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SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlange 5
thread794371342
Iamusingan8"150#ASMEB16.5Blindflangewitha1/2"NPTconnectiondrilled&tappeddirectlyintotheflange3"off
center.IambeingtoldtheFlangeisnolongeranASMEFlangeandthatcalculationsarerequired.Idisagreeforseveral
reasons,
1.)TheFlatheadformulasinUG34don'tchangewhenthere'saholeadded.TheadditionoftheholeisaddressedinUG39,
sowhywouldthethicknessofanASMEflangechange?
2.)ASMEB16.5allowsholeslessthan31/2"tobeaddedtoan8"blindflangetocreateareducingflangeusingthepublished
press/Temprating.Idon'tseewhythiscan'tstillapplytosmallholesthatarelocatedoffcenterandexemptfromreinfperUG
39.
3.)ThedesigninquestionsisexemptfromReinforcementperUG39&UG36(c)(3)whichimpliesthematerialremovedisnot
enoughtoaffecttheintegrityofthepartwiththehole.Whywouldthisbedifferentonaflange?
4.)WheredoesSect.VIIIDiv.1orB16.5saythataflangethicknesscalculationsisrequiredwhenaholeisaddedtoanASME
BlindFlange.
Repliescontinuebelow
ASMESimulationAnalysisforPressureVessels MinimizingPressureDropinCastandMoldedParts
THISWEEKINMACHINERY:Hobbing,Hybrid ThisWeekinMachinery:MillTurnControlUpdates,
Multitasking,DeepHoleDrillingandMore ACO2LaserandDeepHoleDrilling
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9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips
ItisindeednolongeraB16.5flange,becausethatstandarddoesnotallowforoffcenterholesinablindflange.Ifyouare
usingthisinASMESectionVIII,Division1construction,youwouldstillbepermittedtocalculatethethicknessoftheflangeon
thebasisthatyoudescribed.
Bayardwv
Doingaquicksearchforoffsettappedblindflangeswithgooglecameupwiththisthreadhereatengtips.
http://www.engtips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=261110
Mightbeusefultoyou.Onceyoucheckthatthread,usethefunctionatthetopforsimilarthreadsandyoumightgetclearer
insighttoyourquestion.
Regards,
Thankseveryone.thisleadsmetoanotherquestion.Ididruncalc'sperUG34butmyproblemisthatI'musingaSpiralWound
Gasket&IntermediateBolts,SA193B8MCl.2.TheActualboltloadislessthantheRequiredBoltLoad.Iwouldnothavepicked
uponthathadInotruntheUG34Calc.
B16.5,5.3.2allowstheuseofintermediateboltsprovidedtheuserverifiestheabilitytoseatthegasketandmaintainasealed
jointunderoperatingconditions.OurpreviousLeadengineerdeterminedthataslongasthevesselwashydrotestedwiththe
serviceboltsandidenticalgasketandthejointdidnotfailwehavemettheintermediateboltrequirements.ShouldIassume
thatthisnolongerapplieseither?
Iforgottoaskinmylastreply,WHEREinASMEB16.5orSect.VIIIDiv.1doesitstatethatonceanoffcenterholeisaddedto
ablindflangeitsnolongeranASMEflange?
bayardwv,TGS4hitittothenail(asusual ).
Todirectlyansweryourfirstquestion,VIII1(bymeansofUG44)allowstheuseoffittingstolistedstandard(B16.5included)
B16.5flangesonlyallowholesinthecenterrefertoB16.5table6.
IguessonecouldsayI'mplayinggameswiththewordingbutTable6,Note1,doesn'tspecificallystate"oncenter",therefore
itisassumedandassumptionsarenotfact.InadditionTable6isSpecifictoReducingFlanges,andthisisnotthepurposeof
thisoffsethole.Somyquestionis.....WheredoesthelatesteditionsofASMEB16.5orASMESectionVIII,Div.1,clearlystate
thatablindflangeisnolongeranASMEB16.5flangeafteraholehasbeenplacedoffcenter?
B16.5,paragraph6.3.2.
6.3.2ofthe2013edtisaboutraisedtoflatfaceconversionyousureTGS4?
Twoquestions.
1)isablindflangeclassifiedasafittingasperB16.5?
