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OngKengSen'embarrassed'talkingaboutSingaporeinfrontofinternationalartists
ByBharatiJagdish(/action/news/storiesby/storiesby/678458/storiesby.do?sortBy=latest&bylineId=1923960&pageNum=0) Posted24Oct201512:24

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DirectoroftheSingaporeInternationalFestivalofArtsOngKengSen(Photo:JeannieHo)

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SINGAPORE:TheatreveterananddirectoroftheSingaporeInternationalFestivalofArts,OngKengSenhasbeen,andstillisdeeplyinvolvedinthe
localartsscene,butheishighlycritical,evenquestioning,ifwetrulyhaveaviableartsscenehere.

Onghasbeenanartistprobablysincehewasachildvolunteeringfordramaclubsallthroughoutschool.

Hedidallthisinspiteofthefactthathisfatherthreatenedtodisownhimifhemadetheartshisfulltimecareer.Whenhisparentssawthathewas
doingwell,thathisworkreceivednationalandsubsequentlyinternationalrecognition,theychangedtheirmind.

HespoketoBharatiJagdish"OnTheRecord",andtalksaboutatimewhenhehadtocensoranotherartistinspiteofbeingagainstcensorshiphimself,
whyhecontinuestoworkinSingaporeinspiteofhisfrustrations,andwhyhehasmadethishislifeswork.

OngKengSen:Ithinkthatwehavetostillaskourselveseveryday,"Arewestillhuman?"Ithinkthatveryoftenwehavebecomemachines,andthere
aresomanylayerspreventingusfrombeingourselves.Andmoreandmore,thiskindofsocialconditioningisreallyinhibitinganindividualhuman
perspective.I'minspiredbystilltryingtobeahumanbeing,ahumanperson,andtobeabletoreachouttoanotherhumanbeing.Ithinkthatthearts
remindsofthat.Icanstillreachouttosomebodyhugaperson,orholdapersonbecauseofanimmediatefeeling,andnottoholdback.

Bharati:IsSingaporetooutilitarianasocietytoappreciatethatstandpoint,tocreatetrulypassionateartists?

Ong:IthinkthewayourGovernmenthascreatedSingaporeistheyhavereallyentrenchedcertainperspectives.I'llgiveyouanexample.Ihadayoung
persononcesaytomethatshewouldn'ttakeliterature,becauseliteratureissubjectiveandsoyoucannotget100percent,whileifyoustudyscience
ormath,youwillbeabletoscore100percent.Andthesubjectivityofliteraturemeantthatyoumayactuallyloseoutinthepointsystemintheend.And
 soIwasvery,veryshockedbythis.Itshowshoweventheyoungpersonisalreadyverypractical,andthisisa1516yearold.Ibelievethatthis
happenedinsocietybecausetheGovernmenthasalreadycreatedsuchastructurethatitsbecomeendemic.Sonow,evenifyoubackpedal,itdoesn't
meananything.

Bharati:Butinfact,intheEducationMinistrynow,we'vegotnewpeopleatthehelmandtheActingEducationMinister,OngYeKung,justrecently
talkedabouthowtheeducationsystemshouldallowpeoplethespaceandgivethemopportunitiestopursuetheirpassions,andIknowyoujustsaid
thatbackpedallingmaynotworkatthispoint,butwouldyouleaveyourselfopentotheideathatmaybeinagenerationortwo,wecouldactuallystart
toseerealchange?

Ong:Yeah,butIthinkSingaporeisacountrythatisalways"twostepsforward,threestepsback".We'reactuallydancingonthespot.Ifeellikethese
policiesthereisoneperson,oneminister,onecivilservantwhosayssomethingbutinthelongrun,theotherstructuresinsocietywillactuallyensure
thatthesestatements,"followyourpassion",reallydon'twork.

Bharati:Whatpreciselydoyouenvisagethwartingthisefforttomoveahead,intermsoffollowingone'spassions?

Ong:BecauseIfeellike...let'ssayevenineducation,ifyoudecidetofollowyourpassion,atacertainpoint,becauseSingaporeissoexpensivetolive
in,manypeopleareafraidtobefreelancers.Ithinkthattheywouldjustthenfallintotherouteoftryingtoearnaliving.Let'ssaytheywenttoSOTA,but
intheend,becauseoftherealitiesofSingaporebeingsoexpensiveyouwouldn'tdaretoreallygointotheartsasafulltimecareer.Thisisreality,
thateventhoughyouwanttofollowyourpassion,therestofthesocietyisconstructedinacertainway.

Bharati:Yourewellestablishednowandgetalotofinternationalworktoo,butinspiteofthefactthateveninthepast,therewasnomoneyinthearts,
youdidit.Youcommittedyourselftoafulltimeartscareer.Howisitthatyoumanagedtoovercometheseconstructsandfollowyourdesiretomakethe
artsafulltimecareer?

