THE HIDDEN CAUSE OF KURMA AVTAAR

SHRILA PRABHUPADA always said that there is always a

hidden cause of lord's incarnation and kurma avtaar is not
exception to above - this avtaar occured not only to help surs or
demi gods but also to reveal the eternal truth that it is supreme
personality of godhead himself who holds the devotee along his
whole spirtual path ,as kurma avtaar holds mandhara( man is mind
and dhara is single line of water in hindi/sanskrit) this means our
mind concentrated for one destination- to serve the lord , to love
him without any selfish purpose etc.
And each stage in sagar manthan corresponds to parallel stage of a
person leading spirtual path (Beginning with ocean of milk till
attainment of immortality) as follows-
ocean of milk is same as human conciousness it is same as cerebro
spinal fluid in mind with almost same concentration of salts.The
mind is like an ocean while the thoughts and emotions are the
waves in the ocean .
Mandhara, the mountain symbolises concentration. The word
Mandhara is made up of two words Mana (mind) and Dhara (a
single line) which means holding the mind in one line.
This is possible only by concentration.
The Devas and Asuras represent the positives and negatives
respectively of one's personality. The participation of both the
Devas and the Asuras signifies that when one is seeking bliss
through spiritual practice, one has to integrate and harmonise both
the positive and negative aspects and put both the energies to work
for the common goal.
Mount Mandhara was upheld by Lord Vishnu as a Kurma
(tortoise). The tortoise here symbolises the withdrawal of the
senses into oneself (just as a tortoise withdraws its head and limbs
into its shell, they are also five in number as our senses are five in
number) as one practices mental concentration and meditation or
contemplation which infact is possible only by krishna
conciuosness.
Only humans have five senses and are elligible to do bhakti.Senses
begins from virus which has half sense ie modern science
considers it to be a bridge between living and non-living as it is
living (starts dividing) when inside body and is inactive when
outside body. examples are HIV , Comman cold etc.Thats why
there is no cure for them.
Then bacteria has one sense that is only it can feel touch examples
are typhoid, tuberculosis etc.
Plants are having two senses as they can smell also(exhale oxygen
and inhale carbon di oxide)these do not have brains as it will be
very difficult for them to live at one place(they will get irritated).
Then ants have three senses, higher developed creatures like honey
bee,some fishes have four senses(they can 'see' also). The memory
begins from fishes.(for eg)As recent findings say golden fishes
have memory of only three seconds. This is the reason they never
come to know that they are living in aquarium and not huge ocean.
Then animals have five senses in which we humans have fully
developed senses along with proper sense of speech.
So lord kurma represents the human being who has withdrawn his
heart from enjoyment given by these five senses and using them
only to develop Krishna conciousness.
As lord himself is holding mana on his back-It is same like giving
one's heart to krsna where he controls our mind and led ourself
towards our final goal. Vasuki symbolises desire. Vasuki used in
the churning of the ocean denotes that the desire.
Devas and the demons held desire (to seek immortality) as a rope
and churned the mind with the help of concentration in krishna
conciousness which lord kurma symbolises and withdrawal of the
senses. Desire, if not controlled ,will overpower and destroy an
individual. Now this desire is to be controlled by holding it from
both sides.(Snakes are symbols of desire like we see many snakes
coiling around golden pots ,diamonds etc,thus they represent
desires of material things. People who die having money , gold in
mind are reborn as snakes and then they remain attached to
therehidden treasures. Thus greed is very dangerous things.
In Book "NECTAR OF DEVOTION" SHRILA PRABHUPADA
SAYS(QUOTING PADMA PURAN):Pure devotional service in
krishna conciousness is the highest enlightment and when such
enlightment is there , it is just like blazing forest fire,killing all
inauspicious snakes of desire." Thus snakes represents desire.
In vishnu sahastranama one of the lord's name is
SHESHASHEAYE meaning one who lies on the grand snake
sheshnaag internal meanning is one who is above materialistic
desires or death which snake(sheshnaag) represents.
Thus holding snale from both sides means controlling our
materialistic desires.

