Professional Documents
Culture Documents
2 WESTERN DISTRICT
3 MICHAEL MCKINZY, )
)
4 Appellant, )
)
5 v. ) W.D. No. 81013
)
6 CARLETHA MCKINZY (GASTON), )
)
7 Respondent. )
8 IN THE JACKSON COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT
16TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, DIVISION 43
9 Commissioner David Kimminau, Presiding
10 MICHAEL MCKINZY, )
)
11 Petitioner, )
)
12 v. ) Cause No. 02FC200809-04
)
13 CARLETHA MCKINZY (GASTON), )
)
14 Respondent. )
15 TRANSCRIPT ON APPEAL
16 APPEARANCES:
17 Mr. Michael McKinzy Ms. Sandra Hessenflow
9606 W. 86th Street, Apt. D Attorney at Law
18 Overland Park, KS 66212 4520 Main, Suite 700
Pro Se Kansas City, MO 64111
19 For: Respondent
20
21
22
23 Transcribed by
Shawna L. Anderson, CET
24 Certified Electronic Transcriber
Official Transcription Vendor for
25 Office of State Courts Administrator
1 INDEX
2 MONDAY, JANUARY 9, 2017
3 PAGE
4 Motion for Summary Judgment:
5 RESPONDENT’S EVIDENCE:
6 MICHAEL MCKINZY
Direct Examination by Ms. Hessenflow .............................................................. 11
7
Motion Overruled .................................................................................................... 20
8
2
INDEX
1 (Continued)
2 MONDAY, JANUARY 9, 2017
3 PAGE
4 RESPONDENT’S EVIDENCE:
5 MICHAEL MCKINZY
Direct Examination by Ms. Hessenflow .............................................................. 39
6
7 PETITIONER’S EVIDENCE:
8 CARLETHA GASTON
Direct Resumed Examination by Mr. McKinzy .................................................. 54
9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Hessenflow .............................................................. 91
Redirect Examination by Mr. McKinzy ............................................................ 106
10
11 RESPONDENT’S EVIDENCE:
12 CORRINE MCKINZY
Direct Examination by Ms. Hessenflow ............................................................ 112
13 Cross-Examination by Mr. McKinzy ................................................................ 114
14
PETITIONER’S EVIDENCE:
15
MICHAEL MCKINZY
16 Direct Testimony by Mr. McKinzy ................................................................... 116
Cross-Examination by Ms. Hessenflow ............................................................ 117
17 Further Testimony by Mr. McKinzy ................................................................. 126
18 CARLETHA GASTON
Redirect Resumed Examination by Mr. McKinzy ............................................ 133
19 Recross-Examination by Ms. Hessenflow ......................................................... 144
Further Redirect Examination by Mr. McKinzy ............................................... 166
20
21 RESPONDENT’S EVIDENCE:
22 MICHAEL MCKINZY
Direct Resumed Examination by Ms. Hessenflow ............................................ 168
23
CARLETHA GASTON (RECALLED)
24 Direct Resumed Examination by Ms. Hessenflow ............................................ 211
Cross-Examination by Mr. McKinzy ................................................................ 216
25 Redirect Examination by Ms. Hessenflow ........................................................ 222
3
EXHIBITS
1
RECEIVED
2
PETITIONER’S EXHIBITS:
3
102 ........ Form 14..................................................................................................... 77
4 110 ........ Withholding Order.................................................................................. 137
121 ........ Child Support document .............................................................................--
5 133 ........ Affidavit of Credit ......................................................................................--
134 ........ Affidavit of Credit ......................................................................................--
6 136 ........ Letter ....................................................................................................... 143
137 ........ Letter ....................................................................................................... 143
7 145 ........ Letter ....................................................................................................... 166
162 ........ Respondent’s Asset and Debt Statement .................................................. 60
8 163 ........ Income and Expense Statement of Respondent ....................................... 70
164 ........ UMB Bank Statement............................................................................... 57
9 165 ........ 2015 Bank Statements ................................................................................--
166 ........ Respondent’s 2015 W-2 ........................................................................... 56
10 168 ........ Payment History ..................................................................................... 134
169 ........ Payment History ..................................................................................... 134
11
12 RESPONDENT’S EXHIBITS:
13 1............. Findings, Recommendation, Judgment, Decree of Divorce .......................--
3............. Child Support Printout ............................................................................ 158
14 4............. Entry of Appearance ...................................................................................--
5............. Respondent’s Modification Asset and Debt Statement ............................ 92
15 6............. Petitioner’s Statement of Assets and Debts ............................................ 190
9............. Financial Statement Affidavit.....................................................................--
16 10........... Court case information ...............................................................................--
11........... Letter from Smithsonian ......................................................................... 193
17 13........... Affidavit of Credit by Custodial Parent .....................................................--
14........... Child Support Printout ............................................................................ 159
18 15........... Printout .......................................................................................................--
16........... Motion to Modify .......................................................................................--
19 17........... Affidavit......................................................................................................--
18........... Affidavit......................................................................................................--
20 19........... Petition filed in Federal Court ................................................................ 199
20........... Opinion from 10th Circuit Federal Court of Appeals ............................ 204
21 21........... Printout of all cases filed by Petitioner in various courts ....................... 201
22........... Proposed Modification Decision and Order Nunc Pro Tunc 12/12/07 ......--
22 23........... Administrative Modification Order ............................................................--
25........... Payment History as of 4/13/16 ...................................................................--
23 26........... Delinquent Maintenance, Child Support, Interest Calculation 4/13/16 .....--
27........... Letter ...........................................................................................................--
24 28........... Google Plus profile .....................................................................................--
29........... Payment History Report .............................................................................--
25 30........... Payment History Report .............................................................................--
4
EXHIBITS
1 (Continued)
2 RECEIVED
3 RESPONDENT’S EXHIBITS:
4 31........... Certification filed 7/10/01 ..........................................................................--
32........... Administrative Order ..................................................................................--
5 33........... Billing Statement and Arrearage Notice 11/3/06 .......................................--
34........... Payment History Printout ...........................................................................--
6 36........... Order of Consolidation ...............................................................................--
40........... Motion for Summary Judgment................................................................ 16
7 42........... Pay Stubs ................................................................................................ 118
43........... Property Account Summary ................................................................... 192
8 45........... Email ....................................................................................................... 208
46........... Income and Expense Statement of Respondent ..................................... 101
9 47........... Income and Expense Statement of Respondent (summer months) .......... 99
48........... Income and Expense Statement of Respondent ..................................... 100
10 49........... Income and Expense Statement of Respondent ....................................... 87
50........... Contract for Legal Services .................................................................... 213
11 51........... Western District Court of Appeals decision ........................................... 202
52........... Wage Withholding Statement................................................................. 164
12 53........... Pay Stub .................................................................................................. 121
54........... Motion to Terminate Child Support ......................................................... 47
13 60........... Income and Expense Statement .............................................................. 125
62........... Google website information ................................................................... 187
14 64........... Google website information ................................................................... 179
65........... Letter from Petitioner to President Obama ............................................. 207
15 66........... Scribd.com information .......................................................................... 179
70........... Writ filed against Judge Campbell .............................................................--
16 71........... Court Records ......................................................................................... 196
72........... Docket Entries .......................................................................................... 42
17 75........... Email confirming submission of Respondent’s amended responses ....... 27
76........... Child Support Printout ............................................................................ 161
18 77........... Unidentified ................................................................................................--
78........... Email from Ms. Hessenflow to Mr. McKinzy.......................................... 24
19 79........... Affidavits .................................................................................................. 47
20
o0o
21
22
23
24
25
5
1 (January 9, 2017)
3 02FC200809-04.
5 MR. MCKINZY: Michael McKinzy, appearing for the Petitioner pro se.
14 Mr. McKinzy, why don’t you recite for me what you think motions are
16 MR. MCKINZY: Okay. The most newly filed motion, which was filed or
17 served on the 7th, was a renewed motion for summary judgment that was served on
25 Weren’t we supposed to, according to the prior scheduling order, have all motions
6
1 and discovery completed by a date certain, any -- any new pleadings, et cetera?
5 MR. MCKINZY: The Respondent’s motion was filed and I assumed the
10 of motion --
13 Any response, Ms. Hessenflow, to the new motion for summary judgment?
16 MS. HESSENFLOW: Even though I got it a day and a half ago, I don’t want
17 any issues left pending that could be refiled at a later date, so I got myself ready, and
20 motion, Mr. --
21 MR. MCKINZY: I have a courtesy copy for the Court this morning.
23 now.
7
1 respect to why this Court should enter a summary judgment with respect to your
5 the whole matter that was filed originally by my counsel at the time.
7 have to pay maintenance, and it also says you should be -- there should be no -- there
8 should be no arrearages --
13 argument on this new -- you filed a motion for summary judgment previously in this
14 cause and then you withdrew it. I think it was filed April 18.
17 2016; am I right?
20 judgment referencing?
21 MR. MCKINZY: It’s that the underlying original order that was issued back
22 in 2002 was void and all subsequent money that’s derived from that order -- it’s a
23 null and void order, and therefore all of the income that was attached is
24 notwithstanding. I did not receive nor did Petitioner or the Respondent receive
25 proper notice by certified mail of the financial -- financial responsibility notice, or the
8
1 actual establishing order was not served by certified mail pursuant to statute.
5 MR. MCKINZY: Yes, Your Honor. If it was void then, it’s void today.
9 other case law at the time. When I pursued it, there was no case law that addressed
10 the voidance of administrative state orders that are not properly served.
13 MR. MCKINZY: Yes, I was denied due process of law regarding the initial
18 MR. MCKINZY: It entails that I -- myself and the Respondent reside at 8609
24 MR. MCKINZY: Yes, that the child support that was entered in the divorce
9
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Well, you were present for the dissolution.
6 arguments there regarding the issues of the -- of the prior administrative order?
11 MR. MCKINZY: I wasn’t aware that there was -- I was entitled to be served
15 government contending that they sent notice to you at your last known address?
16 MR. MCKINZY: Yes, which they note as being 3743 Flora, which is my
17 parents’ current address. And I know that they served my wife at the current time at
18 4215 Tracy, which is her parents’ address. We resided -- had purchased a house in
19 August of 2002 and was residing there as a married couple, with all four children, at
24 MR. MCKINZY: That is the notice, due process of law that I was not
25 properly --
10
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Ms. Hessenflow, your response?
2 MS. HESSENFLOW: Yes, Your Honor. Since I didn’t have time to type up
3 and include my own affidavits and exhibits, I’d like to introduce my evidence that I
4 would have in this matter at this time, and I’d ask that the Petitioner take the stand
5 and be sworn so that I can ask him a few questions regarding the basis for his motion.
7 approach the witness chair and wait to be sworn, please. Would you raise your right
8 hand, sir?
9 (Witness sworn.)
11 prior experience, that microphone doesn’t amplify, it just records, so let me ask you
19 MS. HESSENFLOW: Actually, I’m sorry, Your Honor, there’s a party in the
22 other than a party to this case who intends to testify or expects to be called as a
23 witness, you’ll need to wait out in the hallway until it’s time to testify.
11
1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I’m here for support. I mean --
7 MR. MCKINZY: Yes, she was -- I was intending, but I can void if she has to
8 be removed, because I do -- would like her to observe the -- so I will not call her as a
9 witness.
11 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, I’d like to call her and ask her a few
15 have like six questions for her. I’m not calling her so I can kick her out all day and
16 she can’t watch. I’m happy to take her out of order. But if she’s here, I have a
18 MR. MCKINZY: Well, she would not be properly served. I would assume,
24 hallway until it’s your turn to testify, then we’ll -- then you can stay in the courtroom
12
1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay.
3 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
4 Q. The basis for your motion for summary judgment is that you did not receive a
5 certified mail copy of the notice of finding and financial responsibility way back
6 when the very first proceedings took place in the administrative matter, correct?
7 A. That is correct that I did not receive it when I was called by Child Support,
8 and I went down there because I was paying directly to my current wife child support
9 and --
12 attention --
15 answer only it, and then -- and this will move much better.
17 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
18 Q. Does paragraph 1 of your pleading state that the Division of Child Support
19 Enforcement failed to serve you by certified mail with copies of its notice of financial
20 responsibility and its administrative child support order to your last known address?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. And based upon that, you believe that they did not have jurisdiction or
23 jurisdiction over you individually to proceed with the very first order that led to all
25 A. That is correct.
13
1 Q. And based on that, you are asking the Court, as a matter of summary
2 judgment, to find that that judgment is void and therefore everything emanating
3 thereafter is void?
5 Q. Now, the pending pleadings that are still pending for today are a motion you
6 filed on 5/2/16, asking that the admissions you propounded to the Respondent be
8 A. I believe so.
9 Q. Does that ask the Court to do anything about void judgments for lack of
12 Q. The other motion that’s still pending is a motion for default judgment you
13 filed on 5/17/16 with regard to discovery that you propounded to the Respondent that
14 you believe was not complied with in a timely manner. That’s still pending today,
15 right?
17 Q. Does that say anything about finding old administrative orders void?
19 Q. You also have your motion to modify and motion for declaratory judgment,
21 A. Yes, by my counsel.
22 Q. Does that motion in any way ask the Court to set aside or to find void the
23 original judgment?
14
1 Q. But it does not ask the Court to find that based upon that old original order
4 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, I move that the motion for summary
5 judgment be overruled. There are no pending pleadings at this time asking the Court
6 to declare that this judgment is void, therefore there cannot be a summary judgment
8 to address it on the facts as well, so I’d ask the Court to stay your decision so that we
11 course to take is I’ll take it under advisement, pending the conclusion of this trial
15 MS. HESSENFLOW: I still have some more questions, then, about that.
20 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
21 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 40 and
22 ask you if you recognize that as the motion for summary judgment that you filed on
23 Saturday night.
15
1 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
2 Q. July?
6 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
11 Q. And pages 4 through 17 are the exhibits that you attached and incorporated
12 into your motion as evidentiary support for your request; is that right?