Ong:Idofeellikeatacertainpointintime,Ididn'treallyworrysomuchaboutmoney,butIthinkthatifIweregraduatingnow,withthecostofliving
beingsohigh,IthinkI'dbequiteworried.

Bharati:Youwouldn'tbeanartistifyouwerejuststartingouttoday?

Ong:Ithinkmaybenot,becauseIwouldthinktwicebeforeIleftmyjob.Iwouldreallythinkaboutit.Alsoitsveryclearnowthatthescenehasnot
reallychangedinthearts.Atthattime,rememberthatin'88,whenIleftlawschoolIgraduatedthingswereprettybuoyant.Itwasn'taverysaturated
scene.Whilerightnowactually,youcanseethatthereissaturationintheartsscene,becausewe'reallpushedtooverproduction.Everycompanyis
doingfourplaysayear,orfourproductionsayear,butthere'snoaudienceoutthere.Thisisacrazythingwherethecountryissaturatedwith
production.We'reproducing,butthere'snodemand.

Bharati:Whyareyouproducingsomuch?

Ong:BecauseourartscouncilissayingthatyouhavetoproducetheseKPIs.Therefore,veryoften,peopleareoverproducingbeyondtheirdesire.If
youaskartistshowmuchtheyreallydesiretomaketheywillsaythatwell,ifIdidn'thavetosupportthecompanywithKPIsandalltheseindicators,I'd
doonlyonework.

Bharati:WhyaretheresomanyKPIs?

Ong:Becausetheartsisusedtoshowproductivity,andIthinkthatthisisoneofthefewcountrieswheretheartsisactuallysupportedbyEDB.
Becausethegovernmenthastoshowthattheyareproductive,includingwhenitcomestothearts.Onlyifyouareproductivethenyougetstatefunding
fromtaxpayers'money.Forme,theartsisnevergoingtobeeconomy.Ithinktheartscanbecomeanindustryatacertainpointwhenthereisamarket,
butnow,we'reputtingthecartbeforethehorse.Sowe'resayingtheremustbeanindustry,eventhoughthere'snoaudience,sothisforme,isover
production.

Bharati:Let'stalkabouttheaudience.IunderstandthattheSingaporeInternationalFestivaloftheArtswentprettywell.FigurestheNACreleasedlast
yearshowedthattheyearbefore,artsattendancewentdownto2009levels.Sotalktomemoreaboutthisissueofnothavingenoughofanaudience.
Whatdoyouthinkisgoingonhere?

Ong:IthinkthatitsdowntotherealitythataudiencesinSingaporedon'twanttopayforthearts.Ifit'sfree,theywillgo.Youareflyingthesepeoplein
fromBrazilandhenceyouhavetosupportthetrooptocometoSingapore,butthere'stheusualgripingthatticketsaretooexpensive.Butit'struethat
performingartsitisaveryintensiveartform,becauseit'saliveperformance.Youcan'tjustshowavideoofadance,youactuallyhaveawhole
companyofdancers.Let'ssay,twelveorfifteendancersonstage,andeverybodyhastobesupported.AndIthinkthatwhenwesaynoaudience,I
thinkthereisanaudienceoutthere,buttheyexpectittobefree.Andthisisunfortunate,becauseyoucannotsupportacompanyof20,30people,
whichistheaveragesizewhenyouthinkofalargescalework.Countingdesigners,aproductionteam,it'sabouttwenty,thirtysalariesthatyouhaveto
payfortwomonthsofahumanindividuals'life.Twomonthsofsalary.Soifyouaddallthatup,it'sveryeasilyS$400,000.Sowhoisgoingtopayforthis
S$400,000?Agrantwillcover25percent.Sointheend,Ithinkthatmostoftheartsgroupsendupdoingbreadandbutterstufftobeabletoafford
theirexistenceasartists.

Bharati:WhydoyouthinkSingaporeansdontwanttopaytoenjoythearts?

Ong:NowtheGovernmentissaying,theartsisimportant,etc,etc.Butitsalreadybeensetthatinlifeyoushoulddothesethings,andartisimportant
whenyoucanaffordit.Ibelievethatthissocietyisstillverytopdown.Andifthegovernmenttrulyputstheirmoneywheretheirmouthis,Ithinkthat
somethingwillhappen.Like,forexample,thiswholemovementnow,this"GotToMove"campaign,right?Wheresuddenly,'topdown',theNationalArts
 Councilhasdecidedthateverybody'sgottomove,andwe'veall'gottodance.Andso,suddenly,contemporarydancehasbecomethelanguageofthe
day.AndIfeelthatwillreallychangethescene,butforafewyears.Itthendependsonthefancyofthegovernment,andtheywillchangeagain,and
soonitwillbesomethingelse.

