Carl Rogers Counsels An Individual On Anger - transcript

1977

Carl Rogers This is the second interview with a young man who reports he has Leukemia but is in a state
of remission. In his first interview he realized that the self he had at age seven was a very precious self
and that social expectations caused him to lose it. He also approached the feelings of anger he has felt
about what has been done to himself and to him. But he's not yet expressed his anger. Now, the second
session begins. Okay. We're going to start this morning?

01:50 UNKNOWN I don't know. I -- I was thinking that when we talked earlier about the -- the anger.

02:00 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN I've been thinking a great deal about that.

02:05 Carl Rogers I've thought a lot about what you had to say about that.

UNKNOWN Right. You know, and I'm not sure that, uh, that I really don't want to be angry. You know,
and I'm not sure if anger -- being angry, now, is a part of the process. And I've got to do that but I'd like to
-- I guess, um, my mind, academically or something, you know, something other than emotion or
something would like to tell me that I would like to, uh, to not be angry and to skip over that part if that's
part of the process. You know, but like, I'm not sure I can do that. You know.

02:45 Carl Rogers You might say, don't -- don't get into that. It's strong emotion.

02:50 UNKNOWN For sure. It almost seems like the -- whatever is happening in my environment or
whatever happened in my environment is pulling me into again, the -- that kind of a trap. That kind of a
system that I don't particularly care, you know -- you know, what I mean.

03:10 Carl Rogers I think I get that -- that your mind is taking the place of the system and saying, uh, play
it right. Do the proper thing.

03:20 UNKNOWN Right.

Carl Rogers But some other part of you is saying, yah, but there's some anger there.

03:25 UNKNOWN For sure. For sure.

Carl Rogers It's real anger, right.

UNKNOWN It's almost like in this country, and -- and I've always felt like this. You only have about two
options when you deal with race, you either have to be -- your either a racist or you're an anti-racist. And
that doesn't seem to be the thing that I -- you know, I don't care to be an anti-racist, if you know what I
mean, anymore. Um, and I don't want to be a reflection of any larger society, you know.

03:55 Carl Rogers You'd like to get in touch with what's going on in you not -- not some label or other.

04:00 UNKNOWN For sure. I think that I could probably trust that a lot better than trusting what's
happening or what has happened.

04:10 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN And, um, when I think about that. When I think about all of that, you know, things that we
talked about I think that, um, that's worse than the Leukemia. You know, that may sound very strange or
whatever, but lot of things have been strange since this time and what has happened to me that to start
when I found out that I, you know, was going to die kind of thing.

04:40 Carl Rogers Let me see if I understand that. You feel as though, um, the culture and people and so
have done to you has really caused you more suffering than the Leukemia. Is that what you're saying?

04:55 UNKNOWN I think so. I think so.

Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN And to some extent that -- that is my like, for instance, you know, I don't know what would
happen if I had died or if I would have, whatever but I certainly know what's happening now and what
happened.

05:10 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN You see. And to some extent that kind of Leukemia that kind of deterioration of the body is
the same kind of thing that happened to my mind.

05:20 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN And, um, you know --

05:25 Carl Rogers So really what the culture did to you is give you the cancer of the mind.

05:30 UNKNOWN Yeah. I -- I -- I really want to say that and I really want to, um, I don't believe it. You
know, and I guess that part of me that's -- that's my culture or that's part of the total is saying that it's not
all that good to be angry. You know, because militancy is frowned upon or whatever. And I guess militant
in my sense because it's -- it's just traditionally, you know -- you know, when blacks become angry they're
-- they're not angry, they're militant.

06:00 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN You know.

Carl Rogers I know.

UNKNOWN So --

Carl Rogers Another label.

UNKNOWN Uh-huh. For sure. For sure. For sure. And I can't -- and there's nobody that I can put my
finger on -- that person that started the whole thing. That process, you know, because that would probably
be a lot better for me. You know, then I probably would try to -- to do that person in.

06:25 Carl Rogers Now, if you could -- if you could point on one person, then your rage would be
justified and you could really get after that person.

06:35 UNKNOWN Uh-huh. But how, you know, how do you blame somebody else who is sick. You
know, and I think that people that do that to other people or at least when it was done to me, um, they're
really sick. You know, and here I am, you know, it -- trying to, you know, I don't know, forgiving. I don't
know if I'm sounding confused of whatever, you know, but trying to accept their sickness, you know.

07:05 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN And at the same time, you know, I really haven't had the opportunity letting anybody accept
mine or maybe I haven't given it to them or --

07:10 Carl Rogers Yeah, maybe you haven't given it to them. That's what I sense is going on now, that
you feel there's so many reasons why I really shouldn't be, uh, express my anger. I'll -- I'll talk about all
those reasons.

07:25 UNKNOWN Yeah. For sure. I don't know, really, you know, maybe I'll just be angry one day and
maybe I'll really feel better whenever, you know, and -- I -- what I -- when I smile I, um, you know, I'm
smiling but there's a lot of -- and I'm sure and you know, that. There's a lot of anger there. But it's not my
nature to be angry.

07:55 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN It's not my nature to be angry but I feel angry, you know.

08:05 Carl Rogers Um, and -- so I hear you explain and explaining that it's not my nature to be angry just
I am angry, right now.