2)Ifitisclassifiedasafittingthenwould6.12.2qualifyfortappingablindflangeasinmakinganAuxiliaryConnection(which
IMHOitis)
JusttryingtofigureoutifItoohavetoraisequestionsforalltheOffsettappedblindsthatwehavebeenusinginourtesting
program.Notonefailedyet.
Astheysay.Curious.
6.2.3mymistype.
Quote(ASMEB16.5,2013Edition)
6.2.3ReducingFittings.Centertocontactsurfaceorcentertoflangeedgedimensionsforallopeningsshallbethe
sameasthoseofstraightsizefittingsofthelargestopening.Thecontactsurfacetocontactsurfaceorflangeedgeto
flangeedgedimensionsforallcombinationsofreducersandeccentricreducersshallbeaslistedforthelargeropening.
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9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips
Thecentertoflangeedgesentenceismyjustification.
Isupposethatitispossiblethatyoucouldarguethatyouarecreatinganeccentricreducerwithoutahub...
Cuemaster64Idon'tthinkthatthisisanissueofsafety,butoneofcompliancewiththeStandard.
IsthereanywayIcanprovethataventconnectionlocatedofcenter,exemptfromreinforcementperUG39canusetheB16.5
ratings?
MyjustificationistheB16.5addressesholesinblindflangesforuseasareducingflange.Thisisnottheintentofatappedvent
hole.
Sect.VIIIUG34allowsB16.5blindflangestobeusedasflatheads.NowheredoesitsayifaholeisaddedtheB16.5ratings
don'tapply.
InregardstheresponsefromTGS4,howcanIarguethatwe'recreatinganoffcentereccentricreducerwithoutahubwhen
6.2.3issayingthecenteroftheopeningand/orcentertoflangeedgedistancehastobethesameasthelargestopening?
...andhereIgoagainwithyetanotherquestion.....6.2.3istoaddresstherequireddimensionsforReducingFittings.Itdoes
notapplythetheholelocationinaReducingBlindflange,sonowI'mbacktomyquestionwheredoesB16.5statethatanozzle
holehastobelocatedoncenter?
....wouldanyoneagreewiththat?
Thisisobviouslyanangelsdancingontheheadofapinargument.ClearlythesmallsingleventholeisOKregardlessWHERE
intheflangeitisplaced.Thequestionisn'twhetherornottheresultingpartisadequatelystrong,orsafe,butwhetherornotit
iscompliantwiththetextofB16.5.
Nowwhenyoustartaddingmultipleholes,thingsgetmoreinteresting.AndwhenyouuseASMEVIIIappendix2andthebasic
designoftheB16.5flangewithoutholesfails,whereareyounow?
ThenIwouldfollowtherulesforopeningsinFlatHeads,thesameasIwouldiftheheadweredesignedasaflatcoverperUG
34.
Thatspartofmylogic,UG34fomulascalculateflatheadswithandwthoutholesexactlythesameway.Theadditionof
holeshasnothingtodowiththerequirementsofdesigningaheadinUG34,sowhywoulditeffecttheASMEB16.5
requirements.TheadditionofandrequirementsforholesinaflatcoverareaddressedinUG39.IftheholesaddedtotheBlind
FlangerequirereinforcementperUG39thenthatswhenithastobedesignedperU34.
Unfortunately,forcompliancewithB16.5,anyholeinablindflangemakesitareducingflange.Thisstandardsimplydoesn't
haveaprovisionforwhatyouaretryingtodo.Doesn'tmakeitwrongorunsafe,justnotcompliantwiththisparticular
standard.moltenmetal'scommentisbangon.
IfforwhateverreasonyouwerestuckwithneedingtouseaB16.5flange,thenyoursolerecoursewouldbetoapproachthe
CodeCommitteewithaproposalforanadditionofaclausepermittingventholes(small)inanoffcentrelocation.Seethe
SectioninB16.5Titled"CorrespondenceWithTheB16Committee"onpgexofthe2013Edition.Ifyourneedisurgent,you
mayqualifyfora"Case".YoucouldalsoattendthemeetingsB16.5fallsunderB16SubcommitteeC.Thenextmeetingis
March2326inVegascontactthesecretaryforadditionaldetails.
"ThenIwouldfollowtherulesforopeningsinFlatHeads..."