13 A. That is correct.
21 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
22 Q. Will you turn to page 6 of that document, please? And what you attached as
23 Exhibit E is a copy of the administrative order in the old ’02 case from July 10, 2002;
24 is that correct?
25 A. That is correct.
16
1 Q. Third paragraph down under findings of fact, does it say, “On 7/1/2002,
3 A. Yes, it does.
4 Q. And then after that, does it say that not only were you personally served, but
12 Q. Can you turn to page 8? Is that your notarized signature on 6/28/02 on the
14 A. Yes, that’s -- I signed a -- this sheet only, stating that I was down there,
15 acknowledging or wanting to enter into a voluntary child support order that my wife
16 and I had agreed to, and this was the order that I was agreeing to. It was a consent to
21 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
22 Q. So you stated that page 8 -- you came in and you signed this blank page?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been now marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 4,
25 which is already in evidence. It was received by this Court during the hearing on
17
1 5/19/2017 (sic), so I don’t have to offer it into evidence. But do you recognize that
4 A. It was signed on the same day. And, once again, it was under the impression
6 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, nonresponsive. I didn’t ask him what his
7 opinion was. I asked if he signed this document under oath, entry of appearance.
9 question.
10 MR. MCKINZY: Yes, I signed the same document on the same date that I
11 signed the signature page for the administrative order without provided -- being
13 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
14 Q. All right. Can you now turn to page 10 of your motion for summary
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You filed a series of cases in 2007 and 2008, also alleging in those matters
19 A. That is correct.
21 your motion, do you raise the issues of not being served, not receiving a notice, not
25 A. That is -- no, they’re not circled. Not on mine, they are not.
18
1 Q. Paragraphs 1, 2, 3, and 7 address the same issues that you’re wanting to raise
4 Q. All right. Sorry. On page 11, paragraphs 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 also deal with
5 affidavits of mailing, you not getting certified mail, you not wanting -- you not
6 receiving the correct process from the beginning and wanting the order set aside then;
7 is that correct?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. On page 12, paragraphs 15, 16, and 18 also deal with asking the Court to find
10 the order null and void because you did not receive due process and there was
12 A. Well, this -- this was not before the Court. This was submitted in the
13 administrative hearing that was held, I believe, in July 2007. I submitted this as an
14 exhibit, raising those same issues before the administrative hearing officer.
15 Q. And on page 13, that’s your signature and the date that you sent that off; is
16 that correct?
18 Q. And on page 15, you attach a copy of a statute where you’ve highlighted in
19 green that you believe this order is void because -- you’ve highlighted, “Service of
20 the notice and finding shall be made on the parent or other party in the manner
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. You realize that if you were served personally, signed an entry, signed the
25 order, signed the judgment, nobody has to send you certified mail of anything?
19
1 A. No, I did not receive order. I signed signature pages. I did not receive copies
3 Q. Furthermore, did you raise the same issue in 2007 in a motion to set aside
4 administrative order, in 2007 in a motion filed in the ’02 case to set aside the order,
5 which you then filed a second and a third supplemental motions for administrative
6 review and before the Western District Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court, all
8 A. I may have. I don’t recall the individual actions, but, yes, I consistently have
9 pursued resolving the fact that I was not properly served with the establishing order
11 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, at this time, I am going to ask the Court
12 to go ahead and overrule the motion for summary judgment. Number one, there is no
13 pleading upon which summary judgment and underlying pleading can be granted.
14 Number two, the evidence attached to his own exhibits incorporated in the summary
15 judgment show that he entered an appearance, show that he was personally served,
16 show that he signed the order, and the attachments to that as well as his own
17 testimony indicate that this matter has already been presented to this and other courts
18 and overturned. Therefore, even if it were a valid motion that had never been served,
19 it’s res judicata, collateral estoppel. There’s nothing here upon which you can base
21 Petitioner’s favor.
25 testimony and the arguments made that the Petitioner’s motion for summary
20
1 judgment is overruled, that there is no pending motion before the Court to address
2 notice, that it’s untimely filed in any event, that in addition there’s overwhelming
3 evidence of the Petitioner knowing about the administrative process by virtue of his
4 consent to the order and by virtue of his entry of appearance; and next, that this
5 matter has been litigated previously on multiple occasions, both in the State and
6 Appellate Courts. The matter has been dealt with, and we are ready to move on.
11 pending.
18 MR. MCKINZY: Is that the -- upon service, the Court entered a -- granted
19 the Petitioner’s motion for sanctions regarding the then pending outstanding
21 failed to do so prior to having retained counsel and pursuant to the current Rules of
22 Civil Procedure 61.01(b), I believe, effective January 1, 2016, that the Court was
23 mandated to either sanction, dismiss, or grant the judgment based on the failure to
21
1 MS. HESSENFLOW: Call the Respondent briefly for a few questions, Your
2 Honor.
9 your right hand when you get to the witness chair. Raise your right hand, please.
10 (Witness sworn.)
12 asked Mr. McKinzy, please speak up so that we can create a good record.
18 A. Carletha R. Gaston.
19 Q. And you signed and reviewed our answer to Mr. McKinzy’s motion for a
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in that motion in our response, we set forth when you actually received
23 the admissions, that they weren’t in the proper format, that you did your best to
25 A. Yes.
22
1 Q. And, further, we also asked the Court to set aside the previous scheduling
3 everything that was pending that had been properly propounded and to allow
4 everybody an opportunity to fix their discovery or ask anything else that they wanted
6 A. That’s correct.
7 Q. And this Court entered that scheduling order on May 26, 2016, thereby
8 setting aside the discovery order upon which Mr. McKinzy bases his request for
10 A. That’s correct.
11 Q. However, by the time that Court had issued that judgment, you had already
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And I hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 78 and ask
15 you if you recognize that as a copy of an email transmission from me, your attorney,
16 to Mr. McKinzy.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the Court gave us until December -- I’m sorry, until June 20, 2016 to
20 A. That’s correct.
25 received.
23
1 (AT THIS TIME RESPONDENT’S EXHIBIT 78 WAS RECEIVED IN
3 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
4 Q. Does the first page of that document show that you sent your one
6 second interrogatories, response to his second request for an income and expense,
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Does the second page of that document show that you responded to all three
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Does the last page of the document show that you provided three income and
14 expense statements that covered different times of the year, an asset and debt
16 A. That’s correct.
17 Q. Did you, on or before the date the Judge set as the final deadline, June 20,
18 2016, respond to all 11 of the discovery requests propounded to you by Mr. McKinzy
19 in this case?
20 A. It was done.
25 January 1, 2016, that the Court, after giving Respondent additional time, was
24
1 required by Rules of Civil Procedure to either dismiss, grant default, or enter a
2 sanction after additional time, that it was not a discretionary matter at that time, and
3 the Court had entered an order extending the discovery time to May 1, upon which
6 the motion for default judgment based on the fact that default is the most severe of
7 remedies, that it’s not called for in this circumstance, that there was additional time
8 granted to both parties, including the Petitioner, to complete the discovery requested.
9 It appears as though that discovery has been complied with. There are other
10 sanctions available if the Court found that there was a violation that needs to be
11 addressed regarding the prior order. Ms. Gaston was not represented at that time, and
12 as soon as Ms. Hessenflow got in the case, the -- the new order was entered with
13 regard to the discovery and has been complied with. As a result, the motion for
23 please?
24 MR. MCKINZY: Okay. It was once again based on what the Plaintiff or
25 Petitioner believed was the current Rules of Civil Procedure; that if responses had not
25
1 been responded to or objected to by within the 30 days of being served, that they
2 were being admitted. The Respondent in this case failed to do so, and therefore,
3 Petitioner believed that the request for admission were deemed admitted based on the
9 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, while she approaches the witness stand,
10 in our response we set forth that the admissions propounded upon the Respondent
11 prior to my entry in the case were in the improper format. All five questions related
12 to matters that have been previously decided in other litigation and were not pending
17 Q. And, Ms. Gaston, I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as
19 A. Yes, I do.
22 2016?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So before the Court even withdrew its prior sanctions discovery order and
25 timelines on 5/26/16 and granted you until 6/20/16 to respond to those admissions,
26
1 you had already responded to this particular set a week before we even went to court
2 that date?
3 A. Yes, I did.
5 Honor, I’d ask for an order denying the Petitioner’s request that the admissions be
6 deemed admitted. Number one, he’s basing that on an order that was later set aside
7 and a new scheduling order was put in place, which is under the purview of the Court
8 to guide and govern the timing in exchange of discovery, and further, with regard to
9 the particular request for admissions, they were responded to before the deadlines
18 the requested -- the admissions that were propounded upon your client have been
19 previously -- were referencing matters that had previously been dealt with?
22 specificity of her responses. She then, after she hired me, filed amended responses to
23 the admissions on 5/18/16, which was within the timeframe of the original discovery
24 order before you set forth a new scheduling order on 5/26 and certainly before the
25 deadline on 6/20/16.
27
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: But the -- the form of the admissions you
2 said is improper.
8 not pending before the Court, he didn’t give her copies -- an electronic copy or extra
9 paper copies that she could work from; further, they asked for matters related to other
10 individuals besides herself, adult children who would have had to have provided this
11 information, but she gave him whatever information she could in response to those
12 documents.
14 when you’re pro se and you’re trying to do this without the benefit of legal counsel,
15 that sometimes rules can be confusing or overwhelming, even. But in this case,
16 based on the form of the request, which has to be in particular form and was not put
17 in that form, and based on the fact that these matters have previously been dealt with,
18 and the timeline involved regarding when these admissions were responded to, the
19 Court’s going to overrule your motion to deem the requested admissions being
20 admitted.
21 What, besides the motion in limine, is left to deal with before we take
28
1 MS. HESSENFLOW: It is in my response to his pleading before my counter-
2 motions to --
4 MS. HESSENFLOW: Our answer to his initial motion. It’s in our answer
5 and counter-petition.
8 The first part of our responsive pleading, then, counter asks that these be dismissed
9 for -- certain matters, all but three, be dismissed for res judicata and collateral
10 estoppel. And, of course, we ask for affirmative relief, which is to -- for attorney’s
11 fees to declare interest to set -- reduce the amounts owed to a set judgment in Counts
12 II and III.
14 motion and incorporated suggestions to dismiss all requests for affirmative relief set
15 forth in Mr. McKinzy’s motion to modify and motion for declaratory judgment, with
18 his maintenance retroactive to the date of the filing of his motion to modify and
19 motion for declaratory judgment. The other one is his request to find that he has paid
22 related requests are barred by the doctrines of res judicata and collateral estoppel.
29
1 MS. HESSENFLOW: He filed, I believe, suggestions in opposition thereto.
6 Ms. Hessenflow, that remains according to your motion. What is it that you were
12 Mr. McKinzy.
17 MS. HESSENFLOW: His motion, yes, sir. And that was -- I actually offered
18 a copy of that into evidence for ease of reference during the hearing on 5/16, so it’s in
22 his requests for relief. No. 1 is emancipation of the children retroactive to the date of
23 majority of each and every child. That has been previously litigated four times and
30
1 Mr. McKinzy, do you -- is that correct, that this has previously been dealt
5 MR. MCKINZY: No, I don’t believe the emancipation of any of the children
9 MR. MCKINZY: No, not regarding -- I have not sought emancipation of any
10 of the children.
15 MS. HESSENFLOW: Why don’t we narrow down the list? I have all the
16 exhibits to put in, in evidence in support of my motion. So one is we dispute one and
20 support obligation as of the dates of each and every child born of the marriage, same
31
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: That was a very uncertain and vague
18 emancipation dates and termination dates for the support obligations for the children,
19 as they have been previously litigated, and I’m prepared to put on evidence with
20 regard to my request to --
24 pending the receipt of that evidence. You also have in your answer cross-motion and
32
1 arrearages -- we’ve covered that -- to assess and enter judgment for all statutory
3 is that correct?
6 suggestions in support of a request for judgment against Mr. McKinzy for your
10 is that we will hear further evidence regarding prior orders entered by the Court, and
11 then I can enter judgment accordingly based on whatever I find to be the most
12 credible evidence on that score. What other motions, then, besides the motion in
20 Ms. Hessenflow recently -- when was it, today or Saturday or sometime -- indicates
21 that you did not receive the requested discovery that you believe you’re entitled to,
22 and as a result, you’re asking that the Court not permit Mr. McKinzy to provide
23 evidence of his income for the years 2013, ’14, and ’15, I believe; is that correct?
24 MS. HESSENFLOW: Not exactly, Your Honor. I -- he did not provide the
25 discovery.
33
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: And that discovery was in the form of tax
2 returns?
4 did provide some pay stubs, and the motion simply asks that he not be able to testify
5 that his income is different from the limited information that he provided. We’ve
6 based our case on what he provided rather than going around and around again about
7 the discovery, trying to get the taxes, wasting more time, wasting more money. We
8 had an updated pay stub. I know where he’s working now. I know what he’s earning
9 now. But because he did not provide the other documents, we don’t want to be in a
10 position where he then comes in and testifies and says, “Well, I’m only earning this
11 now,” or, “Last year, I only earned that,” or, “I didn’t really earn that.”
16 returns requested?
17 MR. MCKINZY: I provided the tax return, I believe, in -- in open court prior
18 to Respondent retaining counsel. It was the date that we appeared here and the case
34
1 discovery, indicating that it’s already been completed?
2 MR. MCKINZY: Yes, that -- that was the responses that the discovery
5 question about it or if she said she didn’t get it and there’s no other evidence of it,
6 why didn’t you provide it again, make copies and give it to her?
11 wouldn’t it?
14 request the discovery pursuant to your order of 5/26/2016. My client claims she did
15 not receive them. I don’t care whether she did or not. I asked for three things in
16 discovery -- copies of his tax returns for the past three years, copies of pay stubs and
17 the last pay stub from last year, and pension documents. That’s all I asked him for.
19 see what -- what -- are you contending that what you’re currently earning,
20 Mr. McKinzy, is different, more or less, than what you earned in ’13 to ’15 -- 2013 to
35
1 his income currently is sufficiently different from prior years, correct?