08:15 UNKNOWN For sure. For sure and to try to be angry in a productive -- I don't know how you be
angry in a productive way, you know, in terms of -- it's like now, when I respond to people. You know,
when you encounter people, you know, whether it's in the street, whether it's in a professional situation or
whatever. You know, people send out certain messages and no matter what they're saying of whatever
there are certain messages that I'm giving. You know, it's saying that hey, you know, that isn't for me kind
of thing.

08:50 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN You know, and as before, you know, I've liked to work with that and try to communicate
without alienating people of whatever, but now, I'm saying, like that's a bunch of crap.

09:00 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN You know, don't -- don't tell me about the way that I should do it or give me all that
nonverbal stuff about, uh, you saying that I'm okay, but by nonverbally -- verbally saying, really I'm not
okay. You know, I don't want to hear that kind of stuff, anymore.

09:15 Carl Rogers I guess what you're saying, is I also feel quite strongly that I don't want to say it's okay
with me if you're angry here.

09:30 UNKNOWN But I, you know, it's hard to know how to be angry.

Carl Rogers Sure. Sure. I'm not saying you have to be. I'm just saying, it's okay with me.

09:35 UNKNOWN Uh-huh.

Carl Rogers If you feel like being angry, you can be angry.

09:40 UNKNOWN You really believe that?

Carl Rogers I do.

09:45 UNKNOWN Well --

09:50 [sil.]

10:00 UNKNOWN I'm not sure how to respond to that at all. You know, because a part of that anger is all
about the hurt and, you know, maybe if I -- maybe what's happening is if I'm -- if I become angry and I
really let it hang out then I really will see how hurt I am.

10:25 Carl Rogers Uh-huh..

UNKNOWN And, um, you know, that just came to me as you were talking. That, you know, I --

10:35 Carl Rogers Perhaps on a deeper level you're afraid of the hurt you may experience if you let
yourself feel the anger.

10:40 UNKNOWN For sure. Um, this -- you know, I keep getting these blocks. You know, when I come
to something like that, you know, because, you know, to me that's a revelation and I'm not really sure
where that, uh, worse than being angry, I guess, you know. Losing control, maybe.

11:15 Carl Rogers Yeah.

UNKNOWN You know, so --

11:20 [sil.]

11:25 Carl Rogers You really do get that, this -- this realization that maybe what I'm most afraid of is the
hurt that I'm going to experience. Um, it makes it more cautious about whether you should -- you should
or could really let go of the anger.

11:50 UNKNOWN I really know, I think that --

11:55 Carl Rogers It's a risk.

12:00 UNKNOWN Right and I -- you know, I haven't really thought about that before and it's, uh, I guess
I would be. And I really would admit openly that I'm hurt. I -- I said -- that I -- that I've been hurt. And I
think you know that I -- I feel I've been hurt but I -- to really to show that, you know.

12:20 Carl Rogers To show it, I guess to let yourself sort of experience it. I think would be difficult.

12:30 UNKNOWN Yeah. I don't know. It -- it's as scary, I think as the possibility of -- that I had before
more than before about dying. You know.

12:45 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN And maybe, you know, I guess I was really scared because of the symptom, you know,
about not being able to walk and not being able to see and things like that. You know, and having to
depend on somebody, you know. And for God's sake, you know, having to show somebody that I'm hurt.
And how can I trust that to somebody, you know.

13:10 Carl Rogers It's a horribly big risk.

13:15 UNKNOWN Yeah, it is. It seems to be getting bigger and bigger as I talk.

13:20 Carl Rogers Suppose I really expose to somebody the fact that I'm deeply, deeply hurt. That in a
sense would be kind of comparable to dependent on someone who can't walk, or something like that.

13:40 [sil.]

UNKNOWN Right. Yeah. I'd like to say as my -- my condition. It's one way out of it. But that isn't really
acceptable to me, now, because I -- I feel like, I have to express that and I have that hurt or whatever, and
I can say that you know, and I know that right now and here that I'm saying that and when I say it, it kind
of keeps something down here, you know.

14:10 Carl Rogers You're seeing it from here, up.

UNKNOWN For sure. For sure. I don't know how to do that exactly, whatever. It's like I don't drink a lot
because I don't really want to experience that kind of, um, you know, alcohol to me is a depressant,
anyway. And, you know, that's about the other thing I would really like to get down to really get out, you
know, maybe saying like, you know, I love somebody. I gave them myself. I did the best I could and it
wasn't good enough. And, you know, and you know, the man on top of the man and everything like that,
it's this -- you know. It's like that I'd like to be able -- then I said this the other day when I was talking to
you. I'd like to be able to -- to say that I was screwed over and I got hurt and everything else like that or
whatever. But almost an admission in a way on another level of -- of saying that they got the best of me.
You know, I really know what. I really don't want anybody historically to have gotten the best of me. But
they did -- they did. They beat the hell out of me.

15:40 Carl Rogers You don't want to say, I really was defeated at times and that's the truth.

15:45 UNKNOWN Yeah, it is. You know, being -- having a right to be defeated. and beaten. I don't know
if there's any value in doing, you know, maybe to myself, admitting it to myself, but I'm really finding out
that I have a lot of hopes in that line that I hadn't thought of before. You know, in terms of, um, because I
don't want to be beaten but I was, you know. Because I think when you were hurt that's being beaten.

16:30 Carl Rogers Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN You know, and I allowed myself to and I don't regret caring. I don't regret loving and
whatever, you know. But I'm a kid in a way. I like to be loved too. I like some reciprocity. And I'm going
to start I think expecting that. You know, without being cold or anything like that. but I have to, you
know, start getting something back in return.