Bharati:Butisntitalsoabouttheinternationalaudience?

Ong:Yeah,butIthinkthat'schanged,becauseinaway,IfeelthatthegovernmentislessconcernedaboutprovingthatSingaporeisaglobalcity.Right
now,artsisinstrumentalisedinSingapore.It'sinstrumentalisedinthesensethat,okay,whatisthevalueofarts.RenaissanceCitywasatatime
whenSingaporewasthinkingaboutpushingtheartsouttoprojectSingaporeasaglobalcity.Andveryrecently,thatspeakthatlanguageorthat
speakchangedbecausetherewasapapertosaythatinSingapore,wehavealotofforeignersrightnowpopulationgrowthhasexplodedsothe
artshavetobeusedforbondingpurposes.So,therefore,youcanseethattheartssuddenlybecameinstrumentalisedtodevelopcommunity,andfor
meit'snevergoingtochangeifthegovernmentcontinuestoinstrumentalisethearts,andnotallowtheartstoexistforitself.

IfyoulookatacountrylikeIndonesia,theaverageIndonesianwouldbesaidtobepoor.Yetthewaytheyfeelaboutartartbeingapartoffestivity,art
beingapartofritual,artbeingapartofexpressingyourself,howyoudress,howyoubeautifyyourhomelikeinBali.Artissoevidentineverydaylife,
andIfeelthatthisisnotthecaseinSingapore.

InSingapore,theartsisseentobesomethingwhichisexternaltoeverydaylife.WhatIsaidearlierusingtheartstobondpeopleisthebigthing.I
findthatquiteinsidiousinSingapore,thatbasicallythereisnoartifartisnotuseful.Iftheartisnotuseful,theywillnotsupportit.Theywillthenjustsay
thatwell,youknow,doitonyourown,youknow.Findthesupportfromthepublic,yourpublic,whocomesforyourshows.

Bharati:ButthatsoundsfairtheGovernmentsupports,withtaxpayersmoney,worksthatfulfillnationalgoals,andartistsperhapsneedtofindother
waysofgettingsupportforworksthatareartsforartssake.Ifyoulookatartistsinothercountries,theyhavetoworkhardforcorporatefundingand
thingslikethataswell.

Ong:Andrightnow,wearealsoworkinghardforcorporatefunding,butitsjustthatit'sveryclearinSingaporethatifit'snottopdown,nothing'sgoing
tomove,becauseit'sbecomeendemicinthissociety,SoIdofeellikethateverybodyisworkingtheirbuttsofftoactuallymaintaintheircompanyfor
let'ssay,fourshows.They'redoingticketsales,they'regoingoutforsponsorship,andI'mverysurethatmostcompaniestrytospendwhattheycan
affordtospend.ButIfeelthatwearerunningonatrack,andbasically,thespeedofthetreadmillisincreasing,butwe'rejustwearingourselvesdown.

Bharati:Soifitwereuptoyou,howwouldyoudoitenableSingaporeansandcorporatesponsorstoo,toseethevalueofartsforartssakeandto
supportit?

Ong:Thereisnowayinwhichthesystemcanchangeiftheeconomyisstackedagainstit.Itendtobequitepessimistic.Ithinkthatweareall
pretendingthatanartsscenecanexistinSingaporewhenitdoesn'twhenthere'snoviability.

Bharati:Sowhatwouldyousuggestthen?Tearitalldown?MakeSingaporeanartistsgooverseasandpractice?

Ong:No,no,nofirstofall,Ibelievethatyoucanmakeartwithverylittlemoneyifthereisadesire.ButthereisverylittledesireinSingapore.So,
wheneverIhearanartistsaying,wellifIgetthisgrant,I'lldoit.Formethatsnotatruepassion,it'snotatruedesire.I'mcompletelywiththisbelief
thatSingaporeanshavenodesireandwearereallymachinesworking.Andwearewoundupinacertainway.Ithinkforexample,theartsinSingapore
hasahardtimebecausepeoplewanttojustseetheartsassomewheretorelax.Butitcannotbe.Theartsismeanttobeprovocative,theartsistalking
aboutissuesinsociety.

Bharati:Soifyouhadtodoitonyourown,tocreateadesireinpeopletocreatetheirownart,tocreateadesireinpeopletowanttobeprovokedby
art,howwouldyoudoitatthisstage?

