with lime. I don't have a PH meter so after it quit fizzing I added about 2
cups more lime. I'll let you know how it turns out.
A small amount of PMs were dropped from this batch of waste. I'll test and process it as soon as I get a
chance.

qst42know

All of what I have read on this forum indicates recovering this copper is not practical because of flux and fuel
costs.
However I had a thought. Would a collector such as scrap zinc improve the cost of this recovery? As scrap
brass? Reducing the melt temp and perhaps the flux requirements?
I don't have a furnace or foundry to test this but thought I'd put it out there anyway. Any thoughts anyone?

4metals

I've posted this method as a means of waste treatment for the spent acids. The precipitate from the first drop,
when you added the copper bar, theoretically will have any missed PM's in it, it is collected, and when you
have enough, roasted and refined. The copper is dropped when you add the iron to the solution that has been
raised to a pH of 2.5. The copper as a solid is much less of a waste hazard than it was digested in acid and that
is why it is dropped out of solution. Melting the copper into a bar may or may not be cost effective, I don't
know. That is not the primary reason for dropping it out.
When I said the copper sludge, it would have been more clear if I'd said the sludge dropped from adding the

Gold Refining Forum 2015

March 21, 2015

Forum - Safety
Topic - Dealing with Waste
When I said the copper sludge, it would have been more clear if I'd said the sludge dropped from adding the
copper bar. The copper is still in the acid when this sludge drops. Sorry for the confusion.
qst42know

Fair enough. I had been going directly to iron for dropping my wastes. The traces of PMs I missed were
simply lost. Thanks for the copper first trick. Though the amount of PMs is small I had thought I was careful
with these 2 gallons of waste while some was recovered so that's pretty cool.
Still if you think of a way to profit from the copper leftovers dropped with iron I'd be glad to hear it.

Harold_V

My competitor at the time I was refining was Cascade Refining. If memory serves, the scrap yard I did
business with told me that they had been buying his copper that he had been recovering electrolytically. I had
intended to do so myself, but I was so busy I didn't have time to mess with the process. I would suggest that
you explore the possibility----for in the long run, you'll have copper to sell, and copper to use for silver
recovery. I think it's worth the effort, assuming you have some idle time. I would certainly explore the
possibility myself if I was still refining today.
Harold

4metals

I'm sure the copper could be melted because the copper produced in mining operations is often reduced from
solutions with iron, then cast into anodes and electrolytically refined. A strong reducing flux should do the
trick, I've used cryolite for really difficult melts, tough on crucibles but tougher on oxides.

4metals

Q2Know,
You mentioned you don't have a pH meter, well some of these reactions are pH dependent and a meter would
help. Since we all have computers, there is a unit out there called a pH Turtle which plugs into a computer and
is a fantastic pH meter. Costs about $110. Just Google pH Turtle and it will come up.

Harold_V

I melted enough of the material to learn that it isn't profitable on a small scale. The time and expense it takes,
coupled with the damage done to the crucible, render it a losing proposition.
Kennecott Copper is one of the largest copper producers in the world. They have operated an open pit mine in
what was once Bingham Canyon for over 100 years. The operation is huge, so large that the mountain that
once made Bingham a canyon is now gone, a huge hole in the ground. This operation was my neighbor. They
run a precipitation plant and recover copper with scrap steel. I've actually stood inside one of their furnaces, a
huge reverberatory unit that had been shut down to be relined. They can process the material economically
because of the sheer volume and balance of materials that are charged to the furnaces. I have serious doubts if
that could be accomplished in a home refinery without sustaining losses far greater than the value of the
recovered copper.
When I closed the doors on my humble refinery, I ended up hauling two 55 gallon drums of copper, recovered
with scrap steel, to the land fill. In spite of considerable effort, I couldn't find a buyer-----and was totally
ignored by Kennecott when I offered to deliver it free of charge to their facility, where it could be put in the
pipeline.
It is for the above reasons that I suggest the home refiner attempt recovery electrolytically, where the copper
has a chance of being deposited in a relatively pure state, perhaps even nodular in form. That would be
acceptable in recycle centers, unlike the sponge that is typically recovered on scrap steel.
Harold

metatp

I have a question about dropping copper with iron after filtering the silver cement. While experimenting with
small batches, I used iron nails to drop the copper. They seemed to work ok. Now that I have processed a
number of batches of silver using copper to cement the silver, I have a bucket of copper nitrate. I am using an