17:05 Carl Rogers You want love to be mutual.

UNKNOWN For sure.

Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN For sure. And I don't want to have to get in a situation that I'm in, now. Where I'm afraid to
-- to -- to show anybody that I'm hurt.

17:15 Carl Rogers Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN You know, scared out there.

17:20 Carl Rogers Something really awful about sharing -- letting anyone know that I'm hurt. I'm hurting.

17:30 UNKNOWN Sure. Sure. It's -- you know, it has something to do with being a man. It has
something to do with the race thing. You know, it has something to do with the relationship. Maybe the
failure of the relationship. A -- a lot of things, you know, father not being in the home with his children.

17:50 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN You know, really feel like being the victim.

17:55 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

18:05 [sil.]
18:10 UNKNOWN I don't know how to get that up at all. It seems every time I get close to that I take a
drink of water. I know if that helps it keep it down.

18:30 Carl Rogers Maybe it will keep it from coming up above this level.

18:35 UNKNOWN For sure. It's -- it's really not what I want, either. You know, I want to get out and stay
out, you know.

18:45 Carl Rogers You would like to let it out.

18:50 UNKNOWN Yeah, so maybe if you have some exorcism type powers, maybe you'll just do that and
I'll get rid of that. You know, because that's what it feels like. It feels like there's something there that I'm
really -- I've identified it. I think I've identified it, you know, because I notice sometimes where there's
such a big lump in my throat, you know, and that I explain. I give myself a lot of reasons why I shouldn't
be feeling like that, you know.

19:25 Carl Rogers A big lump hurts, though.

19:30 UNKNOWN Uh-huh.

19:35 [sil.]

Carl Rogers And how to let that hurt come out of that -- emerge and be out here instead of being way
down locked in here.

19:55 UNKNOWN Right. Yeah. You know, I -- I never believe in cook book answers to anything even
when I cook. I don't use a cook book. I just don't believe in them. But I really like to be able -- for
somebody to be able to tell me to, maybe how to do that in about five minutes and to be through and live
the rest of my life in peace. You know, what I mean?

20:25 Carl Rogers Sure. It would be awfully nice if somebody says, now, if you do this and this all your
hurt will be gone forever.

20:30 UNKNOWN For sure. For sure. I have a suspicion that maybe you know some things that I don't.

20:40 Carl Rogers No. I'm not holding out on you.

20:45 UNKNOWN Yeah, I believed that. I -- I -- it feels like I'm holding out om myself. You know, you
know. I don't know.

20:55 Carl Rogers It goes back to some of the things that you mention. A man doesn't know that he's hurt.
A black man, especially doesn't admit that' he's been hurt. I think -- a father doesn't admit he's been hurt
by being away from his children. It's just too many things that say no, no, no. Don't let it out. But inside
there's the hurt. A phrase came to me a minute ago that if you could let that out and it would be the voice
of the victim. That maybe gets sent out.

21:45 UNKNOWN Yeah. And I don't know what. You know, I don't know if I have any control over that.
You know, of -- of what would happen, you know. It's like a friend of mine the other day who helped me
through my encounter with another person that, you know, very intelligent sort that was talking about --
some garbage about feeling and some things like that. Then I really wanted to just -- to just -- you know, I
just saw the society, the culture right in him, you know, and I really just wanted to kind of deck him. You
know, something that's not, my nature, whatever. But I just really wanted to kind of deck him. And my
friend said, you know, one of these days if you could -- if you don't get it together or something -- not that
if you don't get it together. But he says, that one of these days you're really going to lose it. You know,
you know, and I'm -- it's that I want to get rid of all that stuff that was done to me and not have to hear all
that other stuff.
22:50 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN Or to be able to deal with the very constructive kind of a way. You know, but still it grinds
me because of all the other stuff that's happened to me. And when I see other people doing it to other
people it really grinds me. It makes me angry, you know. And I would think that in those situations I've
begun to kind of like strike out. Or, you know, protecting somebody else or fighting for somebody else or
whatever. And like, I'm not sure what I did for myself over those years that all that happened to me, or
whatever. And if I could cry and it happened to be all right.

23:35 Carl Rogers That's what I was thinking. I was just thinking that if you could only cry. You know --

UNKNOWN Yeah. But that's a trip. That's a trip. You know, that's a trip like --

23:40 Carl Rogers Uh, first place a man doesn't cry.

23:45 UNKNOWN For sure. For sure. That's a fact.

23:50 Carl Rogers But I guess you're saying there are times that you -- that lump in your throat and you
sure as hell fell like crying.

23:55 UNKNOWN For sure. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe going to one of those
old -- movies, dramas or something like that so I could cry, you know, I would have an excuse to cry. You
know, but cry myself I'm not sure that I -- I'm not sure that that's going to be constructive, you know.

24:25 Carl Rogers I don't know. You say you're not sure whether crying for yourself is constructive. I feel
also you're afraid of crying for yourself.

24:35 UNKNOWN I may be. I may be. Because if I feel like crying and I know that whenever there's
some things that, you know -- but you see that's a part of it too. You know, it's -- you know, and I -- and I
-- and I hate to keep using these things where just being so conditioned not to. You know, from a little
thing like, you know, little man or big boys or whatever don't cry and -- and --

25:00 Carl Rogers A seven year old can cry.

25:05 UNKNOWN Yeah. For sure. I cried -- I remember crying but I cried alone. I never let anybody see
me cry.