Ong:Ithinkthatyoureallyhavetobeginwithinstallingacurriculumofimagination.Notjustacurriculumofrightorwrong.Ifeelthatthat'svery
important,becauseIremembermyselfasachildin1971volunteeringtododramaclub.WhenIputupmyhandandjoinedthedramaclub,Iwasn't
thinkingofoh,Ineedtogetagradeforthis.Whileinlateryears,ECAbegan,andyouneededtohavecertainpoints,andthenthiswouldhelpyouto
gointothisschool,orthatschooloruniversity.Ithinkthatit'sreallyaboutdesire,whichyoudon'tsenseasachild.SoIdobelievethatitreallybeginsin
theschool,andIthinkthatitbeginsinamorebasicwaythanjusthavingassemblyplays.It'snotaboutassemblyplays.It'sabouthavingacurriculum
whichreallyallowsustoexpressourselves.Sothat'soneway.SoIwoulddefinitelystartinaschool.Icamefromafamilythatdidnotseetheartsas
veryimportant.Therewasnoartistinthefamilybeforebutitwasreallycompletelyinculcatedfromschool.

Bharati:Andthatwouldmorelikelyorganicallycreateanenvironmentwhereartisn'tinstrumentalised,andbecomesmoreappreciatedforitsown
sake?

Ong:IdofeelthattheGovernment,asitisrightnow,isveryconcernedaboutusingeverythingtheycantocontinuetostayasthemainpartyof
Singapore.Andtherefore...I'msuspicious.I'msuspiciouswhentheysay"Oh,let'shavethis,let'shavemorecreativity",whataretheysayingactually?I
justfeelthatit'sakindofawayofdefendingthefortress,thatthere'snotmuchtruthintheideaofhavingtheartsinsociety,becauseit'sjustawayto
keeptheelitehappy.It'saplaypenwhereyouplayinacorneroftheroom.

Bharati:You'vesaidalotofthingsaboutcivilservantsovertheyears.Infact,inaninterviewpublishedontheInternationalFestivalofArtsblog,you
actuallymentionedthatinyourjobasfestivaldirector,yourealisedthatalotofgovernmentandcivilservantsdon'tbelieveinthearts,eventhough
they'reworkinginthisfield,andtheydon'tseemtolovethearts.Butyoustillhavetoworkwiththesecivilservants.Sohowdoyoureconcilethetwo?
Thewayyoufeelaboutthemandwhattheythink,yethavingtoworkwiththemtobringtheartstothepeople?
 Ong:Ithinkthatthere'salotoffearinthiscountry.IrememberdirectingaplaybyTanTarnHow,itwascalledFearofWriting,whereafearstartsto
control,ortogovernhowyouact.AndIthinkthatthereisafearoffailure,definitely,andthere'safearthatit'llbetoorisque,there'llbeafearthatyour
knucklesarerapped,andsoinaway,Ithinkthatthecivilservantsplayvery,verycarefully.

Andtheonlywayofworkingwithcivilservantsisactuallythentoexpandtheboundaries,expandtheborders.SoIthinkthatthismoveofhavingthe
festivalbeingrunbyanartist,Ithinkthisisonewayinwhichyoucanactuallymovethebordersabitmore.WhenIwasinvitedtocomebackfromNew
Yorktorunthefestival,IthinkthatcentralinmyheadwasthatsomebodysaidtomeWell,artistsarealwayscomplainingthatit'snotworking,sodo
somethingaboutit.Comebackandrunthefestival.SoIthinkthat'ssomethingquiteimportantthatyoudohavetogetyourhandsdirtyandactually
trytoreconstructandtrytoreclaimsomeofthatspace.

Bharati:Whatfearsdoyouthinkaregoverningcivilservantsthathavefilteredintothissceneaswell?

Ong:Ithinkthatyoucanseehowcivilservantsarejustvery,veryafraidthatwhatevertheydowilltiltthebalance.Sotheytrytomaintaintheboat,
right?IthinkitwasverytellingthatwhentheFestivalwasrunbycivilservantsbefore,theFestivaldidn'thavetogothroughcensorship.Butassoonas
theFestivalbecameindependent,thefirstyeartheyforgotaboutus.Butthenthesecondyear,whichwasthisFestival,inDecemberlastyear,wewere
toldthatwe'dhavetogothroughthecensorshipmechanism.Wehavetoapplyforpermits,etc,etc.

Bharati:WhydoyoustillcontinuetoworkinSingaporewhenyouaresoagainsttheconditionshere?