Exactly!Thereisnothing'magic'aboutB16.5flanges,otherthantheyarepreengineered,readilyavailable,andcheap.Calcit,
addyouroffsethole[withreinf.ifthecalc'sshowitnecessary,andgrindoffthe"ANSI/ASMEB16.5"stampingontherim.
bayardwv,
Rigidityiswhatitaccountsforaflangedesigntopreventleak.Ifyoucomparehowmuchareacanberemovedwithinthe"y"
dimensionofasliponflangewithasmallholeremovedinyourblind,youcanforsuredoingnothinginyourcaseandIcan
guaranteeitwillbefine.Wehavesomanyrealcasesfromnumerousprojects,even3nozzlesonablind,neverbeena
problemorconcern.
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9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips
KeepinmindtheflatheadreinforcementcalculationUG39isnotreallygoodforblindbecauseitdoesnottakerigidityinto
consideration.UG39aswellasUG37,allowslargedeformationbecausethatisnotaconcern.However,forflangeandblind,
deformationorrigidityisamajorconcernmorethanstressanalysis.ThatiswhyyoudonotuseformulainAppendix2toverify
standardB16.5/B16.47flanges.ThesestandardflangesarerigidenougheventhoughtheyfailAppendix2.
Toletyourselffeelandsleepbetter,do(1)comparewiththeareainasliponflangewithastandardpipeinstalledwithin"y'
dimension.(2)makesuretheholeisinsidethestandardpipediameter(3)runtheheadreinforcementcalcperUG39.Youcan
useweldoletorreducerifyouliketogainmorearea.Padisfine.Inyoucase,youneednothing.
Andwaitforyearsuntilsomeoneinventsbetterapproach.
KindlygothroughthebelowlinkinwhichHSBinterpretationregardingopeningonblindflangeisavailable..
Ihopethiswillhelpyou...
http://www.hsbglobalstandards.com/uploadedFiles/CTWeb/AllImages/PP199906.pdf
Bmechz
I'mcompletelyperplexedthatmanycodefabricatorsarebuildingcodevesselsusingUG34&UG39astheirdesignbasisfor
addingsmalloffsetconnectionsonblindflangeswithoutprovidingcalc's,andIcannotfindacodecaseorinterpretation
addrssingOFFSETnozzles.
Speakingasonefabricator,wewouldbesupplyingcalcsforsuchasituation.Ifthedesignconditionsareanywherenearthe
B16.5flangeratings,thenastandardB16.5blindflangewouldlikelyfailthecalcs,andwewouldresorttofabricatingacustom
blindflangefromthickerplate.
Justonefabricatorspeaking...
My2cents,
Let'sputasidewhatthecodesaid,consideraflathead(blindflange),underpressure,mostdeflectionisatthecenter,and
stress,ofcoursenotconsideringboltingloadaroundtheedges.Ifasmallopeningwith/withoutitsreinforcementcanbeplaced
atthecenter,whycancan'tthesamebeplacedoffthecenter?wherethereislessstress,hencelesscompensationrequired
fortheremovedmaterial.Hencesafer?
Idoagreeonceflangedimensionismodified,itisnolongeraB16.5flange,hencecustomcalculation.ButIbelieveweallhave
seenvent/instrumentholesdrilledfromthesideoftheflange,inbetweentwoholdholes.Howwouldyoudoyoucalculationfor
thiscase?
WoulditnotbeanAuxiliaryConnectionasCuemasternoted?
IfB16.5allowsyoutodrill&tapthroughthesideofafittingwhywoulditnotallowdrilling&tappingthroughtheblindflange?
Aretheynotbothsubjecttothesamepressures?
6.12.1PipeThreadTapping.Holesmaybe
tappedinthewallofafittingifthemetalisthick
enoughtoallowtheeffectivethreadlengthspecified
inFig.3.Wherethreadlengthisinsufficientorthe
tappedholeneedsreinforcement,abossshallbeadded.
Onlyproblemwiththatis6.12.4requiresa3/4"connectionforan8"fittingsothe1/2"connectionwouldnotbecompliantwith
B16.5,
Cheers,
DD
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9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips
Dekdeedifferentthings.AndnoonethinksthatwhattheOPproposedwouldn'tbefine.It'sacomplianceissue,notasafety
issue.
WouldntthisbeaperfecttopicforaninterpretationtotheB16.5committee?