Gold Refining Forum 2015

March 21, 2015

Forum - Safety
Topic - Dealing with Waste
old lawn mower blade to drop the copper, but it is not working very well. Is there a specific iron that is best to
use? Maybe the lawn mower blade is a steel alloy that doesn't work as well.
Thanks for your advise.
Tom
Oz

Low carbon iron works best (think soft iron) as to avoid carbon residues and speed the process. Also stay away
from any form of stainless.

rewalston
4metals wrote:
Waste treatment for the small refiner.
.......clear liquid to discard.

4metals, you stated in the post to syphon the clear liquid to discard. My question, for discarding, would this
clear liquid now be safe enough to just pour down the drain or by whatever means...street, storm drains, etc.
Rusty
glorycloud

I believe you still need to bring the PH level to 7 before you can put
your clear liquid with no heavy metals down the drain.

metatp

Well the lawn mower blade is now starting to work. It took about a week to really start working. Maybe the
surface was treated or something. I now also have an iron rod.

4metals

When the iron is finished displacing the base metals all that is left in solution is iron. The iron drops out at a
pH of 3 to 3.5 leaving the solution barren of metals. The pH will have to be raised to around 7 before
discharging it. I have used this procedure in more than 1 refinery and have tested the water before discharging
for metals and never had an issue. Today most municipalities have standards for discharging water to ground
or sewer, it is wise to know what the governing standards are and have a typical batch of waste tested by a lab
using an Atomic Absorption Spec. just to be sure.

lazersteve
HTPatch wrote:
, I have a bucket of copper nitrate

Patch,
I save my copper nitrate to use as an electrolyte for sterling silver. Dilute/concentrate the copper nitrate
solution to 6M (moles per liter) or less and use a graphite cathode and anode. Plate out the copper sponge until
the solution is an very light blue color and then switch out the positive lead with a sterling silver one. Bag the
anode to catch and PGMs or gold that may have made it into your sterling scrap (ie: gold or rhodium plating).
The copper will plate out as a moss. Periodically you will need to dip out the moss so it does not fall off the
cathode and end up in the solution. The silver will saturated the solution and remain in the bottom of the cell
Gold Refining Forum 2015

March 21, 2015

Forum - Safety
Topic - Dealing with Waste
or in solution.
You can also dehydrate the copper nitrate solution and decompose it into NO2 and Copper oxide at relatively
low temperatures (less than 150C). The NO2 can be bubbled into water to form nitric acid or into a basic
solution to form sodium nitrate which can be used in poor man's AR or nitric.
Steve
metatp

Thanks for the info Steve.


I am not ready to do many of the stuff you suggested yet, I am still very new and have not considered cells yet.
My silver was all from silver epoxy and not sterling (yet). I do have a batch of about 1200g of silver being
cemented with copper right now. if i want to save the copper nitrate for possible use later, what can I store it
in? I do have an empty 2 liter clear glass bottle that the Nitric acid came in. Will that work?
Regards,
Tom

lazersteve

Tom,
You can slowly evaporate of the water at low heat (less than 100C) until the copper nitrate forms beautiful
blue crystals. Once all the liquid is driven off you can store the crystals very easily in a stoppered bottle.
Steve

The Moderators

The moderators would like to thank all of the members that contributed to the original thread that this
document was based on, as well as those that asked questions showing what was missing. Because of the extra
length and interest in this thread we have created the above, consolidated version making for an easier read.
We encourage all members to read, comment, and ask questions in the original thread found in the Safety
Section, named Dealing with Waste.
The Library threads should not be considered to constitute a complete education. Instead, they're more like
reading a single book on the subject of recovery and refining. There is so much more information on the
forum, and it is impossible to include it all in these condensed threads. Members are strongly encouraged to
read the rest of the forum to round out their education.

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March 21, 2015

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