12 develops, and at that point, you can make any objections you deem appropriate,
13 either side, regarding what the evidence is. But if -- if the tax returns have been
14 requested, which they have, and you’ve not responded to it since we established the
15 new scheduling order, then if you’re going to testify that your income currently in
16 particular is less than what you were earning or you were earning more in previous
17 years as opposed to now, then I’m going to be very skittish about letting that -- that
21 need to get started on this if we hope to conclude it today. Any other motions
25 me?
36
1 MR. MCKINZY: Not that I’m aware of.
3 Ms. Hessenflow?
10 MR. MCKINZY: I call -- all right. You’re going to be the witness, so just
11 keep your seat. And please remember you’re under oath, all right?
16 Q. Could you state your name for the record, please, Carletha?
17 A. Carletha R. Gaston.
18 Q. Do you have any -- have you been previously married? Have you -- are you
19 currently married?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay.
37
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
2 BY MR. MCKINZY:
4 A. I have four.
7 Deron Terrell (phonetic spelling) McKinzy, 6/8/88 -- they are twins -- and Michael
9 Q. Are any -- any of the children currently in college or have any attended
10 college?
13 revisiting the issues of emancipation dates of all four of the children. They have all
15 motion to dismiss out those two. We have spent an inordinate amount of time
16 discussing that in May, and it is simply not before the Court. The children are
17 emancipated, so I’m going to renew my motion at this time. I don’t know if perhaps
18 we would like to take the evidence on that issue of res judicata before we spend all
21 never been an order by any court, including this one, that there’s been an
23 MR. MCKINZY: I’m concluding that I’m not aware of any court hearing
38
1 nip that in the bud immediately and deal with that, all right?
4 something you can put on that would streamline this in any appreciable degree, I’d --
7 If you could step down for a moment, I would like to inquire of the Petitioner
8 as to his knowledge and participation in six previous cases concerning this issue.
14 Q. Sir, earlier, we discussed your new motion for summary judgment, just a little
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And we put that in evidence as Petitioner’s Exhibit 40. I’m going to hand
18 you your copy back. All right. And we talked about some exhibits and pleadings
19 that you filed in 2006 and 2007 to attempt to address some issues that you took
21 us talking about that service, did you get the affidavit, was it certified mail?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Can you turn to page 10? And is that the same document that you
25 paragraphs on page 11 that related to service that you rose at that time?
39
1 A. Yes, before administrative.
2 Q. And you ended up filing petitions for judicial review in front of Judge
3 Campbell?
5 Q. Based upon this litigation that you instigated concerning the underlying
6 administrative order?
8 Q. And when the Judge did not grant your motion for judicial review and to set
9 this aside, you filed a writ against him, and you filed an appeal at the Western
12 Q. And these requests that you raised first in 2006 and ‘7 were not just limited to
14 A. They were limited to the fact that I -- yeah, I was denied due process of law.
15 That was my main point raised, that I was denied due process of law.
18 summary judgment?
24 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
25 Q. Paragraph 20 -- I’m sorry, paragraph 22, did you argue that your daughter
40
1 was emancipated and should have been retroactively emancipated to -- when she
3 A. Yes, that is --
6 A. Yes.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And at that time, you did not request emancipation of your youngest son,
13 Q. So the emancipation of your three older children was addressed in the 2007
14 motions, the petition for judicial review, the Western District Court of Appeals
16 A. It was not a issue that I raised. There was a affidavit that was included.
21 Q. Okay.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Did you also raise the issue of retroactive emancipation of the three older
41
1 children in your response to the motion to modify filed by the State of Missouri,
2 wherein they reduced your child support administratively to $599 to reflect support
5 Q. I’ll ask it a different way. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as
6 Respondent’s Exhibit 72 and ask you if you recognize that as a copy of the docket
7 entries for the divorce case, the underlying 02FC200809 divorce case.
8 A. I don’t recognize it, but I’m familiar with some of the -- the wording in it.
14 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. And at the top, on 11/25/02, did you file a motion for rehearing with regard to
18 the divorce decree that incorporated the administrative child support amount?
19 A. In ’02?
21 A. Oh, okay.
25 Q. And one of the issues you raised was the fact that the administrative child
42
1 support order was incorporated into the dissolution decree?
2 A. No, the issue I raised -- there was no issues. I was just requesting to be given
3 a rehearing. I was -- I didn’t put forth any reason. I thought I automatically was
4 entitled to a motion for rehearing if it was done within the 15 days. I just thought it
5 was administerial process. And it was eventually overruled, but I didn’t put forth any
6 issues. It was just that I felt -- after I found out that the marital home was sold, that I
7 wanted to bring that to the Court’s attention that the -- and that’s the whole thing is
8 that -- that I wanted to bring to the Court’s attention is that the children were not
9 living in the marital home. It had been sold a month after the divorce or was in the
12 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
20 determine when that was done? Wouldn’t that solve the issue? What am I missing
22 MS. HESSENFLOW: I was trying to establish that it had been filed and filed
23 and filed and filed, but you’re right, just give you the thing and call it a day.
43
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: -- I think I understand that there’s been
2 much litigation throughout the course of this, but for today’s purposes, to streamline
3 it, if we could get to the issue of the emancipation and the orders that were entered,
7 the modification decision and order of the administrative hearing section. It’s
8 already in evidence in this matter and was offered on 5/19/2016, received into
9 evidence. I’m going to hand everybody a copy so they can follow along. On page 3
10 of that document, highlighted in blue, finding No. 3, “Father no longer owes a duty
11 of support for children Barbara, Deron, and Deon.” Turning over then to the
12 determinations -- one, two, three, four paragraphs down, highlighted in blue, “This
13 decision was calculated considering only Father’s support for the child Michael,” the
14 one attending high school. Below that, first line in the next paragraph, “Presumed
15 support for Michael only is 599.” The following page, second half of first paragraph,
16 “It is also determined that Father’s current support obligation ceasing for three of the
17 four children constitutes a continuing and substantial change, and under the order,
18 Father no longer owes any support for the three olders, and the only one continuing
19 to get support is the younger one, 599.” That order emancipated the three older
20 children and reestablished support for the fourth child only. And also already
44
1 Mr. McKinzy, does that refresh your recollection on the emancipation of the
4 the dates or -- that are -- is -- the order -- is the order saying that the -- the children
17 MR. MCKINZY: No, I got something from the hearing -- hearing officer, the
18 legal service.
45
1 the older three.
7 judgment of the Court, which appears to be December 12, 2007 for your three older
9 MR. MCKINZY: He --
14 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
15 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 54 and
19 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
20 Q. Motion to terminate child support in the amount of 599 for the youngest son,
21 Michael.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you filed, which you can, pro se an affidavit for termination of child
46
1 Q. You didn’t ask for his 18th birthday, did you?
3 Q. Can you show me on that motion where you asked that it be retroactive to his
4 18th birthday rather than effective the date that you filed the motion?
6 was subsequently emancipated as of his 18th birthday, because the Respondent filed
9 A. As of his 18th -- well, I was seeking the 18th birthday, because -- yes.
18 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
19 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked Respondent’s Exhibit 79 and
20 ask if you recognize that as those affidavits that she executed that you were just
21 talking about.
22 A. Yes.
47
1 EVIDENCE AND MADE A PART OF THIS RECORD.)
2 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
3 Q. So after she got served with your Respondent’s Exhibit 54, saying, “Hey, my
4 kid’s like over 21 and I’m still paying support,” she sent an answer that says, “Yeah,
6 A. That is correct with regard to him. But also the other children were not
7 emancipated as of their 18th birthday. That was the whole -- everyone that I’m
14 Mr. McKinzy.
16 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
20 A. Yes.
22 A. Not that I’m aware of. They sent it back to me, saying that it was not
23 properly filed.
48
1 A. She does not acknowledge it, but she said she agree.
2 Q. Second page, does she do her own affidavit of termination of child support
3 and modification, now asking on her behalf that the child be emancipated?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are the last two -- second to the last two pages a letter from her that she sent
6 along with this that says, “Hey, he graduated from high school in May of 2009. You
8 2009. Please emancipate him retroactive to the month he graduated from high
9 school”?
10 A. That would have not been his 18th birthday, but that’s the -- what the letter I
15 A. Yeah.
18 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
19 Q. And she says, “Hey, back out all that child support from May of 2009 up
20 until you stopped taking the 599 for him,” which they had already done on the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And is the last page of that document -- just a minute -- okay. But nobody
24 had filed for retroactive emancipation. You’ve said emancipate him. She filed this
25 little letter. Nobody actually did what was necessary to make that happen, correct?
49
1 A. I’m not sure. I thought once it was filed, it was -- it was self-activating --
2 effective.
3 Q. But it wasn’t. They didn’t take any money off. They just emancipated him,
4 correct?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. So she then -- I’m going to hand you Respondent’s Exhibit 13, which is
7 already in evidence -- filed an affidavit of credit, giving you credit for $10,772, the
8 support that shows -- not that you paid, but that still shows as an arrearage between
9 May of 2009 and the date they stopped clicking away 559 a month for your son?
10 A. Right.
13 A. No, she did not give me a full credit, because she emancipated him as of the
16 by your reference to 18th birthday. The law in the state of Missouri does not require
17 emancipation on the 18th birthday. It requires it after graduation from high school.
18 THE WITNESS: Right. Well, she filed an affidavit, stating his emancipation
19 of his 18th birthday with the Court. That was the affidavit she filed, emancipating
21 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
22 Q. Long story short, your oldest son is also emancipated as of today -- right now,
23 today, correct?
24 A. My oldest son?
50
1 A. Youngest son?
3 A. Yes, it’s not reflective of when she emancipated him, as of his 18th birthday,
5 Q. Okay. So your issue is, even though he didn’t graduate from high school
6 until May of 2009, when he was 19 rather than 18, you think you still have a year of
9 Q. Okay.
12 A. Yes.
14 A. Yes.
16 A. They were not -- to my knowledge, no one has informed me that they were in
17 school, so --
22 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, I’m going to ask the Court to consider
23 the exhibits. All four of the children are emancipated, some as long as almost a
51
1 abundant evidence, clear and convincing, that emancipation has been entered with
2 regard to all four children years ago in three of the children’s cases and over a year
3 ago in the youngest child’s case. So that issue is -- has been dealt with.
7 And you can continue with your examination, Mr. McKinzy, with the
11 that’s not before the Court today. We’re not going to talk about that all day.
13 once.
16 MR. MCKINZY: I was saying that the whole issue was like it was brought to
17 the -- I’m trying to bring to the Court’s attention and get is the actual date of the
19 definitive date of the emancipation, therefore the calculation of child support for all
22 other children.
25 2007.
52
1 MR. MCKINZY: And I’m saying --
3 to follow the law or the prior judgment followed the law in that it’s when he
5 MR. MCKINZY: So --
7 MR. MCKINZY: -- so the affidavit that she filed with the Court, requesting
11 MS. HESSENFLOW: It does not, Your Honor. It says -- if you look at it, he
14 MS. HESSENFLOW: Yes, sir. And please emancipate him and give him
15 credit, and since there was no formal pleading to give the credit, she went in on her
16 own and gave him an affidavit for credit for the difference.
18 dates. December 12 -- December 12, 2007 for the three older children and May 20,
20 MR. MCKINZY: This is the affidavit she filed with the Court.
24 school. That’s the requirement. If he was 17 and graduated from high school, he’d
53
1 and graduated from high school.
4 all right?
7 filing that credit, which I’m not sure she had to do, but she did, and you will be given
8 due credit for that in the overall arrearage issue. So let’s move on beyond
9 emancipation and examine this witness in whatever other way you deem appropriate.
15 A. First Student.
22 BY MR. MCKINZY:
23 Q. And how long have you been employed by your current employer?
24 A. Three years.
25 Q. Could you state your current wage rate or how much you -- I think since
54
1 2016, would you approximate what your income was for 2016, total?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. 28,000-something.
6 A. That was my gross income after my last paycheck. That was my last wages
12 Q. Okay. Do you know the current -- in your response, you stated that you had
14 statements?
15 A. Well, if that’s what you have, then that’s what you have.
16 Q. So I offer you exhibit -- Petitioner’s Exhibit 66. Would you state the gross
17 amount? That’s your 2015 tax -- W-2 from your employer, First --
18 A. 33,510.22.
19 Q. But you had previously stated your gross was approximately 26,000. That’s a
20 increase of --
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. -- 2015.
25 Would that be --
55
1 A. The year 2015.
4 Q. -- would you say that that would be approximately -- you made less last year
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MR. MCKINZY: I’d like to offer into evidence Petitioner’s Exhibit 66.
10 MS. HESSENFLOW: Can I see it real quick? I think it’s from the
20 BY MR. MCKINZY:
22 do you recall?
24 MR. MCKINZY: I guess you want to also put a 1 in front of all these.
56
1 apologize for the inconvenience, but it’ll make matters clearer, I believe.
2 BY MR. MCKINZY:
4 A. Yep.
5 Q. Would you tell -- state what -- what that is that you recognize?
6 A. My account transactions.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you state for what the average daily -- or average daily balance is?
11 --
14 evidence --
20 received.
23 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Now you may ask her questions about it.
24 BY MR. MCKINZY:
25 Q. This is for May of 2016. Would you state for the Court what the average
57
1 daily balance of that is?
4 A. April, May.
8 going over?
11 her answer.
13 BY MR. MCKINZY:
18 that I -- average daily balance this period. It doesn’t say what date, so I don’t know
20 Q. But as of the date -- as of the date of that statement, the average daily balance
21 was 1,900?
