Jeff De Castro good day sir bren sorry for late reply here, pls see attached o/c

setting and tcc. meantime

i temporarily disabled instataneous settings
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Jeff De Castro still even time difference was set to 0.8sec,, downstream also upstream again trip
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Reply 3 hrs

PrimoJr Beltran sir Jeff De Castro, medyo malabo na mata ko pag gabi. If you are patient enough to re-
explain what your issues are?

Sir Bren Andaya is right, neutral ground would mean your ground fault current originates from a "residual"
connection point of phase CT...See More
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Reply 1 hr

PrimoJr Beltran Can you post here snap shot of of the ETAP SLD where your relay and breaker of
interest is shown? Then post here a snap shot of your ETAP CT rating, relay input tab, relay output tab,
relay OCR setting
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Reply 1 hr

PrimoJr Beltran Then I can cope up and be on the same page as you. afterwhich you may now post your
TCC issue.
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Reply 1 hr

Jeff De Castro ok sir i will post right away

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Reply 1 hr

PrimoJr Beltran Its 9:31 PM here and yes, you are running out of time hahaha
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Reply 1 hr

PrimoJr Beltran I will be at work around 4AM kasi dahil sa mga submittals namin....that's the only time
no one from project management bugs me.
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Reply 1 hr

Jeff De Castro for the sld sir

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Reply 1 hr

Jeff De Castro areas of concern is relay r-mvsg1 did not coordinate with downstream relay r-vcb-sp1
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Jeff De Castro i dont know if my parameters are quite sure, i guess sir
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Reply 55 mins

PrimoJr Beltran Well, based on your phase settings, your phase overcurrent pickup between R-VCB.SP1
and R-MVGS1 relays are fine...though I will set R-MVGS1 relay to 0.85 (680A) to be close to the
transformer full load current. (693A).

You time dial for R-MVGS1 shoul...See More

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Reply 45 mins

PrimoJr Beltran You see, if you limit the CTI between R-VCB.SP1 and R-MVGS1 to near 0.2-0.3 seconds,
then you may be able to have adequate CTI between R-MVGS1 and R-HVSG1 for a fault at ATS1 bus with
your total clearing within 1 sec.
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Reply 42 mins

Jeff De Castro for the rating of 400A i choose near to cable ampacity which is accdg to etap is 345.7A,
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Reply 40 mins

Jeff De Castro for the time of 0.83sec, thats my point sir even higher than 0.2sec(minimal for series
relay coordination) it cannot coordinate with upstream relay, i wonder why not.
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Reply 39 mins

PrimoJr Beltran Ok that's good, did not know that your cable is undersized to the transformer FLA.
Protecting the "weakest" link it is.
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Reply 39 mins

PrimoJr Beltran Why do you say it is not coordinating if the your relay R-VCB.SP1 trips first before R-
MVGS1 for a fault downstream of VCB-SP1?
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Reply 37 mins

Jeff De Castro accdg to my boss, as per the result of analyzer R-MVSG should not be trip
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Reply 36 min

PrimoJr Beltran Why does he say that? R-MVGS1 is your "backup protection" for R-VCB.SP1 for a fault at
load side of VCB-SP1
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Reply 35 mins
 Jeff De Castro i humbly accept that i dont have idea as per protection relay coordination thats why im
asking sir
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Reply 34 mins

PrimoJr Beltran Ok allow me to say it on another way

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Reply 34 mins

Jeff De Castro as per my understanding coordination means that if downstream trip, upstream should
not be trip
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Reply 34 mins

PrimoJr Beltran Ok hang on and I will explain further. Stop typing for a while
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Reply 33 mins

PrimoJr Beltran Relay R-VCB.SP1 tripping VCB-SP1 protects your cable12, VFD-SP1 for any fault at the
line side of VFD-SP1 and cable12. Would you agree?
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Reply 31 mins

PrimoJr Beltran Agree and I will continue

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Reply 31 mins

Jeff De Castro agree sir

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Reply 30 mins

PrimoJr Beltran Ok hang on

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Reply 30 mins

PrimoJr Beltran Relay R-VCB.SP1 tripping VCB-SP1 protects your cable12, VFD-SP1 for any fault at the
line side of VFD-SP1 and cable12. This means R-VCB.SP1 and VCB-SP1 are your PRIMARY PROTECTION for
 your VFD-SP1 and cable12.