Ong:BecauseIthinkthatwhatyouhavetodoistrytotransformtheparadigm,unlessyousayokay,Idon'twanttobeSingaporean.Idon'tneedtobe
here,Idon'twanttobehere,Ileave.ButIthinkthatyouhavetochallengetheseborders.Youhavetotakeonthesemantlestothentrytotransform
thewayofthinking.Ithinkthatit'simportanttobebothinsideandoutsideofthesystem.Idofeellikethatthisgovernmenthascreatedapeoplewho
wouldcensorotherpeople,youknow.Ratherthantobelievethatindemocracy,everybodymustbefree.Soyouknow,sometimesyoucanseethatin
Facebookhowwe,asSingaporeansactuallytrytocensorothersinFacebookifsomeonedisagreeswithus.AndIthinkthatit'sveryimportanttoleta
disagreementoccur,andnottobeafraidofthat.

Bharati:Butthishappenseverywhere,notjustinSingapore,therewillbesomepeoplewhowillcondemnanotherpersonsviewpoint.

Ong:Ifeelthatpeoplearelikekids,squabblingoversomething,andratherthanjustreasoningthingsout,inaveryargumentativeway,inaverysound
way.It'snotaboutyou'rerightorI'mwrong,butlet'sargueaboutit.AndIthinkthat'ssomethingwhichSingaporeansarenotreallyabletodo,because
theyaresousedtobeingtoldthat"thisisblack,orthisiswhitethisisallowed,thisisnotallowed."Inaway,it'scomplementaryinthesensethatthe
Governmentdoesnottrustthepublic,becausealsothepublichasbeenmollycoddled.Nowadays,IthinkeveniftheGovernmentstepsback,the
censorshipsystemwillkickintoplace.Becauseyouwouldhavethereligiousright,sayingcertainthings,let'ssay,aboutsinglemothers.

Immediately,therewillbeawaveagainstsinglemothers.AndIthinkthatthisisveryclearformenow,thatevenwhenthegovernmentstepsback,the
censorshipmechanismwouldworkinSingapore.Becauseweareallsousedtousingcensorshipasawaytonipdissent,evenasaSingaporeans.If
somebodydisagreeswithus,wewouldtrytomakesurethatdisagreementdoesnotgointothepublicspace.SoIthinkthatSingaporeanshavereally
beencreatedbythePAP,andunfortunately,becausetherewasamonoparty,foraverylongtime,thisisawayinwhichwe'vegrownup.

Bharati:Yousaidweshouldntbeafraidofdisagreement.

Ong:Yes,yes.Andthechaos,andalsotheuncertainty,andjusttobelievethatgoodsensewillprevail.

Bharati:Whyareyousooptimisticthatgoodsensewillprevail?Goodsensemaynotprevail.

Ong:Ithinkthatwecannot,wecannotensurethatourchildisforeversafe.Weneedtoletthechildgrowup.Weneedtoletthechildgothrough
whateverneedstohappen,tofall,tocollapse.AndIthinkthatthisoverprotectivenessisabigproblem.Ifwecontinuetocensorallthesethingsfrom
happening,we'regoingtobecomealobotomisedsociety.Weshouldnotbeginfromdistrust,butshouldbelievethattheseareoptionstoabetter
Singaporeandtoallowtheseoptionstoplayout.Everybodywantstogettheirway,butIthinkthatmostpeoplewouldfightforsociety,fightforcertain
rights,butatacertainpoint,goodcommonsensestepsin,becausethere'snopointgettingasociety,whichiscompletelyravaged.ButIdon'tthinkthat
weshouldbeafraidofdisagreement.

Bharati:WhodoyouthinkshouldbeinchargeofgrowingtheartsinSingapore?Ifnotcivilservants,whoshouldbespearheadingthis,orhowshould
thatdynamicbebalancedinordertocreatethebestpossibleenvironment?

Ong:Ithinkthattheartsshouldbespearheadedbytheartists.Justlike,forexample,youwouldneverinyourrightsenseofmindsaythatwell,the
medicalprofessionshouldberunbysomeonewho'snotadoctor.Sowhatmakestheartsprofessionanydifferent?

Bharati:Butofcourseyou'llstillneedtheGovernmenttostepin.Governmentgrantsareamajorpartofallthisaswell,right?

Ong:Yesofcourse,butthingisthatthereisadifferencebetweenfundingandbetween

Bharati:Interferingincontent.

Ong:Yes,Ithinkthat'sveryclear.Becauseforexample,inlegalsystems,thereareadministrators,therearecivilservants.They'retheretoprovidethe
support.Ithinkthenaturaldefinitionofthecivilserviceisthattheyaremeanttobeaneutralservicethatprovidesthesupportforpoliticians,butthey
areactuallywithoutanypoliticalaffinity.Sointhesameway,Ithinkthecivilservicewhoaresupportingtheartssceneshouldreallybepeoplewhoare
supportingtheartsscene,andnotmakingartsdecisions.