25 BY MR. MCKINZY:
58
1 Q. These -- this appears -- this is bank statements in 2015 for a whole year.
2 Each one states your daily average balance. Could you for 2015 state what the daily
12 BY MR. MCKINZY:
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. As of --
16 A. 2,589.63.
19 Q. Okay. Can you read the daily balance from November of 2015?
20 A. 2,664.05.
23 year --
59
1 MR. MCKINZY: Okay.
7 BY MR. MCKINZY:
9 discovery, I guess, for -- since this is the first time I’ve dealt with -- your -- your
10 standard to provide the modification statement of assets and debts for each party. I
19 BY MR. MCKINZY:
20 Q. On C, where it says bank accounts and lists all amounts in all checking
21 accounts, could you state what your present market value is?
22 A. $150.
23 Q. And you signed that as of -- when was that notarized or when did you sign?
24 A. It doesn’t say.
25 Q. Yeah, it does.
60
1 A. Where?
5 A. 2016.
6 Q. So would you agree that there’s somewhat of a difference in what you stated
9 banking account for certain months in 2015. The modification statement of assets
10 and debts is from June 17, 2016. If he’d like to inquire as to what she had at that
11 time, that would form a basis. Otherwise, it’s speculation and is asking her to admit
14 question or offer a different exhibit, Mr. McKinzy, because the two don’t match up,
18 BY MR. MCKINZY:
20 do you know what the approximate value that was in your banking account, which
21 you haven’t answered to, what you anticipate or what it actually was at that time?
23 Q. In June of 2016, do you know what your approximate value of your banking
61
1 paper. I can’t remember or recall right off the bat.
4 A. Well, I would -- I would think so, but I have other money coming in from
5 you, so that --
7 A. No. No, not -- that’s not clear. I had other money coming in from you on a
9 Q. Okay. So you’re -- you’re -- you’re -- you’re just saying that the money that
11 A. Well, what was coming in had to go back out for bills and whatever else, so
12 your money coming in, I used it, so -- on this court case and everything else, so what
15 A. Whatever you see up there, sir, that’s what you see. I can’t -- I can’t testify to
16 what else be done unless you are just trying to itemize everything, because I can’t
21 BY MR. MCKINZY:
62
1 Q. Do you recall when it was -- when you no longer resided there? What was
3 A. January of 2003.
6 Q. Did you maintain your residence there the entire time until January of 2003?
7 A. Yes.
16 MR. MCKINZY: I asked her what was the -- what was the ultimate
17 disposition of the property, not the reasons, but what actually -- what was --
19 what happened to the property. And if you want to develop later on through your
22 BY MR. MCKINZY:
24 A. 70-something thousand.
25 Q. Okay. Do you recall at the time of purchase what the purchasing price of the
63
1 property was?
2 A. I don’t have that in front of me, so I can’t make a definite figure as to what it
3 was.
4 Q. But it was sold at a -- at a -- at a gain? You did retain some of the income
5 from that?
8 A. Not nothing.
9 Q. But it -- okay. If --
10 A. You signed -- you -- you signed it, so you knew when the -- the -- the
11 contractor came to sell it, you could have found out yourself what they wanted or if
12 you wanted anything out of it, but I sold it because it was in foreclosure and it would
13 have damaged my credit and yours, so it was sold to them to keep it from going
14 under foreclosure.
21 houses that have been foreclosed 14 years ago bearing on the issue of maintenance
22 today.
24 Mr. McKinzy. What’s the relevance of a down payment on a house that has been
64
1 MR. MCKINZY: Just that the -- the equity of the house had approximately
8 BY MR. MCKINZY:
10 residence?
11 A. Yes, I do.
14 A. Well, I’m responsible for your daughter, your 31-year-old daughter and two
15 grandchildren.
18 Q. Okay.
22 Q. So in addition to providing for yourself, you also provide a living space for
25 Q. And how long have they been residing there with you?
65
1 A. About a year and a half now.
3 A. No.
5 A. You know that. You just saw her day before yesterday.
10 BY MR. MCKINZY:
13 Q. But she’s been -- she’s been living in your residence for over a year, but you
14 don’t --
19 A. Yes.
22 Q. Does she provide any income or does she take care of any of the bills?
23 A. She does not pay any rent. She does not pay anything. I support her and the
66
1 A. Zyire (phonetic spelling) and Zion.
4 Q. And they’ve been residing there and -- and attending school from your
5 residence?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Over a year?
8 A. Yes.
10 A. Yes, I am.
12 A. Yes.
14 A. Yes.
17 BY MR. MCKINZY:
19 A. Well, it was an agreement between me and you verbally, but the thing of it is
22 A. Is that you told my daddy and my parents upon my dad’s death that you
23 would make sure that you take care of me, and that’s what you made accusation
24 when I had the stroke three years ago. You said that again on the phone to me. My
25 sister was on agreement on the phone when you did say it. And then if my pastor
67
1 was to come and other church members, they would say the same, so -- but I’m going
2 off the law. You know, if your word is not bond, I have nothing to do with that.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That I would provide support for you for the rest of your life?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any additional needs regarding the children that you
15 are currently residing -- residing in your household? Are you providing any extra
16 medical needs?
17 A. I -- I can’t get into that with you. That’s a personal private matter.
19 you’re still seeking maintenance, it could be relevant to what my decision will be,
21 THE WITNESS: My daughter has a drug and substance abuse, and that’s the
22 reason why she does not maintain a job, and that way -- that’s the reason why the
23 children stay up under me is because she can’t properly take care of them.
24 BY MR. MCKINZY:
25 Q. Okay. Until this hearing, was that something that was discussed between --
68
1 that you provided to me previously?
2 A. About what?
4 A. You -- you were under the understanding. I told you about a year ago. I took
5 you in confidence before you got into your feelings, and I let you know all the times
6 that was going on. You did not make any determine to come and seek the help. You
7 took it out on me for whatever reason. I’m not asking you to take care of your child.
8 That’s on you. You -- you have been directed and told about the situation. I’m doing
9 what any good parent is doing to save their child’s life. If you don’t see that in your -
10 - foresee the future about your child, I -- I can’t -- I can’t have nothing to say about
11 that. But I’m not going to set her and these two minor children out on the street and -
12 - and have to live with something happening to them. So I -- I don’t -- I don’t get
14 Q. Well, what you -- would it be safe to say that a large percentage of your
15 income goes toward providing the medical need for your daughter and her medical
19 A. Yes.
21 A. Yes.
23 A. Yes.
25 MS. HESSENFLOW: I have no objection to it, but it’s not her -- it’s -- I
69
1 have no objection to it.
7 BY MR. MCKINZY:
9 information?
16 BY MR. MCKINZY:
17 Q. Could you read the title and just read the weekly and -- and monthly gross?
19 first time school year, 1/4 to 5/15 and 8/15 to 12/21, 37 weeks, gross wage pay period
20 --
22 A. What 721?
70
1 A. Yeah.
3 A. Uh-huh.
5 A. Is 3,065.61.
6 Q. Okay.
13 BY MR. MCKINZY:
14 Q. Are you aware of any of the other children’s needs as far as are you providing
16 A. Well, your oldest son I took care of when he had a pulmonary embolism that
20 MR. MCKINZY: Yes. What are -- are there any other expenses?
23 currently paying?
25 in a -- in the hospital because he lost his mind and didn’t know where he was, so I
71
1 had to take care of him.
3 THE WITNESS: Last February through -- he was through almost July with
10 BY MR. MCKINZY:
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. And he was not working and you were providing for him as well?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. And that would be in addition to our daughter and the two children?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. So you had approximately five residents residing with you and you were the
18 only one --
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. -- working at the time? Do you have any other expenses that are incurred due
22 A. I have expenses on my own, because I just come after fighting colon cancer.
23 So after all I’ve had to go through, I’ve had to fight, and everything that I’ve worked
24 for is basically -- is I have to work and do what I’ve got to do no matter what I had to
25 do. I work from sun up to sundown. I get up at 3:00 and don’t get home till 7:00,
72
1 8:00 at night, because I’m taking whatever they give me.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- for yourself?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is there any additional cost that’s -- that you spend on any of the other
9 A. Like on Deron?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I’ve had Deron live with me for a month or so while he got his -- you know,
12 his place to live. But, like I said, I’ve taken care of everybody. My mother. I send
13 my mother money because my mother is sick, but I’m not going to go through that.
18 A. So I send her between two and four and whatever my other brothers and
24 Q. Okay. Do you have any other expenses beyond yourself, any other family
25 members or expenses that you have taken on and provided support for?
73
1 A. No.
2 Q. Would you state or question that your income that you have is sufficient to
3 provide -- to provide support for just yourself? What you -- if you didn’t have all
4 these other expenses you’re -- because of providing for your mother, because
5 providing for our daughter, because providing for Deon and the children, if you
6 didn’t have all these expenses, that you would have sufficient income to provide for
7 yourself if you didn’t have the responsibilities that you’ve taken on?
8 A. I would have to work hard to get it, but it would have been all right under --
9 under what the Court asked. If they took me off, that was -- I’m going to have to do
10 what I have to do, so the thing of it is I work hard in order to be able to have more
11 than I need to keep up, because I don’t know when I’m going to get sick, when I’m
12 going to be out, so I have to take what I have to do at that job. So whatever I have to
14 Q. Okay. So would that be, yes, you would have sufficient funds if you were not
15 providing the -- caring for your mother? Where is she currently residing?
16 A. She is in Arkansas.
22 relevance is, but I -- is there a reason you don’t want to give the information?
74
1 THE WITNESS: It’s not from him.
4 MR. MCKINZY: Well, but it’s -- it’s not -- she’s not locally located. She’s
11 MR. MCKINZY: Yeah, same amount of money, but it’s -- it’s -- it’s not like
12 someone living in your -- like I have a family member that -- that reside in
13 California.
20 BY MR. MCKINZY:
22 her to Arkansas for the last three years she’s been on dialysis?
75
1 gives an answer --
8 everybody’s --
18 BY MR. MCKINZY:
21 it?
22 MR. MCKINZY: 2.
24 BY MR. MCKINZY:
76
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. You recall --
4 Q. Do you --
11 from it, let’s see if there’s any objection to it, so offer it into evidence, if you would.
18 BY MR. MCKINZY:
19 Q. Would you state what -- you’ll be the custodial or I’m the obligated -- how do
23 MR. MCKINZY: It’s -- it was prepared by the child support Erin Simmons
77
1 MR. MCKINZY: Yes.
4 BY MR. MCKINZY:
5 Q. And could you show what receiving -- the parent receiving the child support
6 income --
10 BY MR. MCKINZY:
11 Q. No, your income. What they -- right here. What they state your income --
12 A. Okay.
14 A. Okay. 1,560.
16 A. Uh-huh.
20 BY MR. MCKINZY:
22 document?
24 Q. So your check stub reflected that amount? You would -- that’s the
78
1 A. That’s the information I provided to them.
2 Q. Okay.
7 Petitioner’s Exhibit 164 and 165, if the Court’s finished with them? I don’t have
8 copies. I just want to look at them a little more, if I could, please. I don’t know if
9 I’m going to have questions about them. The two bank statements, I believe.
11 MS. HESSENFLOW: I don’t have copies. I just wanted to look at yours real
12 quick. I may have questions. I’ll give them back to you. Thank you.
13 MR. MCKINZY: Okay. This will be 146. Put a 1 in front of the exhibit?
17 cetera.
22 MS. HESSENFLOW: It’s his wages, his Social Security statement. This is
23 something that, again, I asked for taxes showing his wage history.
79
1 MR. MCKINZY: It’s a printout --
3 MR. MCKINZY: -- from 2015. It’s a print off that -- I was locked out and I
4 couldn’t get into. I got it -- I got the update. But it’s -- it’s not my -- I haven’t filed
6 MS. HESSENFLOW: Does it show your income for 2012, ’13, ’14, ’15 that
7 would have been on the tax returns I requested -- your tax returns?
14 something?
17 MR. MCKINZY: But -- and it’s all based on information, as she testified,
20 what prior courts have done. What I’m going to do is see what, if anything, is
21 different since the last order and determine whether or not a modification or
22 termination is appropriate. But I’m not going to undo what prior judges have done.
23 MR. MCKINZY: Okay. Well, this reflects the income for 2014.
25 raised by Ms. Hessenflow in her motion for limine. Did you file a tax return for
80
1 2015?
2 MR. MCKINZY: No, I have not. I provided her a affidavit, allowing her
5 objection if we redact everything but 2015 and ’16 on the Social Security statement,
6 Ms. Hessenflow?
7 MS. HESSENFLOW: As long as it just shows 2015 and ’16 that I received
10 return if he didn’t file one. But I’ll let you talk about ’15 and ’16. And let’s -- let’s
11 go with that.
13 MS. HESSENFLOW: May I see it? Did it have ’15 and ’16 on it?
15 MS. HESSENFLOW: Oh, so you’ve got another one now that has ’15 and
16 ’16 on it?
17 MR. MCKINZY: Well, no, ’16 is -- is not one I have, because I haven’t
19 MS. HESSENFLOW: I don’t have any objection to him handing her the
20 exhibit and asking what his -- it shows his taxable wages for 2015 to be. It doesn’t
81
1 exhibit?
4 MS. HESSENFLOW: I have not seen that before. It says it’s an income and
6 MR. MCKINZY: It’s in the case file. It’s the original case file.
9 MS. HESSENFLOW: -- it looks like the first page of an income and expense
10 statement. It’s not a complete document. If you’re asking me if I would admit that
11 as an income and expense, I would object. It’s the first page of something I’ve never
12 seen before.
16 that.
17 MR. MCKINZY: It’s the same -- it’s W-2 -- I mean, it’s in the case file. The
18 Court can take judicial notice of it. It’s just what -- what’s available and what --
24 what?
82
1 was upon the initial divorce compared to what it is now.
5 you can ask her questions, but the document’s not coming in.
6 BY MR. MCKINZY:
8 that we had, the divorce trial? At the bottom, it states, “The income tax my husband
11 Q. No, where it says, “Income tax my husband has -- husband has records,” do
12 you recall --
14 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Are you asking what her income was back
15 in ’02?
17 BY MR. MCKINZY:
18 Q. Do you recall providing the Court at the time of the divorce this approximate
19 information that you are working part-time, working nine hours -- nine months out of
20 the year?