Controlling a desire is equivalent to vairagya or dettachment from

materialistic things.This VAIRAGYA is of two types:
1.Positive dettachment or vairagya:It means when one possess
materialistic thing but do not have attachment for it. Like king
janak ,king dhruv who had whole empire to rule but they were not
attached to any thing inside. Demi-gods holding tail of vasuki also
represents positive vairagya as leaving enjoyment of heaven- they
were churning ocean for attaining immortality. Thus in krisna
conciousness one should not get attached to any thing which takes
us away from our goal even any addiction is not allowed. This can
be seen in Iskcon like four regulative principles, also shrila
prabhupada forbade to drink tea as it contains caffeine which can
lead to addiction. Thus even a small addiction will remove positive
vairagya and can hamper our spirtual progress.

2.Negative dettachment or vairagya:It means when one does not

have the materialistic thing in need and also does not have desire
for it beacuse of his perfect knowledge or bhakti or devotion of
lord. Like sudama (sakaha of krishna) never demanded anything
from shree krishna he came back to his home without asking for
anything even he knew that his wife and sons are dying of hunger.
While going back home (from dwarka) he was thanking lord krisna
for not giving him any materialistic thing , thinking lord has done
this so that he does not get attached to any materialistic thing.This
was his level of spirtual development!!!king rantidevis another
example .This is represented by asurs or demons holing mouth of
vasuki.
Thus this means when a person becomes complete with positive
and negative vairagya his journey towards supreme personality of
godhead actually begins.
Then first thing which came out of ocean is poison which was
consumed by lord shiva.
Lord Shiva symbolises the ascetic principle. His role in this story
as the consumer of poison suggests that one can deal with the early
problems of spiritual life by cultivating the qualities of Lord Shiva,
namely, courage, initiative, willingness, discipline, simplicity,
detachment, compassion, pure love and asceticism. He also
represents one's guru as he is the highest vaishnav according to
Shrila Prabhupad . In ISKON these habbits are developed from
beginning and all the prabhu ji who have taken initiation have to
cultivate these habbits.
The poison also symbolises pain and suffering(due to previous
births bad karma) which occurs during early stage of spirtual path
and this can only be lowered with the help of one's guru and strong
faith in him and lord.
The various precious objects that come out of the ocean during the
churning stand for the psychic or spiritual powers (Siddhis) which
one gains as he progresses spiritually from stage to stage. The
seeker should be careful about these powers as they can hamper his
progress unless he uses them judiciously, not for selfish gains but
for others' welfare.
This energy or siddhis can be lost in two ways removing one from
the krishna conciousness:
1. One can ascend to higher planet and become demigod for
example becoming indra,varun etc.
2. Using these siddhis in this world only like many dharama gurus
these days (or so called babas) are using their spirtual energy
interfering with the plan of lord and thus thrown back to lower
positions.
Along with these siddhis many auspicious materlistic things also
follow.For example Kalp vriksha comes out which is Tree of
desire thus all materlistic desires(these are previous births desires
which are lying in antarman like maps but the original bhakta do
not have any material desires) are fullfilled.
Thus again one needs to control his inner self and move forward.
So one should again develop strong positive vairagya in this stage
and should not get attached with any of these things.
This is the reason why the Gods and demons distributed these
objects as they did not want to lose sight of their original aim
which was to gain immortality. Shree krsna says many loose path
while comming to me during this stage as many use their spirtual
energy for their selfish purpose and loose sight of their final aim.
This reminds me of famous shalok by SANT TULSIDAS :
PRABHUTA KO SABH KOHI CHAHE
PRABHU CHAHE NA KOYI
TULSI JO PRABHU KO CHAHE
APHE PRABHUTA HOYI
MEANING:
EVERYBODY LIKES QUALITIES OF GOD LIKE HIS GRACE ,HIS SYMPATHY
HIS LOVE AND TRIES TO TAKE BENEFIT OF THAT,BUT,NOBODY LIKE
SUPREME
PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD HIMSELF. IF ANYBODY LOVES SUPREME
PERSONALITY
OF GODHEAD(SHREE RAM) THAN AUTOMATICALLY HIS GRACE WILL FALL
UNTO HIM
WITHOUT ANY EFFORT.