Bharati:Let'stalkaboutselfcensorship.Doyourememberatimewhenyouhadtodoit,whenitfeltparticularlybad?
 Ong:In2014,whenthefestivalfirstbegan,weinvitedZaneleMuholiwhoisanLGBTadvocatefromSouthAfrica,andweweretoldbytheNationalArts
Council,Well,youshouldmakesurethattheexhibitiondoesn'tgooverboard."

Ifeltquitenegativeaboutmyjob,becauseIhadtoensure,withZanele,thatwhateverispossiblyinflammatoryshouldnotbestatedwithwords,thatwe
shouldjustletthephotographsspeak,andthatwasthekindofartisticdecisionthatIhadtomake,thatwewon'tcensor.We'llletthephotographs
speak,butlet'slookatthewalltext,andbecarefulwithwhatyouaresayinginthewalltext.Ifeltquiteshittyaboutthat,thatasanartist,Ihadtodothat
toanotherartist.Andveryoften,IthinkthatI'membarrassedinfrontofinternationalartists,whenwetalkaboutSingapore,becauseitsoundsvery
draconian,anditsoundshorrible.Sometimes,Iwouldmeetotherartistsandtheywillsaythat,"Well,wecan'tperformthisinSingapore,because
there'snudityinit."

Inmyroleasamediator,Iwouldhavetosaythat,No,IthinkthatyouhavetocometoSingapore.AndIdon'tthinkthatnuditybyitself,isresultingin
censorshipanymore.Ithinkit'sreallyabouttakingtherisk,andreallyaboutpushingtheboundary,becauseIbelievethatwecareabouttheaudience.
Obviously,theartistsaretherebecausethey'reinvolvedinengagingtheaudienceinsomeway.Wecareabouthavingadialoguewithindividuals,but
wearenotpoliticians.

Bharati:Thethingaboutcensorshipisthatoften,theauthoritiesusethisasthejustification:"Singaporesocietyisnotreadyforthisyet.Itsagainstour
values."Whatgoesthroughyourmindwhenyouhearthis?

Ong:Ithinkthatit'sjustawayofcontrol,right?It'saformofcontrolthat'sbecomeverystronginneoliberalsocietiesinthelasttwodecades,Iwould
say,since9/11.Surveillancehassteppedup,andit'sjustifiedonthebasisofsafety,offightingterrorism,andIthinkinthesamewaythatcensorshipis
justified.Justifiedonthebasisthatit'sforthegoodofsociety.

Theartsisanaturalombudsmanforsociety,wherethesevapours,dissentingvoices,areallowedtojustbeaired.IfSingaporeissobottledup,Ifeel
there'snospacetoairanydissent,andwiththat,Idon'tthinktheartshavethespacetobesomethingelseapartfromentertainment.IbelievethatI've
givenmylifetoworthycause,andIdon'tthinkthatIwouldliketogivemylifetojustbeanentertainer.Ididn'tentertheartstobeanentertainer,
becauseIcanjustbeanentertainerwithoutbeinganartist.

Bharati:Youalludedtothisearlieraswell.Whyshouldntitbeentertainingandrelaxingattimestoo?Youhavebeenaccusedinthepastof
intellectualisingeverything.Whataboutaccessibility?

Ong:Ithinkthatthereisaspaceforallkindsofarts,butIbelievethatweshouldencouragetheartstobeacriticalspace.Bydressingtheartsupas
icing,assweeticingontopofsocietythat'snothowIthinktheartsshouldbesupported.IthinkthatsomeofthestatementsI'veheard,wherethe
grantsschemeisnowusedtocensortheartsgroups,wheresometimesit'sassimpleas,"Oh,youshouldnotbitethehandthatfeedsyou."Ithinkthat
that'snonsensebecausetome,youshouldnotspeaklikethisasacivilservice,becausethisishowtheartsis.

Bharati:Don'tyouthinktheauthoritieshaveapointwhentheyimplyyoushouldntbitethehandthatfeedsyou?WhyshouldaGovernmentagency
givemoneyandsupporttosomethingthatisagainstwhattheGovernmentbelievesarenationalvalues?

Ong:Becauseit'snottheirmoney.It'sourmoney.

Bharati:Taxpayersmoney.

Ong:Yes.IthinkthatwehavetobeawarethatthisisnotNAC'smoney.IfNACwasgivingtheirmoney,thenIbelievethatweshouldnottakethe
money.

Bharati:Andiftheysay,iftheagenciesinsist,"ThemajorityofSingaporeansarenotreadyforthis."Whyshouldtheyusetaxpayers'moneytofund
somethingthattheyfeelthemajorityofSingaporeansarenotreadyfor?Thatstheirargument.