21 A. Well, the attorney I had at first provided this, Mark Mead -- not Mark Mead.
25 BY MR. MCKINZY:
83
1 Q. Were you working part-time?
2 A. Part-time.
6 A. 452.16 bi-weekly.
8 A. 452.16 twice --
12 A. Yeah.
15 Q. It was part-time?
16 A. I can’t remember, but it was part-time. Working for a bus company is part-
17 time.
18 Q. You currently --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is it part-time?
24 Q. And your hourly wage now is? What is your hourly wage at your current
25 employer?
84
1 A. 16.89.
2 Q. 16.89. And you work how many approximate hours per week?
5 A. Yes.
7 additional hours or --
9 maintain, we do with field trips, like we take schools to different places where they
10 have to -- you know, training and different stuff, so that makes up a lot of the
11 difference of what we make other than our -- actually, we are guaranteed 25 hours a
12 week.
15 Q. And from last year, you made 33,000. I guess you on a number of occasions
16 are able to work over that to be able to make 33,000, based on availability of work?
17 A. And, well, that’s based on me working in other parts of town, going to work
18 for other First Student companies in Missouri, you know, when they were starting up.
19 So a lot of the income we’re doing a lot of extra stuff. It’s not just basically one strict
20 thing. We could be doing a lot of other things. So this year, it could be we could get
21 more hours this time. Next year, it might go down. Depends on the availability of
23 Q. Okay.
25 and it was received Petitioner’s Exhibit 163, which is the income and expense
85
1 statement of the Respondent.
12 Well, you can look for it during the break or at lunch here, but let’s -- let’s
21 it and give everybody a copy? It’s the exact same one you just put in. I don’t know
24 MS. HESSENFLOW: I know you have it, but nobody -- the Judge can’t find
86
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Thank you. Respondent’s 49, which is the
13 BY MR. MCKINZY:
17 MR. MCKINZY: What her current rent where she resides is.
24 BY MR. MCKINZY:
25 Q. 603?
87
1 A. Yes.
6 Q. What would you estimate your -- your -- for your residence or rental cost for
7 living?
8 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, I’m going to object at this time and ask -
18 MS. HESSENFLOW: -- specific things, that’s fine, but it’s all on paper.
22 Mr. McKinzy.
25 49.
88
1 MR. MCKINZY: Okay.
7 BY MR. MCKINZY:
8 Q. So I’ll offer -- ask you to Exhibit 49 on the fourth page, at the date of last
11 Q. Modification.
17 Q. But at any rate, that’s -- currently, that’s almost double -- you’ve almost
18 increased your income by double from what was provided last -- on the last
19 modification? Would you agree, at 3,000, that’s approximately double your income?
89
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: I think that’s the point you’re trying to
2 make, correct?
12 another witness, let’s -- let’s break for that, and we’ll resume right at 1:00.
15 o0o
19 Ms. Hessenflow, did you want to have questions of your client now or
22 and I don’t mean this in a bad way. With Mr. McKinzy being a pro se, I think maybe
23 if he did maintenance, maintenance, and then we did what’s owed, what’s owed, it
24 would be easier to keep track and for you to have a compact unit of what both sides
25 have to say.
90
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Do you have any objection to that,
2 Mr. McKinzy?
4 the maintenance and then digging in to what’s owed, what the interest, what the
5 attorney’s fees are, I’m just going to ask her questions about the maintenance. And
6 then if you want to testify or you have other witnesses, you can, and then we’ll move
7 to the next issue and everybody will get to testify and say their thing.
12 take the stand again. I know you’ve been back and forth all morning, but --
14 much paperwork as there is, it’ll be easier to keep track of that way, I hope.
16 All right. Ms. Gaston, remember that you’re still under oath, all right?
19 Q. All right. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s
20 Exhibit 5 and ask you if you recognize that as your modification asset and debt
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- by the Petitioner.
24 MS. HESSENFLOW: Just for ease of not having to dig it out and so
91
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: And it’s received.
4 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
6 A. No.
7 Q. No home?
8 A. No. No.
10 A. No.
11 Q. You don’t have any assets that produce income that are worth anything that
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you have any more property that you could use to support yourself today
16 A. No.
18 A. No.
19 Q. You have debt, you pay rent, you pay your utilities, you still have no property
21 A. That’s correct.
22 Q. Now, we saw Petitioner’s Exhibit 164 and 165, which were your bank
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And if the law is that delinquent child support arrearages are not property and
92
1 not income, is there any other source besides your income and child support
2 arrearages that you’ve been receiving for about a year and a half that you have
4 A. No.
5 Q. Nothing else?
6 A. No.
7 Q. No other jobs?
8 A. No.
9 Q. No rich boyfriend?
10 A. No.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. So in 2015, for the first time in several years, you began receiving
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that is money you are receiving by virtue of the wage withholding that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That does not come into your bank account, does it?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How do you receive those delinquent child support payments that are coming
93
1 Q. What kind of card?
2 A. A SecuritE Card.
4 A. As his funds come in, they load them on, and then the card is sent to me,
6 Q. Okay. Prior to February of ’15, when you started receiving those, you didn’t
8 A. No.
9 Q. In fact, if the Judge looks at January of ’15, you didn’t have thousands of
11 A. No.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the delinquent child support that you’re getting goes onto a card?
15 A. Yes.
18 Q. So as expenses come in, you use that card until there’s no more money left on
19 it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then you go back and use your money out of your UMB account?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And because you’re getting that extra money, you’re not having to spend all
24 of your wages?
25 A. Yes.
94
1 Q. And over the past 15 months, you’ve got about 2,000 extra in there?
2 A. Yeah.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that money that is coming in that should have been paid to you years ago
6 also enables you, over the past year and a half that you testified, to help your
7 daughter, your grandkids, your mother, and for a little while one of your sons?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you be able to do that had you not been receiving that additional
12 Q. Do you, without the child support, earn enough money on your own to pay
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. Now, the Court has already received Respondent’s Exhibit 49. I’m
16 going to ask you to take a look at that. That’s not your average monthly income, is
17 it?
18 A. No.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Part of the year, during the regular school year, in the fall and the spring, you
23 A. Yes.
25 A. Yes.
95
1 Q. That shows what you earn during the spring and fall semesters when you earn
3 A. Yes.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. During -- does that show what you receive in every month during the year?
7 A. No. Huh-uh.
8 Q. So even though he was provided all four income and expense statements, the
9 one he offered is the one that shows the most that you earn, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. But this does accurately reflect what you earn during the 37 weeks out of the
13 A. Yes.
15 A. Uh-huh.
17 A. Uh-huh.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Are you aware that maintenance isn’t based on gross income like child
25 support? It’s based on what you actually have and what you actually need to spend
96
1 in a month?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Have you also set forth on pages 2, 3, and 4 all of your reasonable monthly
4 expenses?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And are your reasonable monthly expenses just under 3,000 a month?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Around --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- 2,987?
11 A. Yes.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So even if we went on the highest income you earn during the year, you’re
16 just breaking even and only for that portion of the year?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What is putting you over, allowing you to save up a little bit and help your
19 family, is the money coming in from him for support from years ago, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Now, let’s look at what you actually earn the rest of the year. I’m
22 going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 47 and ask you if
23 you recognize that as your income and expense statement for the eight weeks out of
25 A. Yes.
97
1 Q. That’s over Christmas break, spring break?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. The Mondays when you’re off for Martin Luther King, President’s Day?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Yes?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And those few weeks between when school lets out in the spring and it starts
9 A. Correct.
11 A. Yeah, whenever.
12 Q. Even when you do that, there’s eight weeks during the year no kids are riding
13 on buses?
14 A. Right.
16 A. Yes.
18 A. No.
19 MR. MCKINZY: I want to object to -- she previously testified that she used -
20 - during the summer months, that she obtained additional income doing summer
21 additional projects.
23 cross-examine her --
98
1 MR. MCKINZY: Okay.
11 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
12 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 48
13 and ask you if you recognize that as yet another statement of income and expenses.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Your expenses again are the same at any given time; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And during those seven weeks, you don’t earn nothing? You earn money?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But you don’t earn as much as you do during the school year?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Does Respondent’s Exhibit 48 accurately reflect what you earn when you
24 drive during summer school for the seven weeks during the middle of school?
25 A. Yes.
99
1 MS. HESSENFLOW: Offer Respondent’s Exhibit 48.
7 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
8 Q. So I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit
9 46 and ask you if you recognize that as your fourth and final income and expense
10 statement?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Again, your -- your expenses are the same all year round?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. This one, however, we added up the weeks when school’s in session full-
15 time?
16 A. Uh-huh.
18 A. Yes.
20 A. Yes.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. To get your average, if you average the whole year, what they take out for
24 taxes, what your gross income is, what your net income is, what you’re actually
100
1 A. Yes.
7 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
8 Q. 46, I mean.
9 A. Okay. 46.
10 Q. That’s the -- the best average of all different types of work and not work that
12 A. Yes.
19 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
20 Q. Your gross wages per pay period on average for the year are about 550 a
21 month (sic)?
22 A. Yes.
24 A. Yes.
101
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you have on average during the school year, when you’re not working at
3 all, or during the summer -- is there any time during the school year where you earn
4 more money that you bring home after taxes to pay your bills than what you make?
5 A. No.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that’s working year round, summer, all the other stuff you talked about?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If it weren’t for the money you’ve been blessed to receive the past year and a
11 half, would you be able even today to support yourself on your own employment?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Now, I’ve explained to you that child support under Missouri law is not
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Is that correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. But we’re human beings and we live in the real world; is that correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And you’re -- that -- that’s a huge boom to your monthly income, that money
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. You can’t go back in time and use it back then when you really needed it?
24 A. No.
25 Q. But you’re using it now and in fact you’re still helping your kids with it?
102
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. At present, are you willing to concede that you’re doing okay and you don’t
3 need, right now while that money’s coming in, 200 extra a month?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. We’re asking the Court to find that you’re still entitled to it and 200 staying
7 A. Right.
8 Q. But in your responsive pleading, you stated that you would be willing and as
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Why on earth would you want a dollar a month? What are you going to do
14 A. Nothing.
15 Q. Are you asking the Court not -- if the Court doesn’t leave the 200, are you
16 asking the Court, rather than terminating your maintenance, to enter a dollar for a
18 A. Yes.
21 Q. There you go. The only reason you are where you are is because you are now
22 getting money you were supposed to get more than a decade ago?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And if he --
103
1 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
2 Q. But in the past, there have been periods of years where he will quit a job
3 where there’s a wage withholding in effect and you won’t get anything?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And if all of the sudden, that wage withholding for that old child support
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you want to be able to come back to the Court and address it at that
9 time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are you therefore asking the Court to find that you have no more property
12 with which to support yourself than you had at the time, given the cost of living
14 A. Correct.
16 A. Correct.
18 dollar, given the very unique circumstances and the additional money coming into
19 your household?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Now, he also offered your 2015 W-2. I think it was Exhibit 166. And he
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That’s before they took about $8,000 in taxes, insurance, and other things out,
25 correct?
104
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. So what was available to you to provide for your needs was about $25,441?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Divided by 12?
5 A. Oh, yeah.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. He also offered an old Form 14 that showed a decade ago in 2007 your
9 income was 1,600 a month, and he showed based on the one that your income has
11 A. No.
12 Q. He used the one Form 14 that had the higher amount for those semesters
14 A. Right.
16 A. Right.
17 Q. The difference between what you earned then and what you’re earning now is
19 A. Correct.
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Are you asking the Court to find that your expenses are reasonable and that
23 the documents we introduced into evidence adequately reflect what you actually earn,
25 A. Correct.
105
1 MS. HESSENFLOW: That’s my cross.
3 Mr. McKinzy?
9 Q. You don’t? Do you recall receiving a lump sum payment from the 401(k) for
11 MS. HESSENFLOW: I’m sorry to interrupt. Are you talking about the
21 BY MR. MCKINZY:
25 A. Oh, okay.
106
1 MR. MCKINZY: Affidavit from --
6 Respondent’s 17.
15 BY MR. MCKINZY:
16 Q. Did you receive $17,816.04 for back child support in 2006 from the QDRO,
19 Q. That was the gross payoff. The affidavit states that it was paid out to you.
21 Q. Okay. On November -- it states that you were the payee submitted to for the
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. That’s all I’m saying. It was something paid out to me, but it wasn’t 17,000.
107
1 I think it was more like 14.
4 Q. Yeah, this affidavit from the custodian of records for -- for the --
10 THE WITNESS: Okay. It was paid out, but 17,000, I didn’t get the whole --
12 BY MR. MCKINZY:
15 Q. In addition to that, you also received a lump sum payment in 2006 for what
18 as 17.
24 THE WITNESS: And what did you say this one was for?
25 BY MR. MCKINZY:
108
1 Q. It was for past due maintenance that was collected via the 401(k) and annuity
2 that was paid out as past due maintenance. Did you receive that amount -- amount to
8 A. Okay. $3,208.42.
11 Q. Yes. On those two amounts, similar to the credit that you gave for Michael’s
12 emancipation, did you file an affidavit giving credit for what the Court -- do you
15 separated, then she would do the backup to make sure the Court got credit -- I mean,
17 Q. So the amounts that were paid out to you, you are not aware personally
18 whether or not credit was provided, but you signed an affidavit stating that it was
20 A. Well, at the time -- well, at the time, my attorney told me that she had filed
21 the necessary papers and that it was, you know, supposed to have been handled. So
22 other than her doing what she needed to do, I -- I can only answer that, you know,
109
1 MR. MCKINZY: Was credit --
3 MR. MCKINZY: -- that she received the money and was she aware that she
6 answer. She left it up to her attorney. But I thought the approach you were going to
12 support --
19 you want, but I thought that was the approach we were going to take.
24 client?
110
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: All right. Ma’am, you may step down.
4 maintenance.
6 and we’ve neglected -- or we haven’t neglected, but you brought up the issue of
7 taking out of turn Mr. McKinzy’s client. Is that still on the table, or what are we
9 MS. HESSENFLOW: Yes, I have about six questions for her, and --
19 approach that witness chair, if you would, please. When you get there, just raise your
22 (Witness sworn.)
