Al Sharpton and Christopher Hitchens Debate

Round 1

Mr. Hitchens said he realized that belief in God was irrational at age 9. He cited
two arguments against faith. First, that religion is simply untrue, religions having
arisen to explain phenomena that could not be accounted for like diseases and
natural disasters for which there are now scientific explanations.

Second, Mr. Hitchens criticized those who dont believe in the literal truth of the
immaculate conception, the burning bush, Lazarus rising from the dead and yet
say, Its not really true, it does come from a rather fearful period of the dark ages,
but its nice to believe.

Mr. Hitchens noted the Christian titles Parting the Waters, Pillar of Fire, At
Canaans Edge of Taylor Branchs three-part biography of the Rev. Dr. Martin
Luther King Jr. If you think about it for a second, its a very good thing that the
good doctor was only using this metaphorically, Mr. Hitchens said, adding that
Dr. King, if he really believed in invoking the lessons of Genesis and Exodus,
would have turned toward eye-for-an-eye vengeance rather than nonviolence and
civil disobedience.

He said of the Jewish Bible (what Christians call the Old Testament): In these
books there are the warrants for genocide, for slavery, for the torture of children,
for genital mutilation, for annexation, for rape and all the rest of it. Its a very good
thing that this is all man-made.

Mr. Hitchens invoked the Western, rationalist tradition the tradition that brings
us through Galileo and Spinoza and Thomas Paine and Voltaire, and Thomas
Jefferson and Bertrand Russell and Albert Einstein, men of great wisdom and
insight, by all means struck by the inspiring character of our universe and
aware of the transcendent inspiration provided by poetry, architecture and
contemplation of the universe.

Look through the Hubble Telescope if you want to see something thats awe-
inspiring; dont look to blood-stained old myths, Mr. Hitchens said.

Mr. Hitchens said he was inspired to write his book by the rise in religious
fundamentalism, citing violence over a Danish newspapers publication of a
cartoon satirizing the Prophet Muhammad, the sectarian conflict in Iraq and the
controversy over the teaching of evolution in American public schools. (He
compared teaching intelligent design to teaching alchemy or astrology.)
Mr. Sharpton, who had listened to Mr. Hitchenss presentation with a sober
expression, offered a calm response.

You made a very interesting analysis of how people use or misuse God, but you
made no argument about God Himself, Mr. Sharpton said. And attacking the
quote-wicked-unquote use of God does not at all address the existence of God or
nonexistence of God.

He continued:

We are sitting in a room that because of lights, we assume that there is electricity
in the building. Electricity can light the room or burn it down; it does not mean
electricity does not exist because it burns a building down, or that it is inherently
wicked. Clearly people have misused God, as they have misused other things that
are possibly positive, but its existence is not in any way proved or disproved by
you giving me a long diatribe on those that have mishandled and misused God.

Mr. Sharpton offered two other arguments in defense of religious belief. He argued
as he would throughout the evening that without God, all is morally relative.

If there is no God and if there is no supreme mechanism that governs the world,
what makes right right and what makes wrong wrong? Mr. Sharpton asked. Why
dont we just go by whoever is the strongest in any period in history?

He added, On one hand, were going to argue God doesnt exist; on the other
hand were going to call people wicked. Wicked according to whom, and
according to what? It would be based on whoever has power at that time.

Further, Mr. Sharpton suggested that the marvel of human creation including
evolution implies the existence of a divine creator.

The real thing that Im interested in, Mr. Hitchens, is to really discuss the idea of
God and the idea of a supreme being and how creatures and creation have just by
some great coincidence, an unexplained scheme, followed some order that just
happened by itself. Some thing, some force, some overruling force, had to set all
of that pattern in and it continues thousands of years later.

Mr. Sharpton told Mr. Hitchens, In terms of the civil rights movement, it was
absolutely fueled by a belief in God and a belief in right or wrong. Had not there
been this belief that there was a right and a wrong, the civil rights movement that
you alluded to, and referred to, would not have existed.
Mr. Sharpton also aimed a barb at Mr. Hitchens, who has broken with left-wing
commentators through his staunch defense of the war in Iraq and President Bushs
policies there.

At the end what is refreshing is that you are a man of faith, Mr. Sharpton told
Mr. Hitchens, to much laughter, because any man that at this point has faith that
there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq has more faith than any religious
person I know.

Round 2

Mr. Hitchens noted that Dr. King had studied Hegel and Marx and that among his
associates were a large number of secular socialists, like the unionist A. Philip
Randolph and the activist Bayard Rustin.

The belief that it is illegal as well as evil to keep black Americans in subjection
does not require any supernatural endorsement, Mr. Hitchens said. It had been
proved repeatedly in morality and law and ethics. Indeed, he said, many
Christians offered Biblically based defenses of slavery and racial segregation.

Mr. Hitchens added, I didnt say that God was misused. I said that the idea of
God is a dictatorial one to begin with. A belief in a supreme, eternal, invigilating
creator who knows what you think and do and cares about you, watches over you
while you sleep is an innately horrific belief.

Mr. Hitchens said he did not doubt that the creation of life on the planet was
remarkable and not necessarily susceptible to a smooth, logical, reasonable
explanation.

Mr. Sharpton was not persuaded. A lot of what youre saying is based on dogma
that has nothing to do with ones belief in a supreme being. Youre discussing,
again, religions, dogmas, denominations, not the existence or nonexistence of
God.