Ong:ThatsthevoiceofGovernment,orthecivilservicesayingthatSingaporeansarenotready.HavewehadthereferendumaboutSingaporeansnot
beingready?Andactually,theclosestwecametoareferendumwas377A,wheretherewasvoting,anditshowedthattherewereequal,broadlyequal
numbers.Soit'snotrighttosaythatSingaporeansarenotready,becauseifSingaporeanswerenotready,youwouldhave,let'ssay,maybeavoteof
75percentto25percent.

Bharati:Thiswasanonlinepoll?

Ong:Yeah,thiswasanonlinepollof377A.

Bharati:You'vementioned377Aseveraltimes,LGBTissues.HowdoesitfeeltobeyouinSingapore?Yoursexualorientation.

Ong:Ibelievethatoursexualorientationisprivate,andIbelievethatthereisnoneedforcensorshipbecauseanykindofillegalactwillbecaughtby
othersectionsofthePenalCode.Inthesameway,Ibelieveverymuchthatifyourepealed377A,therewillbenoobsceneactinpublic,becausethere
areothersortsoflawwhichwillcatchthiskindofobsceneact.

Bharati:Inpublic.

Ong:Inpublic.Ibelievethatyourlife,yourdesires,yoursexualorientationisreallyaprivateconcern.Bothsidesshouldairtheirbeliefs,weshouldn't
censortheirreligiousright,fromdoingwhattheywanttodo,andweshouldn'tcensorLGBTindividualsfromdoingwhattheywanttodo.Inthepublic
interest,whichisaconstantphrase,whichappearsthroughouttheconstitution.

Everythingispossible,unlessit'sagainstpublicinterest.Butwho'sthepublic?IthinkthatSingapore,thegovernmenthastowakeuptothefactthat
Singaporehasmanypublics.It'snotonepublic.Howdoyouhonourthedifferentpublics?
 Bharati:Onecouldsaythatthemajoritypublicwins.

Ong:Yes,majoritywins,butIthinkthattheminorityisalsoveryimportant.Idon'tthinkthatwewanttobecomethatsortofsocietywhereeverythingis
decidedbythemajority.Basicallyitwillbecomewhichactuallydoesoccurlet'ssayinFacebook.Sometimespeoplesaysomethinglike,"ifyoudon't
likeit,thenyoushouldleave."Ithinkthat'sareallyoutrageousstatement,butatthesametimeIfeellike,well,thispersonwhosaysthisonFacebookis
alsoexpressinghisorheropinion.Ithinkthatthiswholethinghastobemoreseriouslycritiqued.Assoonasthere'sonepublicforsomething,there's
alsoapublicagainstsomething.

Bharati:Sotheminorityopinionsneedtoberespectedtoo.

Ong:Yes,correct,andthat'stherole,Ithink,oftheGovernment,buttheGovernmentrightnowisonlyconcernedaboutvotes.

Bharati:Isntthatnaturalthough?Anypoliticalpartywouldbe,anypoliticalestablishmentwouldbe.Somemightsayitscivilsocietysjobandthe
artistsjobtofightforotherrights.Itsparforthecourse.

Ong:Yes,Imean,Ifeellikeartistsarenotnecessarilypeopleinvolvedincivilaction,youknow,incivicsociety.Ithinkartistsareexpressingcertain
views,andIthinkthatsometimespeoplewouldsaythat,"Whoareyoutosaythesethings?Whoareyoutohavethisplatform?Justbecauseyouare
anartist,youhavethisplatform."AndIthinkthatthat'skindofridiculous,becauseyoucanbeanybody,andyoucanfindyourplatform.Youcanfind
yourplatforminforumletters,oryoucanfindyourplatforminFacebook.

Inmypositionasafestivaldirector,IthinkthatI'vestoodupagainstcensorship,I'vesaidwhatI'vehadtosaypublicly,becausethereisan
accountabilitytothepublic,soifwe'regettingourpermitstwodaysbeforeashow,Ithinkthepublichastobeawarethat,actually,it'sasituationwhere
theirrightsasaconsumerareactuallycompletelygovernedbytheMDA,who'sgivingoutapermit,and2daysbeforeaperformance,they'llsaythat,
"Thisworkcannotbeperformed."Ithinkthatwehavetobeverymuchmoreaware,asaFestival,ofwhatourresponsibilityistothepublic.

Bharati:Youexpresssomedoubtastowhether,whentheGovernmentagenciessays,"Thepublicisn'treadyforthis",whetherthatisindeeda
reflectionoftruepublicsentiment.Howdoyouyourselfthencalibratewhatwouldbeofservicetothepublic,andinthepublicinterest?