25:15 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN You know, I wouldn't let people see me cry, cry cry, cry. It's kind of interesting, you know,
living with my ex-wife or whatever. She cried all the time. She cried getting up in the morning, she cried,
you know, just crying for crying, you know, I asked her sometimes about why she cried. And she just
said, she just wanted to, you know, I don't know if that was healthy or whatever but it probably was a lot
more healthier than what I did.

25:45 Carl Rogers Uh-huh. It was better than never letting anyone see you cry.

UNKNOWN Right. There are just so many other ways to deal with, you know, that I've learned. You
know, like working hard and not thinking about it. You know, not thinking about it.

26:05 Carl Rogers And seeing all the sorrow for yourself and what's happened to you and all that, um,
that doesnt really exist. That -- that's just -- you're too busy to -- have any thoughts about it.

26:20 UNKNOWN For sure.

Carl Rogers That the sorrow is still there.

26:25 UNKNOWN For sure. And I really don't know how to -- I really don't know how to deal with it. I
really don't. I really don't. You know, just really giving so much of yourself and it's just -- really crazy.
Too much.

26:55 Carl Rogers If you did cry, what would some of the themes of that crying be?

27:05 UNKNOWN Well, just you know, all those, you know, all those hours that I spent away from my
family when I gave up my family. Didn't see my children grow. You know, really wanted to be that to be
for some kind of a higher level, some kind of a higher cause. You know, but not to have that, uh, to see
anything -- to see any benefit that I do. You know, all of that work, I mean, hours and hours and -- I just
incredible. And I think that would be, you know, something -- dammit why the hell have I spent so much
time? Why did I spend so much time, you know. The leukemia, the everything that happened to me or
whatever would be properly deserving of one person life would be have been changed, or something and,
you know, and something, and like maybe that -- maybe it has or whatever, but I -- I think that I -- I don't
trust that -- there is a word that -- you see.

28:15 Carl Rogers You've invested a whole lot of caring, a whole lot of yourself and -- and you feel a real
sorrow that maybe nothing came of that.

28:25 UNKNOWN Yeah. And I'd also like to, um, just kind of cry for my father in law too who was
killed before I -- about six months before I got the Leukemia. I'd like to really tell him that I, uh, you
know, I really loved him a great deal.

28:50 Carl Rogers So you're telling me in place of telling him maybe you didn't speak to him, I don't
know. But you really would like to tell him I loved you, you know, that? I loved you.

29:10 UNKNOWN Well, I -- I really would. It's in a situation I started out. I was married, I married
somebody from a different race and we thought it out to the nail or whatever, but yeah, we loved each
other. We fished together, and he was great with me. Other people were very cold, you know, bygone this
is the way it's gonna be and so forth. But I saw him and was hurt too. And, um, when he was killed in -- in
1975 in a hunting accident, it just really took all of it, you know. Because he -- he helped me to get -- to
try to get out of that stuff. He says, hey, you know, what are you doing? You know, what do you really
want to do? And at the time I wanted to open my own restaurant or whatever, and so he was going to help
me finance that restaurant. Until a week later he was killed one week. and, um, and so we were getting so
close but that I really never told him, hey dad, you know, hey dad, I love you. I really love you. You
know, we told each other in some ways or whatever, but it's not the same as, you know, saying I really
love you. I really care.

30:25 Carl Rogers You feel real sad, that you never gave him a straight message on that and --

30:30 UNKNOWN Because he was straighter with me than a lot of people.

30:35 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN And to now, to be taken away from all of that, you see because it's only been, you know,
eight months or so I ceased all communication with my family. You know, a family or my wife's family
that I loved and I cared for. When I buried my father-in-law and that was it. That was -- even the family
begin to take on those same things as the culture. You know.

31:10 Carl Rogers Things began to fall apart for him, you know.

UNKNOWN For sure. For sure. And lately I dont know if falling apart or at least my being able to see
that -- that, uh, really wasn't -- it wasn't true. It wasn't real. I wasn't getting anything, back. I wasn't getting
any nourishment back. You know, you know, smiles and polite kisses and things like that. You know, that
is, you know, part of the hurt. You know, rather for somebody who's saying, you know, I think you're a
lousy SOB or whatever as opposed to saying, hello, dear. How are you? You know, you know.
31:45 Carl Rogers Where the real message is very upsetting. I think you're a lousy SOB.

UNKNOWN Right. You know.

31:50 END

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CARL ROGERS

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HURT &

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31:55 [sil.]

33:15 UNKNOWN Yeah, you know, so there's a few, there's a few things.

33:20 Carl Rogers How hard it would be for you, your father in law and you really weeped for him.

33:25 UNKNOWN I -- I think I would. You know, and just maybe I think that I really wish that I could,
you know, just say, hey. You know, you guys -- your really don't realize what you did to me, you know.
Because for a while, I just said, well, you know, racist, terrible, blah, blah, blah. But that doesn't say
anything, you know, it doesn't say how I really feel. But -- but they wouldn't understand it. They couldn't
understand how a black person could be hurt. Because if you don't accept a person as human, how can
you -- how can you think about a dog could be hurt or whatever. You know, people that don't have dogs
and, you know, people dont understand that. You know.

34:15 Carl Rogers Do you get some satisfaction out of saying, you people don't realize how much you
hurt me. They might not be able to hear that message. But you'd get some satisfaction out of -- out of
expressing that. Out of -- out of letting yourself know, letting others know that God, I've been hurt.