111
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: -- we’ll need to have you speak up.
8 Q. And are you currently married to Mr. Michael McKinzy, who is present in
9 the courtroom?
10 A. Yes.
13 Q. Valentine’s Day?
16 A. Yes.
18 A. No.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you work?
22 A. Yes.
24 A. Macy’s.
112
1 A. I’m a part-time merchandising.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And have you received then kind -- you probably got a pay stub towards the
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How much have you earned, approximately? And I don’t expect a dollar and
10 a penny, but between September and now, about how much did you earn at Macy’s
16 A. 10.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. And prior to that, where did you work? Did you work somewhere
21 A. Yes, also, in the summer, I work for the Royals stadium. I’m a cashier at the
22 stadium.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. And about how much did you earn doing that, if you know?
113
1 A. About the same amount, about 10 an hour.
2 Q. And about how many hours did you work over the summer? I know there’s a
4 A. Yeah, it -- it -- it -- it varies because I only work when they have the baseball
5 games.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did you do any other -- anything else this year when you worked?
11 A. No.
14 your wife?
17 Q. Do you know when was the first time that you resided in the same residence
18 prior to our marriage -- how much of a period that we resided together when we first
20 A. Seven years.
25 MR. MCKINZY: During that period, were -- do you recall whether or not I
114
1 was employed?
3 asking the witness about income information about prior years that I asked for tax
4 returns and other things, and I object to that. He’s kind of going around about here.
5 If he wants to ask if she knows what his current income is, which is what the Court
6 needs, that’s fine. Secondly, income from years ago is irrelevant to maintenance
9 what you made in 2007 when it comes to the maintenance issue. The order was in
10 place, whatever it was. And so I’m really focusing on what are the current incomes
11 now.
21 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, you did -- have issued an order sealing
22 the case --
115
1 courtroom if you so desire. And we’ll move on now to -- does that take care of the
8 chair, and remember that you’re still under oath, Mr. McKinzy.
14 having a current spouse and having the responsibility of providing housing and
18 marriages removed. And due to the demonstrated ability that she has shown, gross
20 furtherance of -- no need for further support from me. Given also the testimony that
21 she’s provided that she’s -- in excess of providing for herself, she’s chosen to provide
22 for a emancipated -- our emancipated daughter and her two children and have
24 $400 for medical expense, in addition to providing the initial expense that is incurred
116
1 further -- no further need for financial support of maintenance and my inability to
2 provide support due to my current financial status of being currently employed and
9 Q. You offered into evidence an old Form 14, Exhibit 102, showing the income
10 that both of you had during the 2007 child support modification as evidence of what
15 Q. Is that what was on the exhibit that you offered into evidence?
16 A. That was what’s on the exhibit. I was currently unemployed. I had been
17 unemployed since December of 2005, all the way through May of 2008, which I
19 Q. Is that a no, your income then wasn’t what it shows on the exhibit you
20 offered?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. All right. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s
23 Exhibit 42 and ask you if you recognize that as copies of the pay stubs that you
24 provided in discovery.
25 A. Yes.
117
1 Q. You were working -- you started in early 2015 working for Hillshire Brands
2 through UltiPro, but presently you work for Hillshire Brands through Tyson; is that
3 correct?
5 Q. So in the discovery documents that you provided, it shows what you were
6 earning the first half of the year of 2016, as well as what you were earning in -- those
7 are the -- those are the stubs you gave me, right?
9 Q. Did you in fact get a 50 cent an hour raise when you switched over to Tyson?
12 A. I was -- yeah, I got an increase, but I didn’t switch -- I was employed directly
13 by Tyson from --
14 Q. You’re earning a little bit more money now than you were even on the pay
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right.
24 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
25 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 58 and
118
1 ask you if you recognize that as the last of the pay stubs in the stack you gave me, the
2 one for pay period starting 6/5/16 and pay period ending 6/11/2016.
6 Q. So this doesn’t show what you earned all year, this just shows what you
9 Q. Right. And as of week 23, if you look down at the bottom, you had year-to-
12 Q. Right.
13 A. Okay. Gross, well, it doesn’t break down gross. I haven’t added it up, but I
15 Q. And if you divide by that -- by the 23 pay periods, because you get paid
16 weekly, right?
18 Q. That’s $1,181.56 per week? Now, obviously, some weeks you got more,
19 some weeks you got less. But if you divide your year-to-date by the 23 weeks, that’s
21 A. That’s the average. But, like I said, I am not -- we currently are on a -- where
23 Q. Sure. Sometimes you earn more, sometimes you earn less. This is an
25 A. Yes.
119
1 Q. -- first six months that you gave me stubs for --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- correct? And if we take that 1,181 times 52 weeks, to extrapolate what you
4 are scheduled to earn based on the first six months, that would be $61,441.12?
8 intend to submit into evidence what the actual income for the 2015 is.
9 Q. And you provided that for me in discovery and updated that instead of having
12 Q. It’s going to be hard for you to introduce it into evidence, isn’t it?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, at this time, I’d ask to strike the
15 testimony about his income being different for the second half of 2016 than it was on
16 the pay stubs that he provided. Again, I requested pay stubs and tax returns. I’m
17 having to go based upon what he gave me. Now he’s saying his income is different.
18 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: The Court will take note of what the pay
19 stubs actually show, and I’ll do the math in terms that I can appreciate. So to that
21 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
22 Q. All right. So the Court can obviously see the math, see what you earned,
23 divide by the number of weeks, and get an estimate as to what you might be earning
120
1 58 as an aid to the Court for the Court to make its own conclusions about the accurate
2 monthly income.
8 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
9 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 53
10 and ask you if you recognize that as your year-end 2015 pay stub that you gave me as
22 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
23 Q. And you didn’t work the whole year of 2015 there; you started a little bit into
25 A. That is correct.
121
1 Q. So you only worked there for 33 weeks? The first 19 weeks of the year, you
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. So that $44,641 is for the 33 weeks that you worked there. And if we divide
6 A. That’s about, yes, but, once again, I stated the fluctuation of work. You’re
7 not given the same amount of 40 hours. Sometimes you -- you work less than that
9 Q. Okay. But so far in the documents that you’ve provided in this job, you are
11 the middle of the summer, of about 5,120 per month, according to your own
12 documents?
14 W-2 or the last statement of what the actual income was for, so there’s no need for --
16 A. It is the year-end statement, and it shows actual income for a total of $44,641.
18 A. Yes.
20 that the Court can make its own determinations about the earning capacity.
22 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
122
1 MS. HESSENFLOW: There should be one in the notebook too, but here’s
2 one.
4 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
7 Q. So in addition to that 44,000, you had additional income through the temp
8 service, correct?
10 Q. Okay. And that would match the figure on that Social Security you showed
13 Q. So you earned more than what’s even showing on that pay stub in 2015?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you have any other businesses or anything else that you do to earn
18 money?
19 A. I have businesses, but they are not currently providing any income. In fact,
20 they are providing out -- out -- it’s a lag. I’m trying to maintain them -- just the
21 operational costs.
23 was do you do anything else or have any other businesses that provide you with
24 income.
123
1 the question --
4 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
5 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 60 and
6 ask you if you recognize that as a copy with some additions of your income and
7 expense statement.
9 Q. And on page 3, do you show that your average expenses, monthly expenses,
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you include in there the expenses for the safari and the note to the Buick
13 under automobiles?
14 A. Where is automobiles?
19 Mr. McKinzy. Please offer the exhibit before you have him testify from it.
22 Mr. McKinzy?
124
1 (AT THIS TIME RESPONDENT’S EXHIBIT 60 WAS RECEIVED IN
3 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
7 Q. Can you look at the top of page 3, under maintenance or alimony paid by me
8 to other persons, $200? So 3,788 are the expenses -- is the maintenance you pay her,
13 Q. And in determining your take-home pay, you took out the 238 per week for a
14 little over 1,200 a month you’re paying in child support, on page 1? Under others?
17 maintenance, you’ve already taken her child support out on the front side out of your
18 income, correct?
19 A. I completed the form to the best of my ability. It stated the child support, yes.
20 Q. And in determining your expenses, you added in the maintenance that you
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Even at 3,788, without any consideration for your spouse’s income, is 3,788
24 less than 5,862 or 5,120 per month, if the Court uses the figures on your 2015 and
125
1 A. It would appear to be less.
2 Q. So you would have extra even if I don’t pick any of your expenses apart,
3 leave the maintenance in, and leave the child support as a deduction from your
6 Q. You also have a wife who earns between 1,000 and 1,250 a month, depending
7 upon whether there’s a fifth week, and that -- her money comes in and you guys live
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. I think she testified it was around 1,000. I don’t think she testified 1,200.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Is that correct?
16 Q. And that’s on top of the income you earned that’s already enough to cover all
23 MR. MCKINZY: I would just reflect that the expenses that were given were
24 based on expenses that were incurred and that the anticipation of continuing to
25 provide support over a 14-year period from the time of divorce was not ever deemed
126
1 to be expected.
5 Does that conclude the evidence, then, from both sides regarding the
6 maintenance issue?
11 correct?
127
1 Honor, not --
6 maintenance and owed no more child support. He didn’t plead to calculate and
7 determine what, if anything, is owed and what that figure is, but --
9 MR. MCKINZY: No, I was -- the motions to calculate the child support
10 obligation of --
15 that and determined a range of arrearage, based on that testimony, that it included
19 to allow --
22 So, Ms. Gaston, if you would resume the witness chair, and, again, for about
128
1 proceed.
4 child support arrearages, unless it’s already been determined by a different court
5 order, you know, anything moving forward from that, I -- I’m willing to take. If
6 there’s been no prior determination of arrearage, then it’s open, all right?
10 MR. MCKINZY: Well, this is the -- this is the first hearing from the -- since
16 It is a calculation from 2002 to 2007 in the old administrative case that has been
17 closed since 2007, was consolidated into the divorce case, and all the payments and
18 arrearages owed at that time were transferred to the divorce case. There are no active
19 payments, arrearages, anything owed in the administrative case. We need to get over
20 to the divorce to find out what -- so I’m going to object to going back in to stuff prior
21 to the consolidation.
23 occurred.
24 Mr. McKinzy, is that what happened in the divorce, they -- they -- they found
25 in the divorce decree what the arrearages were that had accumulated under the
129
1 administrative order?
2 MR. MCKINZY: There was -- the administrative order was what the child
3 support in the divorce was based on. There was no determination by the Court of
4 child support.
6 divorce decree?
7 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, I do, but it -- it -- the divorce decree does
8 not say a set amount of arrearages. It incorporates the monthly prospective child
9 support amount from the administrative order. It is the later 2008 motion to
10 consolidate that consolidates the two and establishes all the payments to be recorded
11 in the divorce case. And all of that has already been admitted in May.
16 administrative order?
17 MS. HESSENFLOW: The administrative order was earlier that year, Your
18 Honor.
23 Court finds there is currently an order for child support in place under the
24 administrative order, showing a presumed amount of $1,165 per month. The Court
25 finds that the order is not rebutted, is unjust, or inappropriate, and therefore the
130
1 correct amount of child support to be paid going forward.” Do you agree with that
2 much?
15 MS. HESSENFLOW: Yes. Your Honor, I offered all of that in on the 19th.
19 MS. HESSENFLOW: You know, I’ll -- I’ll withdraw the objection. I’ll just
25 know what it is. It’s not a payment history report or an official record of the Court, I
131
1 know that.
3 MR. MCKINZY: It’s what I was shown at the time that the order of what my
4 child support would be if -- as the kids are emancipated. This is what induced me to
7 know, but I doubt this witness knows what your -- what you’ve -- did you calculate
8 this?
9 MR. MCKINZY: No, this is a -- this is what I was shown per child, what it
10 would be at their 18th -- when I went down there, they said this is what -- I was
11 voluntarily paying her $1,600 a month. They came and said 1,165 and 291.25 a
12 month and they counted that spreadsheet, “This is what you would pay out if you
13 voluntary -- you and her had an agreement. This is what it would look like, the
21 effective as a Judge’s order if it’s been approved, and apparently the ones I’ve seen
22 have been. When there’s a amount of support for four children and it says one lump
23 sum for four children, that lump sum remains in place no matter how many children
25 MR. MCKINZY: And what I was -- what I’m trying to get to the Court’s
132
1 attention is that the -- there’s three orders on file in this case or between the parties.
2 There was a voluntary order that Ms. Gaston went down there and initiated.
4 order?
5 MR. MCKINZY: The administrative -- well, no, before that, there was a
9 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: And then there was the divorce and then
12 which --
18 Q. In -- beginning in July of 2002, you did receive the lump sum of 1,165; do
19 you recall -- when the child support order was put into place? The first month was
25 your case.
133
1 MR. MCKINZY: Okay.
4 MR. MCKINZY: Okay. This is Exhibit I guess 169 and 168. I offer as the
5 current as of today and the original administrative case, which the original payments
6 were paid.
8 closed for ten years, but if you want to show what was owed when it was closed,
9 that’s fine.
10 BY MR. MCKINZY:
14 MR. MCKINZY: This is an exhibit that I obtained from the Court of the total
23 arrearage is in 2007?
24 MR. MCKINZY: That’s the -- that’s the period that all the -- by that time, all
134
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Go ahead and proceed.
2 BY MR. MCKINZY:
3 Q. Does it show a 2007 payment of 1,165 and for August 2007 a payment of
4 1,165?
9 A. July of 2002.
11 A. 1,165.
12 Q. You didn’t receive those payments? That was the beginning of the child
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were there -- was that considered full payment of child support for both of --
19 A. Yeah.
21 A. 1,165 --
23 A. -- for 7, 8, 9.
25 A. Yes.
135
1 Q. There was no arrearage in each of those months because the payment was
2 received?
4 Q. Okay.
11 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: What’s -- what was the prior one you had
15 believe.
136
1 Support.
11 received.