Now, WHAT IF, your Relay R-VCB.SP1 failed to pickup or actuate (due to loss of auxiliary voltage or relay
internal failure) or your breaker VCB-SP1 did not trip (due to loss of DC or mechanical failure), what is
your next line of protection?

Breaker MVSG1 should trip next if, for some reason, VCB-SP1 failed to trip for a fault downstream of VCB-
SP1. R-MVGS1 should have adequate time-delay to allow Relay R-VCB.SP1 to pickup and trip VCB-SP1.
This means relay R-VCB.SP1 and relay R-MVGS1 should have adequate Coordination Time Interval (CTI) so
that R-MVGS1 will not nuisantly trip MVSG1 breaker for a fault downstream of VCB-SP1.

Now, your ETAP sequence of operation is fine, because it shows that R-MVGS1 has sufficient time delay to
allow R-VCB.SP1 to pickup first (at 0.047 sec) before R-MVGS1 picks up at 0.875 sec. for a fault
downstream of breaker VCB-SP1. R-MVGS1 serves as your "BACKUP PROTECTION" for R-VCB.SP1 for a
fault downstream of breaker VCB-SP1.

My only comment is that the CTI between R-VCB.SP1 and R-MVGS1 is high at 0.83 sec. Select a lower time
dial for R-MVGS1 to limit the CTI to near 0.2 or 0.3 sec.

ETAP shows that your breaker VCB-SP1 tripped before MVSG1 breaker. ETAP only showing you that
sequence of event if the backup protection R-MVGS1 will work if R-VCB.SP1 or MVSG1 breaker fails to
check your coordination. It also shows you that R-VCB.SP1 or MVSG1 breaker will not nuisantly pickup or
trip respectively. In reality, if VCB-SP1 successfully tripped and cleared the faulty circuit, then relay R-
VCB.SP1 resets and MVSG1 breaker will not trip.

Coordination is about ensuring that your primary protection picks/trips the associated breaker and your
backup protection/breaker will not nuisantly trip. ETAP is merely SHOWING YOU THE COORDINATION
BETWEEN YOUR PRIMARY AND BACKUP PROTECTION.

Hope this helps.

cc. Bren Andaya

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 Reply
1
7 mins

Jeff De Castro ok sir, thank you for your very informative explanation. now i know from the start i
thought that my procedure was wrong not knowing the exact meaning of sequence analyzer
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Power System Protection Studies and Relay
Coordination
CASE STUDY : Protection Co-ordination Study

In any power system netowrk, protection should be designed such that protective relays
isolate the faulted portion of the network at the earliest, to prevent equipment damage,
injury to operators and to ensure minimum system disruption enabling continuity of
service to healthy portion of the network.
When relays meant to protect specific equipments, transmission/distribution
lines/feeders or primary zone protective relays, do not operate and clear the fault in their
primary protection zone, backup relays located in the backup zone, must operate to
isolate the fault, after providing sufficient time discrimination for the operation of the
primary zone relays.
The protective relays must also be able to discriminate between faulted conditions,
normal operating conditions and abnormal operating conditions and function only for
the specific protection for which they are designed, without operating for any normal
and short term acceptable abnormal events for which they are not intended to act and
provide protection.
The term or phrase relay coordination therefore covers the concept of discrimination,
Selectivity and backup protection as explained in the foregoing discussion. Further the
coordination is not confined only to relays and equipment operating characteristics, but
also includes other protective device characteristics such as Fuse, MCB's, Circuit
Breakers as applicable.
Relay coordination calculation module must consider the operating characteristics of the
relays, normal operating and thermal or mechanical withstand characteristics of the
equipments and must determine the optimum relay settings to achieve the objectives
stated to protect the equipments and to ensure continuity of power supply to healthy part
of network.
Apart from the fault or short circuit conditions, protection system must also be designed
to provide protection against thermal-withstand limits, motor stalling, negative sequence
current with-stand limits, protection against abnormal frequencies, and protection
against unbalance operating conditions as applicable to various equipments and
operating situations.
Frequency relay settings can be determined by using a dynamic simulation tool, such as
transient stability analysis.