34:35 UNKNOWN Yeah.

34:40 Carl Rogers I've been wounded.

34:45 UNKNOWN I just don't think I could do that, because I just don't think -- I just don't trust, no, no. I
wouldn't do it. Because I wouldn't want to give them the satisfaction, you know, it's like I fell like, you
know, maybe that is my feeling. But id d I have too many times, you know, opened up a little bit of
whatever and someone says, squash.

35:15 Carl Rogers So there are probably loads of people you wouldn't dare open up to. But I guess you're
opening up to me to say, yes, but I have been really wounded badly by a lot of people.

35:25 UNKNOWN For sure. I just maybe think that you can understand that a little bit in terms of about
hurt and that. You know, but I -- but I'm a person and, um, you know, I'm a person. And I don't really want
that denied to me ever again, you know, and I could really get angry. I don't feel I -- that's not going to
happen to me. In a way, you know, I don't want to love anybody like I did my father in law again and for
God's sake, you know, that's a painful but I don't know, that's terribly sick too. You have to love. You have
to keep loving and whatever, but at that time it was the only thing that was productive. It was the only
thing that was something that was, you know, cause Fromm talks about biophyllic. It was growth, it was
nourishing. And that was the only thing that was just taken away from me. It was taken away from me
just --

36:35 Carl Rogers Just like that.

UNKNOWN You know, just really strange, you know.

Carl Rogers So that's -- that's been -- a hurt and a shock and -- and makes you feel, I can't risk myself
loving somebody else like that because that might disappear.

36:50 UNKNOWN For sure. For sure. For sure. I certainly don't want any more in-laws, be they,
whatever color. I'm not sure I want them. But now, you know, I think that's a part of it, you know, more so
than -- than risking loving somebody just because that -- that I know is inevitable. But it's that -- that
other collection of things around it or whatever, but -- but, you know, it's crazy. It's crazy to love. It's like
loving a pet rock or something. Nothing.

37:25 Carl Rogers Love goes out from me but nothing comes back.

37:30 UNKNOWN Right. And I'm not so sure that I want it to work like that, again. You know, maybe by
-- maybe by saying that, I don't know, maybe by saying, hey, I really was hurt and everything like that.
Maybe that would be a start or whatever. But I just don't really trust that they really understand that.

37:50 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

37:55 UNKNOWN They took my wife who lived with me for seven years, you know, it took me maybe
six or seven months to understand that I was -- that I was hurt. That I was desperate.

38:05 Carl Rogers Uh-huh. And there's a little chance of anyone else really ever understanding you.

38:10 UNKNOWN Well, that sounds kind of -- well, so little chance for a bad group of people
understanding me.

38:25 Carl Rogers Okay.

UNKNOWN And I believe it. I really believe it. You know, it would just -- it would be like me trying to,
um, to understand or -- or to tell Dick Nixon about my feelings and I just don't think he can particularly
relate to that. You know, and I'm using -- and I'm really serious about that example because he's so far
away from me and my reality and that family, you know, I found out was so far away from me and my
reality you know, it was insane, you know, it was really insane, you know. so I -- I think for loving them, I
feel okay for loving them.

39:10 Carl Rogers You feel?

UNKNOWN Okay. For loving them.

Carl Rogers I see.

UNKNOWN But I don't feel okay for sharing anymore with them. Sharing that hurt is just -- you know,
and maybe just sharing it with other people would be okay. But I know I'm moving away from the other
two, you know, it's really important, right now. And I don't know, maybe I -- I'm not rushing it I just seem
I want to get out, and whatever -- you know, it's really -- it must have gone to -- my body really must have
gone through some changes and whatever, because, you know, something there is just really keeping it.
Keeping it and I know all those reasons but I can't -- I can't, um, seem to muster that power to get it to --
to get it out, you know, to really get, you know.

40:05 Carl Rogers There's still too much locked in.

UNKNOWN Yeah. For sure. But it really -- it really helps. You know, um, cause it -- you know, it's
incredible. You know, this is the first time that I talked to anybody, you know, that I haven't really been in
control. To some extent I've really given up a lot of control.

40:25 Carl Rogers Uh-huh..

UNKNOWN To --

40:30 Carl Rogers Sort of -- sort of letting things loose rather than --

UNKNOWN For sure.

Carl Rogers -- keeping them under your control.

40:35 UNKNOWN For sure.

Carl Rogers And that's a new experience.

UNKNOWN A very new experience for me. A very new experience. And maybe, I don't know if it's just
-- it's a function of that too, or something, you know. Things are rattling around in my head that -- you
know. But all the other is just bull shit and like I have been hurt and I really don't want to get involved
anymore in terms of people that can't return love and can't accept people. I just don't overly want to get
involved anymore. I'm sick and tired, sick of it.

41:25 Carl Rogers It sounds like you're more accepting of yourself as a person who is vulnerable, who is
hurt. Who is hurting and who wants love. It doesn't want to be all one say street of giving love. You want
love back in return.

41:40 UNKNOWN Yeah. And I want to be able to feel -- and -- and to cry. And not to be afraid of crying
and not to be afraid of -- I want to be able. I want to work for that. I really want to work for that. I know I
do. I just have this thing, you know, if I trust the doctors, I'd let them cut me open and let them cut it out.
You know, but I don't.

42:00 Carl Rogers It would be simpler to have an operation.

42:05 UNKNOWN Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I -- but do you -- do you -- do you feel that, you know, I
really want to tell you how hurt I am but I'm not. I can't. I can't tell you.