Mohini symbolises delusion of the mind in the form of (or

originating from) pride. It is the pride of achievement to which the
asuras or the demons succumbed and thus lost sight of their goal.
Pride and egoism are the last hurdles one has to overcome in
spiritual life before experiencing self-realisation. This is final stage
where all delusion can occur many fall down due to abhiman or
ahankar they have in their mind of the spirtual progress they have
made.
SHRI CHAITANYA MAHAPRABHU
IN
SHRI CHAITANYA-CHARITAMRITA SAYS
"To enable one to chant the holy name of lord always ,a person
should be humbler than the grass in he street ,devoid of all desire
for personal honor, and ready to offer others all respectful
obeisances"
Lakshmi represents universal enrichment which comes as an
 automatic by-product of the internal self-realization or Amrita. and
in end amrit represnts immortality which can be achieved only
after entering eternal abode of supreme personality of godhead. So
all the products in sagar manthan represnts some stage of spirtual
path but in all of them role played by lord
KURMA is most significant as controlling our mind(mana) is most
difficult task and it can be concentrated only and only with the help
of lord himself.
So we must become very sincere towards developing krishna
conciousness and regularly chant the mahamantra of lord which
will concentrate our mind towards our final aim -the lotus feet of
sri krisna.!!!!!!!!
HARE KRISNA HARE KRISNA KRISNA KRISNA HARE HARE
HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.!!!!!
This poor proselytizing and lack of capability to explain concepts means that many ppl believe
that Madhwas are satvikka souls and others are rajasika or tamasika.

And only Madhwas are eligible for salvation.This is one reason why our philosphy has not
spread well , and we have to thanks the Hare Krishnas for making Madhwa popular.

The above misunderstanding resulted in a big controversy in Karnataka when one

Poornachandra Tejaswi , grandson of National Poet of Karnataka Kuvempu wanted the name
of Madhwa removed from the Nada Geethe (State Anthem) as he had condemned dalits to
eternal damnation !!!

The general impression is Madhwa brahmins are sattvika souls and dalits the lowest of the low
are tamaskika souls.

Its nothing of that sort !!!

A tamasika soul may be born in a Madhwa brahmin household and a sattvika soul may be born
in a dalit household.

The tripartite classification of souls is different from the caste system.

Its got nothing to do with the caste system.

(#42 (Link))

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Rajasika Souls - 06-19-2005, 04:25 AM

And even among the Rajasika souls , there is a further tripartite classification , as Satva-
Rajasika , Rajo-Rajasika and Tamo-Rajasika.

The Satva-Rajasikas are the ones who believe in the scriptures , but are unable to pursue them
due to lack of determination.Even when they perform Vedic rituals , they perform it incorrectly
due to lack of determination.But due their belief in the scriptures they are rewarded with the
lower heavens.

The Rajo-Rajasikas are most probably the ones who are caught in the secular humanistic and
philanthropic activities and believe that world can be changed by philosphies such as
democracy , communism and other such ideas.They are highly involved in the material plane
and can be said to be very emotional ppl.They are caught in the earthly plane of life.

The Tamo-Rajasikas are the ones who are rewarded with the lower hells for their activities.

(#43 (Link))

G P
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Discrimination intemples - 06-20-2005, 07:51

PM

The reason why Brahmins and non-brahmins are having separate hall for food in Karnataka
temples is not out of evil discriminatory ideas or ego, but due to thefollowing:

Most of the Brahmins are highly regulated in their habits especially when it comes to
cleanliness like taking bath in morning and washing the legs before entering the temples, dont
take meat, birds, insects, fishes etc etc, dont take alchohol and they are the ones who still
follow the vedic rituals that is still persisting in the vedic country.

While on the other hands, not a high percentage of nonbrahmins exists in India who are pure
vegetarians, and dont drink, and especially keep themselves clean. While this varies from
educated class to the uneducated or economically poor class, but in brahmiins, even the most
poor follow their traditions still in SOuth India atleast to the bestof my knowledge.