15 BY MR. MCKINZY:
17 A. Uh-huh. 9/20/02.
18 Q. 9/20/02. And is the withholding order that was produced -- do you see if
19 there was an arrearage as of September 2002? Does it reflect an arrearage that was --
20 A. No, I don’t see any. It just shows what you were ordered to pay.
25 Q. But in that September 2002, there was no arrearage due? You had received
137
1 all your child support for those months, you’ve testified?
2 A. 7, 8, and 9?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Uh-huh.
6 A. Yeah.
8 order was establishing in July and you had received three payments as of July,
12 A. Three.
14 A. Uh-huh.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- arrearage as of September?
21 Q. If there was an arrearage created going forward per month, would you expect
22 that to increase per month if it was not due? If it was 291 arrearage as of September,
24 A. I’m not --
138
1 THE WITNESS: -- I don’t understand.
3 -- I believe the competing motions are is to determine what is owed in past due child
4 support and maintenance, if anything, which this is showing the total owed, the total
5 paid, and what we believe the evidence is as to what is still owed. And that’s -- that’s
6 it. That’s all the task that we have here, not who gave him stuff at child support, not
10 MR. MCKINZY: -- and it’s a numbers business and nature that first the child
11 support was established based on administrative order that was in effect prior to the
12 divorce proceeding. There was -- there has not been any other modification
14 hearing. So the original child support was based on the original administrative order
15 that was in effect as of July 2002. So my argument is that there was a fabricated past
18 years --
25 divorce, Mr. McKinzy, that the prior administrative order was found to be unrebutted
139
1 and -- and just and appropriate and nothing wrong with it, so they ordered that in
2 your divorce decree, and that’s the order that went forward.
3 MR. MCKINZY: Right. And that’s the only order that’s been in effect since
4 December of 2007. There is no other order that was consolidated. Everything was
7 this is a mathematical exercise. It’s showing what order was entered when, what
8 payments have been made since, what, if anything, is due and owing. It’s that
9 simple.
12 that, but that’s the methodology. Opinions about -- or those kinds of things have no
13 place in -- in this particular part of the exercise, because we need to show proof of
14 what the order was, what was paid or what was not paid. And it’s -- it’s -- that’s
18 let’s stick with what’s been paid since, when it was modified, what changed, and
24 previously admitted.
140
1 MS. HESSENFLOW: Yes, fine.
6 MR. MCKINZY: This shows that as of the date that all kids were
8 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Not the way I read it. This shows as of the
9 December 2007 date, right? Is that when the emancipation occurred of the first
10 three?
18 process. I have letters to that effect that Barbara was emancipated as of December
19 2007.
23 MS. HESSENFLOW: And then it was consolidated and that arrearage was
24 transferred to the divorce printout, and the future payments and amounts owed
141
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: All right. Go ahead, Mr. McKinzy.
2 BY MR. MCKINZY:
4 emancipated?
6 answered.
8 as a preliminary matter. Remember when you took the stand and we looked at those
9 orders?
12 BY MR. MCKINZY:
15 exhibit, but I don’t think it means what you think it does, so I’ll let you inquire, and I
19 BY MR. MCKINZY:
23 of the current child support. It’s from the Division of Child Support, dated April 27,
142
1 MR. MCKINZY: Yes.
4 enforcement for current child support for child Barbara McKinzy on January 6,
5 2004.” That was -- that’s notification that current support for Barbara had been
6 terminated.
13 BY MR. MCKINZY:
16 before the judicial emancipation. Again, it’s in the administrative case, but that’s
19 BY MR. MCKINZY:
23 received.
143
1 THE WITNESS: “Dear Michael Eugene McKinzy, each of the children on
2 this case are considered to be emancipated; however, they have not been judicially
4 BY MR. MCKINZY:
7 Q. And that would have been prior to any administrative decision that was
14 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 32,
15 which is already in evidence in this case and present in the Court’s notebook. It was
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is that the one that establishes child support in the amount of $1,1065 per
20 month?
21 A. Yes, it does.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Very carefully, does that have the case number 02MC201872? Up at the top,
25 is it a MC case number?
144
1 A. Uh-huh, 02MC201872.
2 MS. HESSENFLOW: All right. I’m not going to offer it, Your Honor. It’s
3 already in evidence.
4 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
5 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 30,
6 which is also already in evidence from the hearing on 5/19/2016, which I purport to
7 be a detailed payment history report certified by the clerk of the court, showing all
8 child support received, paid, owed, and maintenance received, paid, and owed -- no,
10 A. Yes.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Does it show all child support ever owed and ever paid pursuant to the
14 administrative order?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And if you could click back, please, about halfway through until you get to a
17 -- a page -- it says page 5 in the top corner, and at the bottom entry on the page is 7 of
18 2002. It says page 5 in the top corner. At the bottom, the last entry is 7 of 2002. Did
21 Q. And we just talked about the administrative order says child support starts in
22 7 of 2002, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr. McKinzy was very concerned to make sure that he had received credit
25 for his payments of July, August, and September of 2002 and that he didn’t have an
145
1 arrearage, correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Does this printout properly show that he received credit for and you received,
5 A. Correct.
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. And does this payment history accurately reflect all of the
9 additional payments owed and all of the payments received under the administrative
10 case order?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Can you turn to the previous page, page 4? And just hold it there, and I’m
13 going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 23, again, already in
16 Patrick Campbell, emancipating the three older children and establishing a child
17 support payment for your son only in the amount of $599 per month; is that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And you also were receiving maintenance in the amount of $200 per month,
20 correct?
21 A. Correct.
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. -- does it show between January and February, that once those children were
146
1 A. Uh-huh.
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. -- down to 799 per month, which is the 599 in the administrative modification
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And it continues to show only your $200 per month and the 599 for your
8 remaining unemancipated child all the way up through 11 of 2007; is that correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Next month, judicial emancipation of your other child and there’s no more
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. However, if you look across from 11 of 2007, at that time, there were
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And those hung out there on this printout for a couple of months, didn’t they?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. Let’s see what happened to those. I’m going to hand you now
19 what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 1 and ask you if you recognize that as a
21 A. Yes, it is.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you and Mr. McKinzy were pro so? In fact, he was the pro se Petitioner
147
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. He did not file a motion to consolidate the administrative case into the
3 divorce case? In fact, there’s no indication that the divorce -- that Child Support
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. In fact, they did not open a child support case for the divorce decree? They
7 continued pursuant to Respondent’s Exhibit 30 to process all child support owed and
8 even the maintenance owed after the divorce decree in that old administrative case
10 A. Correct.
13 A. Yes.
15 A. Yes.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And we consolidated these things so there were not two separate orders with
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 36, also
22 in evidence from the hearing on 5/15, and ask you if that’s an order of consolidation.
23 A. Yes, it is.
25 A. Yes.
148
1 Q. “This Court determines that nowhere in the record of 02FC200809, the
3 support case, has a former order of consolidation been issued. And for judicial
4 economy and in order to facilitate the resolution of all pending issues, the Court finds
5 good cause to exist, all future pleadings, et cetera, et cetera consolidated,” and from
6 that day forward, everything was to be filed and processed under 02FC200809, the
8 A. That’s correct.
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. All right. Now, go back super quick for me to Respondent’s Exhibit 30, and
12 let’s take a look at what happened in December of 2007 when Judge Campbell issued
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. As of December of 2007, the 799 goes away, they show nothing else owed,
16 nothing else paid, that arrearage is just sitting out there. That’s what was owed as of
17 that time when the Judge said keep track of it over here from now on; is that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 15,
20 already in evidence from the hearing on 5/19/2016, and ask you if you recognize that
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. All right. I’d like you to click all the way back, please, to page 4, where the
149
1 all right?
9 MS. HESSENFLOW: -- you’ll find the first entry corresponds and picks up
14 in May.
15 MR. MCKINZY: Oh, no, but I’ll -- I have the current as of today. That’s
22 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
23 Q. Okay. So if you look on page 4, right where the 799 a month for the current
24 support of 599 for your youngest son and the 200 per month in maintenance leaves
150
1 A. Yes.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And remember we talked about those arrearages that were hanging out on the
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Look under 3/2008, the month that they disappeared from the administrative
8 order.
9 A. Yes.
11 A. Correct.
13 made from that time forward stopped being recorded or accounted for on the
14 administrative and began being accounted for exclusively on the divorce printout?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And those arrearages that had already accumulated and were still owed were
17 transferred over so that you had one printout that shows what’s been paid, what’s
19 A. Correct.
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. All right. Now, Mr. McKinzy also asked you about whether or not he
23 received credit for the amounts that we seized pursuant to QDROs for maintenance
25 A. Correct.
151
1 Q. And in May, we offered the orders, the affidavit of credits, all of that stuff,
2 it’s already in evidence. We offered six exhibits outlining where all that money went
3 and the affidavits of credit, and in fact they’re showing on the Court’s records for this
4 case, correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. So I’m going to hand you back -- and I know he used different exhibit
7 numbers, but just for economy, Respondent’s Exhibit 17 and Respondent’s Exhibit
8 18, which are already in evidence from the hearing on 5/19/2016, and they’re the
9 same affidavits that Mr. McKinzy discussed with you a little while ago, although
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And he wanted to make sure that these had been included in the credits,
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And we went over this in detail, about 30 minutes’ worth, that May, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Just for short and sweet, on Respondent’s Exhibit 17, can you please
19 $3,208.42?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you pick up Respondent’s 18, the affidavit for child support?
152
1 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
2 Q. And can you turn to page 2? And can you look at paragraph 7?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, he’s getting confused over the amounts, but if you look at paragraph 6,
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In paragraph 7, the -- it says that the amount of past due child support we
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 34.
11 Again, this is already in evidence from the hearing on 5/19, and I’m going to ask you
12 if you recognize that as an omnibus printout detailing everything owed and paid
13 under the administrative order and everything owed and paid under the divorce court
14 order up through the date of that hearing in May or right before it. Specifically,
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. All right. And does this document show every single payment made by or on
18 Mr. McKinzy’s behalf in both the administrative and the child support -- or and the
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And it also shows the amounts owed for 1,363, then drop down to 799, then
22 eventually dropping down when your older son was emancipated, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Now, let’s make sure we gave him credit for those things we took out of his
25 pension.
153
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. So I’m going to ask you to go all the way back to page 1. And, again, he has
3 credit for those first three payments of 1,165 he gave you directly, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Moving along. Moving along. If you can go now to -- just keep
6 flipping over until you get to -- to a page that says page 13. And we’re in 2006s and
7 2007s. It starts with 6/30/2006 as the top number. Have you found it?
8 A. Yes.
14 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
15 Q. All right. Let’s go down to 12/29/2006. Do we give him credit for the
17 A. Yes.
20 A. He does.
22 income tax refund that I found that wasn’t showing on either printout?
23 A. Yes.
25 A. Yes.
154
1 Q. I told you the right thing to do is give the man credit for it. They took it from
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Let’s flip over. Now, this shows the payments due of 1,365 all the
5 way up until December of 2006, and then starting with January of 2007, it drops
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Now, flip over to page 14. It shows the 799 due every month. It
9 shows everything he paid. Next page shows the 799 due. Now, there’s a problem,
11 A. Okay.
13 A. Yes.
15 A. Right.
16 Q. It shouldn’t have been 599 after May. As of June, it should have just been
18 A. Right on.
19 Q. But even though you sent the affidavit in and he sent like five letters in, for
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And then that just continued to show 799 due that’s not supposed to, all the
24 A. Right. Correct.
155
1 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, it’s 2/15/2011. It’s on page 16. One of
2 Mr. McKinzy’s duteous letters finally got somebody’s attention and they
3 emancipated this kid, who by then was over 21. And you’ll see at that point it drops
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Now, he then --
10 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
13 A. Yeah.
15 A. Yes.
17 A. Yes.
19 emancipated, correct?
20 A. Yes.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Can you look at the last page and look at 3/11/2016? While you’re doing
24 that, I’m going to talk and ask you if this information is correct. Even though I didn’t
156
1 December, January, you’re calling me, calling me, calling me, correct?
2 A. Correct.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And I had you come in, in March, because I wanted to see kind of what was
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And is this another one of these that you aren’t real happy with me?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I told you that he deserved a credit for 10,722. Even though legally you
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And I told you I wouldn’t represent you if you didn’t do the right thing and
15 A. Right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Does this accurately reflect, as it did in May, that as of 4/13/2016, the total
19 principal for child support and arrearages owed, after all of the credits have been
21 A. Correct.
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. All right. And then we all went away for a little while. We were supposed to
157
1 come back in July, correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 3
4 and ask if you recognize that as a copy of a child support printout in the divorce case
5 that shows the additional payments made between April of 2016 all the way up
7 A. Yes.
9 And, sir, I didn’t give you a copy of that yet, because we didn’t have the trial
10 that day.
17 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
18 Q. And does Respondent’s 3 show all the additional -- nothing has changed as
19 far as when people were emancipated, all the credits that are on there, but it does
20 show the additional payments that Mr. McKinzy made in the amount of 236.64
21 weekly. And if you go to the very, very back of this one and work your way forward
22 a few pages, you will see on page 16 the payment for 411, which is where we left off
23 on the other printout. But he made more payments in April, more payments in May,
24 more payments in June of ’16, and this includes up and through 7/5/2016; is that
25 correct?
158
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. All right. And, obviously, he made those payments; he should get credit for
3 them, correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. All right. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s
6 Exhibit 14 and ask you if you recognize that as one of those child support interest
7 printouts that is identical in every way to the exhibit we offered in May, except it
8 gives him credit for the additional payments made as reflected on the updated
9 printout Respondent’s 3?
10 A. Correct.
16 beyond. It's -- the accurate amount due is that there is no past due child support
159
1 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
3 31,194.42. Can you turn back a few pages from the back, on page 22? Do you find
5 A. Yes.
7 28,754, which shows the updated interest, and then it shows the total due as of that
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And that accurately, again, reflects all payments made, all credits, all interest
11 owed, omnibus, administrative, divorce, all the dates we’ve gone over?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. All right. And we ended up not having trial that date; is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 76
18 and ask you if you recognize that as a copy of an updated printout that now, guess
19 what, shows all child support paid between 7/2016 and yesterday?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. All right. And it shows the payments that he continued to make, if you look
24 A. Correct.
160
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Any objection, Mr. McKinzy?