42:20 Carl Rogers I understand that. You're -- you're, um, visualizing in my mind, you're walking all
around the edge of that. But you're not really letting yourself down into it. So you're letting me know all
about it. But -- but not yet.

42:35 UNKNOWN Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I don't know how to do that. You know.

42:40 Carl Rogers Yeah. I -- I hear you saying, I really want to get to that. But it will have to be at my
pace. I can't -- I can't force it. But I do want to get to it.

42:50 UNKNOWN Yeah. I kind of wanted to get to it really fast, because, you know, it's the only part of
me that's really -- that I really feel is sick with a cancer. You know, that I could eliminate that I could
eliminate all the cancer from my body. I really believe, you know, and I really blame. I really blame the
way I lived and the stress and everything else like that on -- on -- on the disease. I really do.
43:20 Carl Rogers You mean you blame the disease on all that stress. Is that what you mean?

43:25 UNKNOWN Right. Yeah for sure. I had -- for sure. I do. I do. And to some extent I blame racism.

43:30 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN You know, I just dont want to get caught up into that anymore. You know, and I want to
continue to give. But I don't want -- I'm just not going to do it the way I did it before. And, um, I don't
know. Yelling sometimes, you know, when I came in here, you know, I was thinking about yelling and
those big long, you know, but I'm not sure that I want to do that.

43:55 Carl Rogers You can try.

UNKNOWN You know, I don't know, you know. That wouldn't be culture.

44:05 Carl Rogers Standards, standards --

UNKNOWN I was -- I was really social.

44:10 Carl Rogers You were brought up right.

UNKNOWN Oh, yeah. I learned all of it. All of it. And --

44:20 Carl Rogers And still inspired yourself by it.

UNKNOWN Yeah.

44:25 Carl Rogers You really don't want to but still you find --

UNKNOWN Yeah.

44:30 Carl Rogers You can't do the uncultured thing.

44:35 UNKNOWN For sure. I have a standard, I guess that are really foreign go me, but, you know, you
know, the thing that I thought about, you know, and like, you know, it was like in terms of expressing my
anger, whatever comes out in terms of, you know, possible obscenity, you know, you know, like calling
somebody a bunch of something or other would really, you know, I don't know what it would really do. I
would really like to do that, you know.

45:10 Carl Rogers That helps to explain why I've kept your language quite guided here. I realized, I used
more profanity than you have.

45:20 UNKNOWN For sure. You know, but -- I don't know. It's just a part of that, you know, like I was
just.

45:30 Carl Rogers You'd like to just throw off the bastard.

UNKNOWN Yeah, right. Right. Right. Oh, my Goodness.

45:40 Carl Rogers You can't even do that.

UNKNOWN Oh. It it's incredible. I don't know. Im getting warm.

45:50 Carl Rogers Both inside and outside.

UNKNOWN Yes. Right. Im getting extremely warm. Um, maybe I'll be able to do it one day, I guess.
Maybe I'll be able to do it. I don't really have, but you see when I get out of here I'll use a lot of profanity,
you know, like I -- I -- I think I did. Like, when I was really angry talking to my wife and things like that
where I was just, God Dammit and all of that. You know, bastards and some other things and like, you
know, I was raised properly, you know. Yeah, but I think a part of that would be part of expressing my
feelings and everything like that. You know --

46:45 Carl Rogers It wouldnt come out in a nice polite language.

UNKNOWN No. It wouldn't. It -- it really wouldn't. To my teachers, that I had. To the family that I had,
um, to a lot of my colleagues, you know, and others. And -- but I don't know if I really want to tell them.
You know, maybe it's just a part of being proud and -- and everything else like that. But at least for myself
I -- I feel that I need to get it out openly and --

47:25 Carl Rogers And you don't need to tell it to them face to face, but you need to get it out of yourself,
somehow.

47:30 UNKNOWN Somehow, yeah. Yeah. Really rotten and -- I really feel, you know, really screwed, I
really fell so badly.

47:45 Carl Rogers Bastard, you really screwed me.

47:50 UNKNOWN Yeah, they -- they got me. You know, it was just like, being part I guess it had
something to do with being you know, I guess, you know, just wipe them out. You know, if you don't get
them with their bodies you do it in their mind, you know, like it happens. You know, it was -- it was real,
you know, and the -- to try to describe that hell to somebody is the hardest thing, you know, but it's like,
you know, just somebody knocking you down and somebody coming and stomping on you, spitting on
you and everything like that. And like, it's just, you know, it's just being -- feeling like garbage.

48:35 Carl Rogers Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN And I have a feeling that people have made me feel like garbage, you know, and like, you
know, I'm sure that my friends would say, you know, God I have everything. But I didn't have everything.
I didn't have everything. I certainly didn't have that respect as a person.

49:00 Carl Rogers There are a lot of people who may or may not have beaten you physically, treated you
in a way that just trampled on you and beat you up and spit on you and and made you a nobody, a piece of
garbage.

49:20 UNKNOWN And it won't happen again. Not if I can help it. Because I'm really tired of fighting.
Really of spending that kind of energy. Really it's just -- draining, it's just too draining. Im like, you
know, I don't really know what's going to happen, in terms of, you know, how I'm going to do that. You
know, get it out or -- or whatever, but, you know, I don't really want to say, you know, that I'm hurt or
whatever. Because that is -- that isn't even descriptive enough so -- for what really happened.