Everyone superficially look at everything and immediately brahmins, but fail to accept their
faults and fail to correct on what they lack also.

Howmuch ever you may be a brahmin, still nobody other than the temple priests are allowed to
touch the Deities and sacred idols and things in temples. There is no discrimination on this.

Its easy to pinpoing and find fault, but difficult to do a self analysis.

(#44 (Link))
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A peculiar people - 10-02-2005, 12:19 AM

I find Madhwas to be a peculiar kind of people.They themselves have done nothing to preach
his philosophy.But when somebody tries to do that they nitpik on them over absolutey silly
things and and crate a furore.All this when Madhva himself laid a lot of emphasis on spreading
the light of knowledge in the society.

For example , a many years aga a famous film star in India by name Rajinikanth , made a film
on the great dvaita scholar Sri Raghavendra Swami and made him very popular amongst the
masses.Much of the traffic to Mantralaya is due to him than due to anybody else.He was
resurrected from obscurity and his greatness was imprinted on the social consciousness of the
south indians.

Yet orthodox madhwas picked up a quarrel with him over the depiction of Sri Raghavendra's
wife in the movie which was said to be inaccurate , while they continued to enjoy the benefits
of the pilgrim traffic.

Similarly now Prabhupada has become the target for this clowns.They are angry with him for
absolutely silly reasons.

1.He did not say correctly that it was not Arjuna who was the first to see the World-Vision but
rather he was first among his class.
2.He wrongly says that moon is a star..etc

but they seem to have let go of more fundamental problems like the HKs unwilling to explicitly
accept the three-fold classification of souls and eternal damnation .HKs have not rejected them
but dont seem to flaunt them either when these are important points of M's philosophy.

(#46 (Link))
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D
The Larger Question - 10-02-2005, 02:02 PM

The Larger Question

In effect there is a larger question that remains unanswered.

Is a philosophy only for the philsosophers ? Should not a philosophy benefit the masses ?

Krishna preached the BG for all mankind.Mankind was to benefit from it.Not just the sattvic
souls who are guaranteed liberation.That Krishna favours human welfare over above just the
salvation of the sattvic souls can be realised from a number of verses.

"Though shall wage a terrible war and encourage men to undertake all kinds of human works"

"The intelligent should perform nishkama kama , but not expect the masses to do the same"

"Even the sinfulest of men can attain to me by following this path"

Thus mankind was to benefit from this knowledge.

Now clearly Madhwa meant his philosophy to be made available to all mankind to help recover
the sattvic souls born elsewhere by "accident of birth".Hence while interpreting the Isha
Upanishad he declares "To darkness they go who are ignorant , to even greater darkness they
go who are addicted to knowledge alone (without socially useful proselytizing)"

Now the divine truth may not be available in all its perfection.Wich is better ? Should a society
be perpetually cast into ignorance rather than be shown half-knowledge ? That it is better to
live in ignorance and darkness rather than living in half-light ? Should we prefer darkness to
little light ?

And we must learn to make the difference between ignorance and falsehood.Ignorance is the
lack of knowldege due to jiva-yogyatha.Falsehood is deliberate calumny spread by the demons
to mislead mankind.Ramanuja could not comprehend the truth in all its glory , as he had his
limitations.But is not better that a society has an advantage of his philosophy rather than live in
the ignorance of advaita ? And is not the dim-light of advaita better than the darkness of
buddhism ? Are we to say truth should be present in all its glory or not at all ? Even a sattvic
soul will benefit from ramanujas philosophy , compared to advaita.Given the proper direction it
will figure out the truth by itself.
Allied powers are not angels yet common sense demanded that we support them over and
above an asuric and evil hitler as democracy is better than the nazi dictatorship.Are we going to
denounce everyone and uphold only the ideal birth-based varnshrama of Madhwa , which is
well-nigh impossible to establish.

We must realise that since mankind is impure ,divine truth cannot manifest in all its full
glory.But we have to accept this and support this partial manifestation of divinity and condemn
asuric philosophies and attitudes.