Noting that Dr. King had established the Southern Christian Leadership
Conference, he said, Theres no question that he himself saw that the basis of the
movement was God-based. He added, To try and secularize the civil-rights
movement is just totally inaccurate. It was a church-based, faith-based movement;
theres just no question about that. Lets not reinvent Dr. King any more than
we try to reduce God to some denomination or convention.

But Mr. Sharpton, in a jab at Mitt Romney (and the Mormon religion, which Mr.
Hitchens had criticized because it once endorsed racial segregation), added, As
for the one Mormon running for office, those who that really believe in God will
defeat him anyway, so dont worry about that, thats a temporary thats a
temporary situation.

Round 3

Mr. Hitchens again cited violent texts in the Bible, like Gods command (later
revoked) that Abraham sacrifice Isaac and calls for the destruction of the Israelites
enemies. He said that nutcase settlers in the West Bank were trying to establish
a theocracy and bring on a Messiah and that the sayings of the Prophet
Muhammad could be used to justify the killing of apostates.

I think we could do without all this, he said.

Mr. Sharpton replied, Again, you are debating points I didnt make. I said you
keep confusing the existence of God, again, with religious denomination or
belief.

Mr. Hitchens: Are they separable?

Mr. Sharpton: Yes, very much so.

Round 4

Mr. Hitchens: Religion gets its morality from us; I think its fairly easy to
demonstrate that.

Mr. Sharpton: Youre back on the testaments. Why dont you write a book,
Testaments Are Not Great.

Mr. Hitchens said the very parable of the good Samaritan who was not a
Christian suggests that morality and religion are not necessarily linked:
Morality comes from us. Religion claims to have invented it on our behalf.

Before the Ten Commandment were handed down, he asked rhetorically, did the
Israelites believe that adultery, murder, theft and perjury were O.K.?

He added, The golden rule is something you dont have to teach a child. There is
no need to say, And if you dont follow this rule, youll burn in hell.

He said of religion, By all means, believe it, as long as you dont try to make me
believe it or teach it to my children.

Mr. Sharpton, in a quite personal turn, turned to his own experiences:

I would say that many people, I among them, in our own lives have had
experiences that make me believe that there is a God. And make me believe that
my seeking God and seeking the guidance of a supreme being is real to me. Im
not going by Moses, Im not going by Peter, Im not going by the man that you
said was a legend, Jesus of Nazareth. Im not here to defend Scriptures. I didnt
write those Scriptures. I live my life, and in my life the existence of God has been
confirmed to me in my own personal dealings and in my own faith being
vindicated and validated. That has absolutely nothing to do with Scriptures,
whether they are right or wrong.

Mr. Sharpton returned to his argument about moral relativism:

When you raise the issue of morality, if there is no supervisory being, what do we
base morality on? Is it based on who has the might at a given time, who is in
power? If there is no order to the universe then who determines what is right or
wrong, what is moral or immoral? You use religious terms interchangeably while
you attack the idea of God. There is nothing immoral if there is nothing in charge.

Round 5

Mr. Hitchens said he found Mr. Sharptons argument that God is necessary for
morality to be a profound observation, one made in Dostoyevskys The
Brothers Karamazov, for example. But on the whole, he argued, religion has done
more harm than good.

Rather than believing that without God, we would be wolves to each other, he
said, I think theres an enormous amount of evidence that thats not the case, that
morality is innate in us. When you see something otherwise surprising to you, such
as a good person acting in a wicked manner, its very often because they believe
they have divine orders to do so.

Mr. Hitchens said that religion prompts many people to do evil things citing
Palestinian suicide bombers and even the practice of circumcision. I do not think
that any person looking at a newborn baby would think, How wonderful, what a
gift, now lets start sawing away at his genitalia with a sharp stone. He added,
This is what I mean when I say that those who think theres any connection
between ethics and religion still have all their work ahead of them.
Mr. Sharptons retort: So you do not believe, in your long and thorough research
of history, that atheists never did anything evil only religious people reading
Scriptures of some sort?

Round 6

Mr. Weisberg, noting that that Mr. Sharpton to my surprise has not defended
anything in the Bible, asked Mr. Hitchens, What is your problem with faith
divorced from religious text or literalism?

Mr. Hitchens said he defined religion as the belief that God tells you what to do,
and argued that religious texts and religion itself could not be separated.

Mr. Weisberg then challenged Mr. Sharpton to explain why you havent defended
the Bible at all.

Mr. Sharptons reply: Maybe I read the wrong book. I didnt get the book by
Hitchens that the Bible is not great. I have yet to, after several inquiries tonight,
gotten him to address that. When I read his book and hear him talk, he makes a
case against everything other than God.

Mr. Sharpton added, We can then agree that as long as I dont bother the sedate,
scholarly world of Mr. Hitchens, hes fine. And Im fine with that. Because I am
certainly not trying to convert Mr. Hitchens.

Epilogue

Members of the audience including Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the former Dutch lawmaker
who was born in Somalia, renounced Islam and is now affiliated with the
American Enterprise Institute in Washington asked questions of Mr. Hitchens
and Mr. Sharpton.

Perhaps the funniest moment in the cordial and profound exchange occurred when
Mr. Sharpton endorsed Mr. Hitchenss book.

Id encourage people to buy the book, Mr. Sharpton said. I dont believe what it
says, but its well written. Hes a very eloquent and well-versed person.

Thats extremely handsome of you, Mr. Hitchens replied.