50:10 Carl Rogers Yeah. To say a word like that or several of the other words you used just isn't' at all the
same as feeling those feelings inside and really feeling them fully.

50:25 UNKNOWN This really is, uh, unless you saw the exorcist, but it's as really as, you know, that, uh,
I remember seeing that movie where the girl just threw up this green slime, you know, that's really. It was
that bad. You know, it's -- because I know -- I know it, now. And that's not a part of me and my body
really wants to reject that but I -- how to -- how to -- how to throw that out this --

51:00 Carl Rogers Yeah, now to -- how to vomit up that green slime that's been -- part of your experience.

51:05 UNKNOWN Maybe I'm just afraid I would look horrible, or that I would look horrible or whatever
expressing that kind of anger, uh, that kind of, uh, that kind of hurt or whatever.
51:15 Carl Rogers You wouldn't look civilized, you wouldn't look cultured.

51:20 UNKNOWN I don't -- I don't know. You know, yeah. Totally don't. But, right now, that more than
getting that out , I think the overriding thing is that I want to keep the -- at least the control -- to control
that for fear of -- you see, I don't really want to get sick again. You know, like I think the slightest, you
know, just by being weak. By submitting to that kind of pain and, um, somehow bring back my, um --

52:15 Carl Rogers You wonder about that if you -- if you let out all the, -- all the hell that you've
experienced inside it might, uh, it might bring back the illness.

52:25 UNKNOWN And that doesn't sound logical does it. I know that. Thank you, thank you very much.
Oh God, what a --

52:40 [sil.]

52:55 UNKNOWN I don't know. Kind of, you know, I feel so beaten. I -- I mean I feel beaten right now,
I'm not sure why. That, in a way I kind of really got something to say. You can't -- and I know I'll feel
better. So maybe I wouldn't, you know, I'm really a tough guy. I realize I'm talking in circles. I seem to be
talking in circles. Does that sound like --

53:30 Carl Rogers It's more spirals, I think. When you say getting very close, you feel -- you feel beaten
right now, as though, if only something would come out you wouldn't feel beaten.

53:50 UNKNOWN Yeah. I think that, you know, just almost turned me into something unhuman. I really
almost let it turn me into something unhuman.

54:10 Carl Rogers It made an animal out of you?

UNKNOWN It damn did. It damn did. Yeah. So you see that, um, so don't want that happening at all. Not
going to do it to me, again.

54:30 Carl Rogers That's great too.

54:35 UNKNOWN I know that doesn't help the other problem, but at least I know that. And I really do
know that. You know, because I don't think that anybody has a right to do that to anybody. Nobody,
teacher, wife, husband, whatever. And -- and it really wasn't my fault either. And, uh, look I'm not
blameless, you know, I'm not without any blame but, whatever, you know. Somebody took a big tree and
just rammed it up. So, you know, hard to describe, you know, you know.

55:20 Carl Rogers Took a big stick and rammed it up your ass. Is that what you said?

55:30 UNKNOWN I didn't say that.

55:35 Carl Rogers Is that what you meant?

UNKNOWN That's what I meant.

Carl Rogers Okay. That's what I wanted to know. If I was catching your meaning correctly.

55:40 UNKNOWN Yeah. For sure. You know, and properly that would be painful.

55:45 Carl Rogers And it's that pain that you suffered?

55:55 UNKNOWN Yeah. Just can't let it happen -- I just can't let happen again.

56:10 [sil.]
56:25 UNKNOWN I, um, I am really am -- I've been really don't know how to tell you how bad I've been
hurt. You know, I really don't.

56:45 Carl Rogers It goes beyond words --

UNKNOWN Yeah. But I know, you know, it's there and maybe I should tend to it a little bit more. But
Goddammit, maybe just --

57:00 Carl Rogers You're feeling some of that hurt, now.

57:05 UNKNOWN Yeah, I am. I was thinking about a whino on the street that continues to drink and
doesn't have a place to live. You know, and I've seen so many people go by there, the kind of person, you
know, disgusting. Don't want to work, or whatever. But, you know, I really feel like that maybe there are
some reasons.

57:35 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN And I know one thing, I'm going to allow that person to be desperate. Because I'm thinking
that probably people like that do things out of desperation. And, um, because I know, you know, never
really had a drinking problem or anything like that but it's that kind of sensitivity that I've gotten from all
of that.

58:05 Carl Rogers Well, it seems -- it seems to me that you're -- you're feeling, -- you know what it's like
to be in desperation. And you know what it could drag you to and so maybe that's what's happened to
some of them. Something like that.

58:25 UNKNOWN For sure. For sure. And I think that I -- I -- my heart goes out to people like that.
People who can't afford to do this or whatever, and, you can see I had a lot of money and all that. And,
um, but in a way I'm happier, now. You know, but I really don't know, not sure really where to go next.
But I know that I really don't want that kind of life anymore. That I want to give, I want to help and I
want to talk to people and whatever. And before I do that, you know, I want to get my thing together. And
a part of that is maybe just admitting, you know. And I guess maybe admitting that I'm hurt and showing
and expressing my hurt or whatever will -- will reaffirm the fact that I'm a person. Because a part of me
not showing that as, you know, putting myself up too high. And that's what everybody -- thats what
everything was.

59:30 Carl Rogers Because I dont hurt and I don't --

59:35 UNKNOWN That's a lot of bull shit, right.