Of course madhwas are never bothered about this world and are concerned only about
individual salvation.They do not know that their philosophy can benefit the world and lead to
the creation of a divine society full of joy and bliss , harmony reigning supreme and naure and
mankind in perfect balance , the male and female in perfect relationship.

Their main concern is moksha.You dont see a single article or paper dealing with "dvaita
economics" , "dvaita management" , "dvaita education" whereas you can always find plenty of
articles like "advaita &amp; economics" , "advaita &amp; management" , "advaita &amp;
education" .Net result is that advaitins have successfully presented their philosophy as worldy
and world benefitting while the madhwas appear as a bunch of other-worldly ascetics.So more
and more peopel convert to advaita endangering their own salvation and weaking the
nation.That advaita has weakened the nation is unknown to madhwas as they are not concerned
about the nation at all , only their perosnal mukthi.

The world is real and we must also be concerned about this world.Madhwa himself says that
service to the society is the tax we msut pay to enter the kingdom of god.And the highest
service is to establish true knowledge in society.This act performed as an offering to God can
also guarantee individual salvation.Thus individual salvation does not clash with world welfare
, atleast in all forms of vaishnavism.

Now clearly given the highly terse nature of madhwas philosophy and the potential for
misunderstanding , its obvious some easy to understand and lighter version of the philosophy is
to be made available for the welfare of the masses.Given the situation where must of us have to
slog to eke out a living andno time for scriptural study in a rigorous fashion such a need
assumes a high degree of importance.

(A good example of the potential for misunderstanding is the belief all madhwas will get
mukthi and all lower caste ppl are destined for eternal damnation.I ahve seen most people who
make a cursory reading of M's philosophy to have come to such conclusion and have even seen
madhwas who believe so)

It was clearly keeping in mind such a need Chaitanya advented himself on this plane to preach
a simpler version of M's philosophy.His system is most suitable for the hard-working
masses.And given that we have so many fraudulent brahmins and lowe caste ppls with divine
nature , his system of recruiting brahmins from all classes is justified.And according to the
needs of the situation also possibly prevented conversions to Islam.
The activities of HKs dont go against the spirit of madhwas philosophy.Madhwa gave
importance to qualification and not just birth.He held a devoted chandala to be superior to a
worldly minded brahmin.He gives the example of how Jabala was accepted as a brahmin as he
had a pure nature.And since he also stood for the welfare of the socity , we can say chaitanya
only implemented what madhwa gave as a blueprint.

(#47 (Link))

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Continued - 10-02-2005, 02:09 PM

Now Krishna says "na buddhi bedham..." so don't disturb the minds of the masses with too
much of philosophy.Clearly M's system cannot be preached to the masses due to potential for
misunderstanding.So a lighter version of the philosophy such as chaitanya's becomes
necessary.

It therefore becomes our bounden duty to support it.

Rather than leave the society in total darkness.

If HKs were to modify their philosophy to incorporate everything that madhwa said then
nobody will take it and we are back to square one.

(#48 (Link))
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(#49 (Link))
G P
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a

Wrong - 10-04-2005, 12:01 AM

ISKCON has some similarity with Dvaita but there are lots of differences in the concepts of
Tatvavada and gaudiya philosophy. Hence ISKCON cannot claim that they have the approval
of MADHVA.

"TATVAVADA advocates practice of correct understanding (of knowledge) and criticism of

false understanding "

The above quote is approved by Madhva and the eternal, apourusheya Vedas SAY SO.
VEDAS ARE ETERNAL TRUTH. FOLLOWERS OF MADHVA FOLLOW WHAT VEDAS
SAY.

Refer to the following quotes from the Ishavasya Upanishads.

vidyam cavidyam ca yastadvedobhayam saha |

avidyaya mrtyum tirtva vidyaya'mrtamasnute 11

One who knows the correct knowledge, and also criticizes false knowledge, for him, by
criticism of false knowledge (which causes suffering), he overcomes suffering, and by practice
of correct knowledge (which causes enjoyment), he obtains mukti.

All the great Madhva Yatis like Padmanabha Thirtha, Jayathirtha , Vyasaraja Thirtha,
Sripadaraja Thirtha, Raghavendra Thirtha , Vidyamanya Thirtha, the present Vishwesha
Thirtha (Pejawar Mutt) etc are of the same opinion as state above.