I'dsayit'sabouttimeB16.5addressedthisissue,especiallysincesomeoftheB16.5flangesfailtheAppendix2calcwhenitis
usedasanalternativemeanstodeterminewhetherornotoffcentreormultiplesmalltappingsareaproblemornot.
IsubmittedanASMEinterpretationrequestyesterdayafternoon.I'llposttheirresponse.Thankyoueveryoneforyour
commentsandsuggestions.
bayardwvexcellent.Thisishowprogressismade.Wewouldallappreciateanupdate(evenifittakes1+year(s)).Thanksfor
notsuccumbingtothedefaultpositionofcomplainingbutnotdoinganythingaboutitbutforactuallytakingmattersintoyour
ownhandsandtakingaction.ThisishowtheCodesandStandardsCommitteesaresupposedtoact.
I'llsecondTGS4'scommentary.Itisveryeasytositbackandwhineaboutanissueinthecode.Itisafargreaterpublic
servicetofollowupandwriteacoherentrequesttotheCodeCommitteeinvolvedto(hopefully)provokesomeaction.
Welldone,bayardwv!
UPDATE:asoftoday,MondayNov.10,2014,myASMEinterpretationrequeststatusis...
OutforSCBallottheinterpretationiscurrentlyballotedbytheSubcommittee.
IwasabletoaddressmycurrentproblembychangingthespiralwoundclosuregasketfromaCGIstyletoanLSIstylewhich
hasaminimumseatingstress("Y")of5,000vstheCGIstressof10,000.ThisallowedtheASMEB16.5flangetomeetthe
requiredcodecalcs.
bayardwv,thanksfortakingthetimetokeepusuptodate.Canyoupostacopyoftheinterpretationyou'verequested?Isthe
questionandresponseavailableonlinesomewhere?
bayardwvwhat'sthetrackingnumber(BC14XXX)?
Anyupdateonthisinterpretation?
Nonews?
Finally,here'sthequestionsubmittedandtheirresponse,,,
Here'sthequestionIsubmitted...
AreminimumthicknesscalculationsperUG34(c)(2)inSectionVIII,Division1requiredifanASMEB16.5orB16.47circular
blindflange,usedasanunstayedflathead,otherwiseconformingtotherequirementsofUG34(c)(1),hasaholeaddedoff
centerthatmeetstherequirementsofUG39(a)andthenozzleopeningsizeisexemptfromreinforcementperUG36(c)(3)?
HereisthereplyIreceived...
Question(1).IfaB16.5orB16.47blindflangeismodifiedinamannerthatisnotcoveredbythosestandards,may
pressure/temperatureratingsofthesestandardsbeusedinaccordancewithUG44?
Reply(1).No.
Question(2).InthesituationdescribedinQuestion1,wouldcalculationsusingthedesignprovisionsofUG34andUG39be
required?
Reply(2).Yes.
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9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips
Unfortunate,thatthequestionanswerthatyoureceivedisunlikethequestionthatyouasked.However,thespecificquestion
thatyouaskedwouldlikelybeconsideredtobe"consulting".
This,tome,highlightstheneedtobeattendingtheCodeCommitteemeetingswheretheseissuesaregoingtobeaddressed.
Frankly,ifyouhadaninterestintheanswer,thenyoushouldbe there
whentheissueisdiscussed.
WhatwastheBCitemnumber(thetrackingnumberthatyouwouldhavebeenprovided)?
TGS4,whydoyouthinkthe"questionanswerwasunlikethequestion[he]asked"?Itwasreworded,yesbutitanswersthe
originalquestionwhileprovidingadditionalinformationforfutureuses(suchasdifferentmodificationstoB16.5flanges).
TheItem#forthisinquiryis141803.UnfortunatelyIwasn'tawarethatIcouldattendthemeeting.Iwouldtrulyenjoyseeing
howthisprocessworks,aswellasquestionthereply.
Ialsodon'tunderstandwhytheyrewordedmyquestioninawaythatnolongeraddressedmykeypoints.Idon'tcompletely
disagreewithkeyen'scommentshoweverIstillplanonresubmittingwithdifferentwording.
Thankyouforthetrackingnumber.Indeed,themeetingsareopentothepublic,soanyonecanattend.Anditisencouraged
thatanyonewhohassucharequestforinterpretationstoattendtopresenttheircaseandbepartofthesolution.
See,theASMECodesareessentiallyrunasaconsensuscommitteeofvolunteers,whoworkinindustryjustlikeyouandme.