Carl Rogers And just for a moment there, I felt you really were experiencing that too. You were really
feeling that stick shoved up your ass.

59:45 UNKNOWN Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, how your natural reaction, you know, when hard feelings
and stuff like that. Or at least when I do. You know, I got to -- to put it all out of my mind. The amount of
different levels. But I keep doing, you know, when I get to the point. Got to get it close to the level.

01:00:05 Carl Rogers Get that close to the pit and then pull out.

01:00:10 UNKNOWN You -- you -- is it all right to have everybody else to blame, you know, for your
problem instead of sharing some of that. But I shared. I think I really -- I shared that.

01:00:30 Carl Rogers I think what you're saying is I feel as though dammit everybody else is to blame.
My mind says, oh, you have a part in it too. But your feelings are --
01:00:45 UNKNOWN Yeah. Yeah. And I guess I hurt myself. I didn't -- other people -- maybe if I can
clarify that. I let myself, you know, because I just gave too much. You know.

01:01:00 Carl Rogers You made yourself vulnerable, sometimes.

UNKNOWN And not sometimes, most of the time. You know, by being, you know, just by being -- by
sharing, by being there, by giving. You know, and really loving. Because I do have a sense of that total,
you know, of that -- I want to love. That's my nature.

01:01:25 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN But, you know, I've really never been this beaten. I never -- you know. Never have.

01:01:35 Carl Rogers And what you say that you've never felt so much as being beaten as you do, right
now? Is that what you're saying?

01:01:45 UNKNOWN Well, through this whole thing, you know.

01:01:50 Carl Rogers Yeah.

UNKNOWN Just beaten. You know, just really beaten. And I think if I show you how -- how much I've
been beaten or whatever, then, you know, I'll probably become nothing in this chair. Just, you know.

01:02:05 Carl Rogers You might practically disappear if you really let me know how hurt and awful and
beaten you feel.

01:02:10 UNKNOWN For sure. For sure. And, you know, I could tell you sometimes, I mean, it would
just, you know, maybe blow you away, you know.

01:02:25 [sil.]

01:02:35 UNKNOWN This is really too much.

01:02:40 Carl Rogers Uh-huh.

UNKNOWN It's really too much for me. I feel like it.

01:02:45 Carl Rogers I think you feel as though I've gone about as far as I can go at this point.

01:02:55 UNKNOWN Really. When I start smiling I know I'm --

01:03:00 Carl Rogers And taking a drink of water.

01:03:05 UNKNOWN For sure. Well, you know, but I'm being truthful about it, anyway.

01:03:10 Carl Rogers Yeah. I feel -- I feel too. Uh, you've walked around that pit of hurt and pain and
beatness and you felt some of it. And, uh, perhaps that's as far as you can go right at this moment. Even
though, you know there's more there. You know that you keep things down. And some of those things
may be helpful to you.

01:03:45 UNKNOWN Yeah, you see. I can talk about this Leukemia and all this stuff and everything like
that. Like I said, you know.

01:03:55 Carl Rogers It's easier to talk about Leukemia and the possibility about death and all that than it
is to talk about all the hurt and awfulness that you've suffered.
01:04:05 UNKNOWN Yeah. You know. I have to stop. Okay.

01:04:15 Carl Rogers Okay. All right. Uh-huh. You got as far as you can go. Okay.

01:04:30 [sil.]

01:04:45 Carl Rogers Peter is an armor plated man. He's been significantly hurt but he hides his real
feelings very deeply. But in this relationship the armor begins to crack, just begins to crack. He says this
is the first time that I 've ever talked to anybody that I haven't really been in control. So in this
understanding climate he lets himself get closer to the experiencing of his feelings. My image is that he's
walking all around his own private slew of disband. We find the upper layer is anger but further down in
the slime are the unspeakable hurts and the feelings of being tromped on, defeated and humiliated. He
gets so close to experiencing some of this that his expressions become eloquent nonverbal
communication. Ooh, whew, oh, I've got to stop. I feel at that moment he put his foot into this dreaded pit
than he has to draw back. I don't regret this. I regret it as demonstrating the wisdom of the client. He
knows where the worst spots are in his experiencing. He knows what he can tolerate. He has to proceed at
his own pace. Along the way, we see how powerful metaphor is in the deeper ranges of psychotherapy.
Metaphor is so much more expressive than an intellectual description. The lump in his throat, the ability
to speak from up here and not from down there. The god damn tree stuck up his ass. The green slime that
must be vomited. They all speak vividly of his feelings without naming those feelings. From an
intellectual and theoretical point of view, there are bits that fascinate me. His interjected self is his
cultured self. That quotes credits to his race. It has little relation to his real feelings in which he could
discover his real self. Another bit, he reports very convincingly that if he let his feelings all out it would
make him sick aging. But hearing those exact words by me makes him realize it's a ridiculous view. I
think that's a fascinating interchange. There's another bit. When I get him full permission to be as angry as
he wishes, that stops him completely. Then he can no longer avoid the fact that it's not his anger that he's
afraid of, but the hurt and vulnerable part of him. Then there's the mourning which accompanies
unexpressed love. The love for his father in law which he was never able to communicate. I think he
gained from communicating it to me. Finally, he makes it very clear that for him there are many more
frightening aspects of his life than the prospect of death. Somehow this seems to contain a message for all
of us. As for me, I felt very present in the relationship. And understanding companion on this trip of
exploration which seems so potentially dangerous to him. I think it's a good example of how I work with
an articulate mind.