Tatvavadis do not have any personal grudges against ISKCON or against any person, but they
denounce the concepts of ISKCON as Wrong understanding will not lead to liberation.
Harish!!! INSTEAD OF TALKING NONSENSE, BE GRATEFUL TO THEM AS THEY
ARE HELPING YOU SEE WHAT IS CORRECT AND WHAT IS WRONG.

(#50 (Link))

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D
To add - 10-04-2005, 01:45 AM

Madhva philosophy is restricted to Brahmanas. A Brahmana should have a proper gotra and
pravara by definition which rules out People like David Frawley.

It follows therefore that Madhva philosophy is not for the entire world, but is reserved for a
subset of the Indian population unlike the HK system where all are welcome. SO you are really
comparing apples and oranges. The only area of conflict here is interpretation of scripture. This
problem is true between any two schools of thought and there is no reason why it should be
covered up in this case.

Cheers

(#52 (Link))

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My reply - 10-04-2005, 05:44 AM

##If you will accept this, you will realize that individual attainment is the most plausible option
you have. Not that you do not have to preach, but if you are targetting global harmony, then
you are way off. ##

Then why did he say that service to society is the tax to be paid to god ? There are social goals
or one can formulate them.

And I am not saying ISKCON is 100% accurate and tallies with M's philosophy.I am saying
have a larger perspective.

Do we see a similar harshness in denouncing Islam and Christianity ? The Isha Upanishad
quote about criticising false knowledge seems to be utilized only for bashing ISKCON.

Is it cowardice at work here ?

The reason most westerneres and even indians believe Madhva was influenced by Nestorian
Christians in the Goa is because ot total lack of criticism of christianity or islam and the heavy
criticism of advaita philosophy and similarities like eternal damnation found in both the
religions.

Even Islam and Christianity are examples of false knowledge , to refuse to acknowledge it and
condemn it is as much a sin , if not more , as not condemning ISKCON.

(#54 (Link))
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please register - 10-04-2005, 05:46 AM

and the two guests are I guess are different people.No time to register or what ?

(#55 (Link))

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get clear - 10-08-2005, 04:02 PM

#BOY!!!! this shows your total lack of acquaintance on Madhva's philosophy. Not that I am
boosting of knowing everything . I too am a neophyte, not an expert :-). #

I am talking about the impression given by maadhvas to westerners.I know Christinaity and
Madhva's philosophy are different.I am not talking about NyayaSudhas denunciation of semitic
religions , I am talking about modern day madhwas and their near silence in condemning
semitic religions and heavy attack on ISKCON.

If you are intelligent enough you will realise that the discussion is about present day madhwa
attitudes towards ISKCON and semitic religions.It seems to be disproportionate.

(#57 (Link))

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Well - 10-09-2005, 02:50 AM

ISKCON too has been harsh on Hinduism, while praising blood-thirsty Islam and Christianity
as valid paths to Krishna. In what way are they different from Madhvas who, as you claim, go
easy on semitic religions but attack their own?

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I agree - 10-09-2005, 03:08 PM

###ISKCON too has been harsh on Hinduism, while praising blood-thirsty Islam and
Christianity as valid paths to Krishna. In what way are they different from Madhvas who, as
you claim, go easy on semitic religions but attack their own? ###

I agree with this point of yours and have bashed ISCKON many times over this point.
(#60 (Link))

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You are right - 10-09-2005, 03:14 PM

Iskconites behave like cranks when it comes to semetic religions.Their extreme hatred for
advaita means that if anybody says God and Soul are different they will worship him.

During the Indo-Pak peace process they invited a pakistani to the iskcon temple in
bangalore.He "worshipped" the shrine and when he was leaving told the media , that the place
was nice but he stuck with his religious beliefs.It was an insult to all vaishnavas.

Krishna says "avajananthi maam mudha"..Fools deride me...this fool derided Krishna and went
aways scot free bcos islam is dualistic and therefore good according to iskconites.