Ong:Ithinkthatthewaytocalibrate,whichI'veusedasaFestivalDirector,isnottoassumethatthepublicisnotready.Mymainroleisactuallytoput
workouttherewhichwouldchallengethepublic,ratherthanbyfirstsayingthatthepublic'snotready,andhenceI'vemovedthistotheside,Idon't
producethis,orIdon'tpresentthat.Ithinkthatveryoften,asadecisionmaker,youhavetoworkthroughtrialanderror.Ithinkthatyoushouldnever
assumethatyouknowwhattheaudiencewants,becauseyoudon'tknowwhattheaudiencewants,because,inaway,theaudienceisconstantly
changing.Therearenewaudiences,therearemaybeoldaudiencesthatwouldcomebackinsupportofsomething.

Bharati:Let'stalkaboutsomethingthatyoumentionedearlierTanTarnHow'sFearofWriting.Hehadsaidthatthisplayisaboutthecomplacencyof
theaverageSingaporean,oftheatreaudiencesandpractitioners,becausethereisnodanger,norealchange,enactedbyourworks.However,whichof
yourworks,doyouthink,hasactuallyenactedsomechange?

Ong:IthinkinputtingupFearofWriting,forexample,thatenactedsomechange.Ithinkthattheaudiencewas,forthefirsttime,abletolookatsome
ofthelawsthataffectedourexistenceasanaudience,thatwecanbearrestedbyacensorshipofficialwithoutawarrantofarrest.Ithinkthatmost
Singaporeanswerequiteshockedbywhatwasunveiledinthepiece,becauseyoujusttakeitasanassumptionthatyouaresafeasanaudience,but
actually,you'reneversafe.

Theonlywaywecanmakesomethingsafeisifweallbecomeresponsibleforourownactions,andnotfollowsomebodyelse'slineofresponsibility.But
Idon'twanttobelievethattheartsisaboutanindividualpieceofwork.Ithinkthatit'saboutcontinuedsurvivabilityandsustainability.

Iftheartscontinuedtoexist,thenIthinkthatthere'savoice,whichisspeakingcritically,objectivelyorsubjectivity.Therearemanydifferentsortsof
arts,butIthinkthatthisfearoftheartsbeingsomethingthatwouldopenthefloodgates,it'snotreallytrue.

Bharati:Shouldn'titalsobeaboutopeningthefloodgates,insomesense.

Ong:Yes,Ithinkso,butIthink

Bharati:Byenactingsomesortofchange?

Ong:No,Ithinkthattheartshasaroletoplayinrelationtoopeningupotherpossibilitiestodifferentmembersoftheaudience.Ithinkthatit'salso
about,inaway,thehumanistvalueofart.Thatwhenyouarehearingabout,let'ssay,amarginalcharacter'straumaorturmoil,youbegintounderstand
howtheseindividualslivetheirlives.There'savaliditytothisfeelingand,justbecauseyoudisagreewithher,doesitmeanthatsheshouldbe
censored?Forme,theatreisaspacewherewehearotheropinions,andthat'swhytheatreissoimportant,becauseinthesespaces,whereyouhear
otheropinions,thenyoubegintoactuallyacceptthatthereareotheropinions,andnotjustoneopinion.

Bharati:Towhatextentdoyoufeeltheauthoritiescanaffordtoreleasemoreinformationonthedeliberationsthatgoonbehindcertaincontroversial
decisionstheymakeintermsofcensorship?

Ong:Iwouldliketohavemoretransparency,definitely.Forme,it'snotsomuchaboutgivingthedissentingvoicewhattheywant,butIthinkthatwe
havetoseehowthesedecisionsarebeingmade.Thereisalwaysafearaboutthis,becauseassoonasyouaretransparent,youcanbecritiqued.I
thinkthatwhathappensisthat,veryoften,decisionsaremadeinanopaqueway,sothatyoucannotbecritiqued.

Bharati:WithintheconstraintsoftodaysSingaporeandhowyousaysocietyhasbeenconstructed,howdoyouhopetousetheartstoenactchange
inthisregard?
 Ong:Ithinkthatinthenextyearofthefestival,wehavetoputthetestonartitself.Whatiftheartisnotuseful?Thatmeansthatifartisforart'ssake,if
artisforbeauty,orifartisforminorityinterest,canwestillsupportart?Inthelargersenseoftheword,whatifwelettheartiststrajectory,orindividual's
trajectorybecomeimportant.That'sthestakethatweareat,thatmeansthatwhatiftheartisnotreflectingourhistory,whatiftheartisnotsocial
political,whatiftheartisaboutanindulgentindividual'sperspective?Isthatstillimportant?Ithinkthat'sreallytheburdenthattheArtsFestivalhasto
takeoninitsnextfewyears,whichisthatdowesupportanindividual'strajectory,eventhoughthisindividual'strajectoryisnotusefulforsociety.

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