Eachindividualhasbecomeinvolvedfortheirownuniquereason,butoftengotstartedwithasingleissue,suchasthisone.
Thewaythesystemworksisthateveryonegetsinvolved,makeslogical,yetpassionateargumentsfortheirissue,theirpeers
listenandrespondaccordingly.Myexperienceisthatthegroupofengineersareextremelyexperienced,andveryopenminded
andfair.Theyonlywantwhatisinthebestinterestsofpublicsafety.
Toseewhenmeetingsare,gotohttps://cstools.asme.org/csconnect/CommitteePages.....Thefuturemeetingslinkis
onthetopleft.ThenextmeetingsareinAtlantainafewweeks.Youcanregistertoattend(free)via
https://www.asme.org/events/boilerpressurevessel....
Thequestion1theygaveyouissobroadthattheanswercouldnotbeanythingotherthan"no".
Toreallyansweryourquestion,thecommitteewouldhavetorewritethestandardtodefinetheconditionsunderwhichoff
centredholes,ormultiplesmallerholesetc.wouldbeconsideredsafemodificationswithoutrequiringadditionalcalculationsor
aderatingoftheblindflange.Thatwouldbealotofworktodoproperly,sotheeasierandquickeransweris"no,readthe
standardaswritten".
Clearlyitdoesn'tmattertotheblindflangewhetherasmallholesuchastheoneconsideredintheOP(a1/2"NPTtappingin
an8"blindflange)isputinthedeadcentreofablindflangeoranywheresuchthatthesmallhole'sODisentirelywithintheID
oftheflange'sraisedface.Itwouldbeeasyenoughforthecommitteetoestablishwhetherthatisalsotrueatthemaximum
permittedholesizewhichthestandardpermitsforanoncentreholeinastandard(flat)ratherthanahighhubblindflange.
Butthenthere'stheissueofmultipleholes,anditstartstogetfairlycomplexfairlyquickly.Isitasimplematteroftotalhole
area?Iwouldimaginethatifthetotalareaoftheholesisnolargerthantheareaofthelargestholepermittedoncentre,
multipleholeswouldn'tmatterwherevertheywereplaced.Butgettingthatwrittenintothestandardisalottoask,Iguess.So
insteadofusingengineeringjudgment,alotofunnecessarycalculationsandworkaroundswillbedone.Soitgoesitisthe
2ndedgeofthedoubleedgedswordofcodesandstandards.
moltenmetal,perfectlysaid!
[PostDeleted]
Wouldthisinterpretationapplytothecaseofalugbeingwelded/screwedtothesideofablindflangeforsayamanwaydavit?
IamunabletolocateanypartofB16.5thatspecificallyincludespermissiontoweldalugonthesideofblindflange,althoughI
havebeenaccusedmanytimesofhavinga"boylook"forthings.
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9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips
Holesdrilledbetweenstudholes,foruseasorificetaps,jackscrewlocationsetc.,canbeaccommodatedwithincertainlimits.
Whatarethoselimits?NotsureB16.5givesthoroughanswerstothosequestionseither.
Stuffweldedtothesideoftheflangewhichputsnomeaningfulloadontheflangeinservice,shouldnotcauseanyproblemsas
longastheweldingprocessdoesn'taffectthemetallurgyoftheflangeitself,i.e.weldsdoneperASMEIXandexamined
properlyshouldn'tbeaproblem.Littledifferentthanboltingthingstotheextendedthreadsofacoupleoftheflangestuds.
Quote(motenmetal)
Holesdrilledbetweenstudholes,foruseasorificetaps,jackscrewlocationsetc.,canbeaccommodatedwithincertain
limits.Whatarethoselimits?NotsureB16.5givesthoroughanswerstothosequestionseither.
OrificeflangesarecoveredinASMEB16.36.DrillingholesinaB16.5flangebetweenstudholeswillmakeyourflangenot
compliantwithB16.5
Quote(keyen)
OrificeflangesarecoveredinASMEB16.36.DrillingholesinaB16.5flangebetweenstudholeswillmakeyourflange
notcompliantwithB16.5
bydoingsomakeyourflangenotcompliantwithB16.5buttoB16.36,butisn'tB16.36flangehasthesamepressure
temperatureofB16.5?
Rotating Measurements?
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