6 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
7 Q. And at this time, I’m going to offer you Respondent’s Exhibit 77, which is,
8 guess what, an updated total, giving him credit for the payments that he’s made
10 A. 1/9.
11 Q. -- of 2017?
12 A. 1/9.
13 Q. 1/9. And if you turn to the back and we look over at Respondent’s Exhibit 14
14 and what he would have owed as of trial last summer, the principal on 7/14 was
15 28,754, the principal -- accurate principal on Respondent’s 77 has now gone down to
16 $24,002, correct?
17 A. Correct.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And even though the total he owed on 7/14/2016 was 79,421, he’s down to
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Are you asking this Court to enter a judgment for child support and
25 A. Correct.
161
1 Q. Are you asking the Court to enter an interest judgment as of 1/9/2017 in the
2 amount of $52,230.46?
3 A. Correct.
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. I’ve explained to you that the Court, given the nature of the arrearages, can
7 ask for up to 50 percent of Mr. McKinzy’s take-home income, which based upon the
8 pay records we looked at, could be as high as $2,000 per month; is that correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 52 and
12 MS. HESSENFLOW: And I think I have one in your book. If not, I have an
15 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
17 correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. You’re not asking that it be increased; you’re asking that he continue to pay
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And you are asking that the first either dollar or $200 you receive each month
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The rest would go to any attorney’s fees, after that, if the Court chooses to
162
1 award any?
2 A. Yes.
4 A. Yes.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And I’ve shown you the statute and we’ve talked about how that works?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you also asking that in the order -- the court order, that instead of the
10 Child Support Division being trustee, that I be trustee for receipt of those payments?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That way, I can follow the Court’s order, whatever he says, this has to be
13 paid, then this, then this, and each -- as each one of those gets done, just as with the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you understand that statutorily as a child support case and maintenance
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You’re not asking that interest continue to accumulate even though you
21 A. No.
23 A. Yes.
25 Respondent’s 52, you are not asking for any more interest on the arrearages, any
163
1 interest on the attorney’s fees, you just want him to pay down what’s owed; is that
2 correct?
3 A. Correct.
5 Honor.
11 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
12 Q. However, in the event he misses even one payment, you want the interest to
13 pick up and start accumulating at that time on a arrearages owed and on the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So this gives him an incentive for you not to have to go years without
17 payments, because as long as he pays just his 236 a week, however long that takes,
18 there’s no more interest, it’s all going directly to paying off the balance owed?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But if he leaves, you’re asking the Court to let you readdress the maintenance
21 and you’re asking the Court for that interest to continue ticking?
22 A. Yes.
164
1 questions, Mr. McKinzy, regarding the arrearages?
2 MR. MCKINZY: Yes. Based on the fact that the -- all the children were
3 emancipated as of October 30, 2007, the arrearage was not reflective -- well,
4 underlying is that the -- the initial administrative order was null and void from its
9 MS. HESSENFLOW: If he has any questions for my client, I’d ask, please --
13 questions of --
22 MR. MCKINZY: -- Petitioner 145, letter from Governor Matt Blunt’s office
165
1 --
9 Q. In this letter, could you read the second page at the top?
10 A. This here?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. “Michael was no longer eligible for current child support when he turned 18
13 years old on October 16, 2007. FDS stopped assessing child -- current child support
14 October 2007 and will not collect any child support that has accrued after the date.
15 However, only the Court can emancipate a child and terminate a court order. You
16 may want to contact the Jackson County Court administrator’s office Department of
17 Civil Records phone number about the support that continues to accrue through the
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. So this letter reflects that the -- Michael was emancipated initially by the
22 Division of Child Support on his 18th birthday prior to the -- that’s what this letter
23 reflects?
25 Q. He was emancipated --
166
1 A. -- that’s what that reflects.
2 Q. -- administrative --
4 MR. MCKINZY: Well, they stopped collecting child support as the order
5 that they had put in effect based on this letter; is that correct?
17 All right. Before we -- what’s next? We have attorney fee request by the
18 Respondent and --
23 MS. HESSENFLOW: Certainly. I’d like to call Mr. McKinzy to the stand,
24 please.
167
1 oath.
4 Q. Mr. McKinzy, you were present in court in May of 2016, when we addressed
5 to some extent the arrearages, the discovery schedule, and a request for a protective
8 Q. And she filed a motion asking for two things, and then based upon your
9 testimony that day, expanded that and asked for some additional things. And just to
10 summarize, she did not want to provide you her discovery, her tax returns, documents
11 like that because we have evidence that we put in and you agreed that you had been
12 posting pleadings, documents, child support printouts, all kinds of things for years
13 related to this case on your Google Plus or your Facebook or other websites; is that
14 correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And she also asked not only for a protective order with regard to the
17 discovery she was going to provide, but once we got into your testimony and your
18 number of followers and the number of sites these things were being exposed on, we
19 asked the Court to go ahead and seal the entire file; do you recall that?
20 A. I don’t recall sealing the file, no. I recall concerns about her personal
22 Q. Okay. And you saw those -- and if I’m putting the wrong words in your
23 mouth, just let me know, but you saw those as being kind of two different issues,
24 correct?
25 A. Yes.
168
1 Q. Let me -- you are pro se?
2 A. Yes.
5 Q. Everything except the original motion has been prepared by you with your
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And so your concern was not that the case should be sealed, because if you’d
9 hired a lawyer and they filed a bunch of pleadings, yes, it could be sealed, but your
10 concern was, “I created these documents myself, I have a right to my own work
12 that?
14 Q. And you said, “These are not just pleadings in this case, but these are things
15 that I have created, and with respect to my own pleadings and the things that I’ve
16 created in this case, I believe that I have a right to disseminate those. They’re my
17 documents, even though I created them or they’re related to court;” is that correct?
19 Q. Is that -- please specify more if I’ve misstated what your -- what your concern
20 was.
21 A. I stated at the times that I was estranged from my children, and I was
22 attempting to use my resources online to keep them updated regarding the ongoing
24 Q. Right. And I remember the Commissioner said could there maybe perhaps be
25 a better way to do that besides posting the pleadings. And I’m not talking about your
169
1 preference. I’m talking about you said, “Freedom of speech. I created these.” Do
4 Q. All right. With regard to the discovery documents, tax returns, stubs like
5 that, you said that you had no intention of putting those on the Internet, you
6 understood Social Security numbers, stuff like that would be problematic; do you
11 would make efforts to make sure information regarding Social Security numbers and
13 Q. And you said you would do that and you testified that you understood and
15 A. That I’d put forth efforts to make sure that Social Security numbers were
16 redacted, yes.
17 Q. And at the end of the case, the Judge asked me to prepare three orders. The
18 first one was with regard to the wage withholding. The second one was the
19 scheduling order regarding discovery. And he made a verbal order both sealing the
20 case and issuing a protective order regarding discovery and asked me to prepare
24 Q. But you recall him stating at that time, “I’m sealing the case. I’m issuing the
25 protective order”?
170
1 A. No, that you will prepare one for him to write, is what my understanding was.
3 MS. HESSENFLOW: And I’m going to ask the Court to, again, with regard
4 to the protective order, be aware of Respondent’s Exhibit 28. That was the Google
5 Plus profile showing all of the followers and showing several of the documents from
6 the Court that had already been posted as of February of 2006, and I’d ask the Court
9 May 2016, which were excerpts from Petitioner’s Google site, showing documents
10 from this and prior cases, including Ms. Gaston’s original response to the request for
11 admissions --
14 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
15 Q. Mr. McKinzy, have you continued to post not only your pleadings, but her
16 pleadings, exhibits you received during the hearing on 5/19, and in fact orders of the
17 Court, emails with the court staff about scheduling? You’ve posted pretty much
18 everything?
19 A. I’ve posted information that was not -- did not contain personal information
21 Q. Did you put her entire tax return, including the Social Security numbers and
24 Q. In their entirety?
171
1 Q. Did you put all of the information and the answers to the admissions about
5 Q. The admissions --
6 A. -- for emancipations.
7 Q. -- in full?
8 A. I believe so.
10 A. I believe so.
14 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
18 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
20 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let me hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 64 and ask
172
1 you if you recognize that as a copy from your Google site of that 2015 W-2, her
2 tuition and student loan documentation, her income tax summary, her W-2 wage
4 A. Posted where?
6 A. It’s her case file. Only thing -- some -- I posted documents -- pleadings, yes.
7 Response --
11 A. Okay.
13 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
14 Q. Have you posted 72 additional documents since we were here in May that are
15 exhibits you got from court, discovery responses you received, or the additional
17 A. I believe so.
19 A. I believe so.
21 A. Yes.
25 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
173
1 Q. And you continued to do that after that hearing, after you promised not to put
3 A. I --
6 would attempt to not disclose information that was personal, that I would attempt to
8 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 66.
9 This is a site I wasn’t aware about back in May. Can you tell me what that is?
12 A. They have automated links that people -- once you have, they can
13 automatically post -- like this (indiscernible) was not created by me. It’s something
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. What is that?
19 Q. And how did our court documents get into this online library?
20 A. Because you have a personal account and you’re able to upload your --
21 Q. I do?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And next to the heading, “Judicial corruption in America,” are those
174
1 copies of some of the admission pleadings that were filed after May? Page 1, June
2 10?
3 A. June 10?
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. And there’s a copy of motions that weren’t even filed until after May,
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
10 A. Okay.
12 A. Yes.
14 A. The control you’re allowed to make private, and I attempted to make sure
15 everything was put private. You’re able to still upload information and make it
16 private.
18 A. No, but it’s not available to the public. You can make it private.
19 Q. I found it.
20 A. Okay. Well --
21 Q. All right. Next page. Response 1D, there’s her tax returns, response to
25 A. Okay. Okay.
175
1 Q. It’s on there.
2 A. Yes.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Her cross-pleadings?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The next page contains my calculations of the interest and support due and
11 A. Yes.
13 A. This site is similar to a Google account. You have an account, you’re able to
14 upload --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. I’m going to offer Respondent’s Exhibit 66, but I’m going to ask
18 you a question. Do you know why I did not do the order in June?
19 A. You said that you would, because the Court indicated that you would be
23 Q. I wouldn’t think so. Did you know that on June 10, 2017, they published the
24 new orders that were to take effect January -- I’m sorry, August 28, 2016 and January
25 1, 2017? The new statutes and court rules came out just a few days after we were in
176
1 court.
5 Q. Did you know that effective January 1, 2017, all administrative child support,
6 not just paternity, but dissolution cases, all pleadings, all documents filed, all
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you know that it’s a class A misdemeanor to disclose that information?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you know that if, on this particular site, you have seven people that
14 Q. Did you know that can be times the 70 documents you put on and one count
16 A. No.
17 Q. I didn’t believe that you knew that, either. Did you know that there was also
18 a new statute with regard to confidential records and record keeping that allows only
19 the Court, prosecutors, attorneys of record, parties, the Family Support Division, and
20 any other party with a legitimate judicial interest to view any documents in domestic
22 A. No.
23 Q. Based on the fact that the law was changed significantly and you had said you
24 were not going to post these documents, I didn’t do the order. I don’t think you did
25 know about this. If we ask the Judge to enter an order -- and it’ll probably take me
177
1 30 days to do it, so we maybe set a review hearing in 60 days. I do the order giving
2 you 30 days, giving you the benefit of the doubt, to pull all this stuff down from
4 A. Yes, I will.
6 makes his determination on all the pretrial motions, and enters a protective order that
7 says it’s sealed under all these statutes, I do an order saying you have to take it down
8 within 30 days and he sets a review date in about 60 days, you will comply?
9 A. Yes, I will.
10 Q. All right.
13 A. Well, like I said, initially, my objective was to obtain -- I’m estranged from
14 my children, and I was wanting to make them aware of information that’s being
17 order, Your Honor. I’m going to ask the Court to order me to make whatever orders
18 you think are appropriate in an interim capacity, and rather than entering a final
19 judgment, to set this for a review hearing in 60 days. That gives me time to enter a
20 judgment. That will give him a full 30 days. When we come back, if he has
21 removed all of this information, that matter will be resolved. If not, there will be
22 further litigation, which is why I’m not asking that you enter a formal judgment at
23 that time.
178
1 MS. HESSENFLOW: Yes, if I hadn’t, I -- yes, sir. Thank you.
16 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, I could call my client to tell you how she
22 May. Are you opposed to the entry of a protective order under the current
179
1 suggestion. I think I want a review in 60 days. I’ll give you a court date. And if it’s
2 pulled down to your -- everyone’s satisfaction, then we can eliminate the court date.
3 But until then, we’ll keep it on the docket and as a separate issue -- a separate matter
4 to be dealt with as I go through the rest of this and make my determination on the
5 other issues. So if you would, cite the statute and the protective order and the history
6 as you just did on examination and submit that for my signature at your earliest
7 convenience, and we’ll reset the matter in 60 days. Let me get my schedule up.
8 Actually, I’ll look at my schedule in my chambers as we take a break, and I’ll come
14 never dealt with that, and I actually sent some feelers out and found out also there
15 was a case pending involving another attorney that has subsequently been decided by
16 the Western District on September 16, 2016. So with the acknowledgment that he
17 wasn’t going to put this stuff on and I knew these new things were coming and there
18 was a case out there that directly dealt with First Amendment, and it didn’t go that
19 way, so --
21 against anyone for not preparing the orders. I’m going to take a break, a brief one.
180
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Mr. McKinzy, anything beyond argument
2 regarding fees?
7 o0o
9 Go ahead, Mary.
14 --
17 MS. HESSENFLOW: I have one further request with regard to the protective
18 order. Would the Court please clarify on the record in the presence of Mr. McKinzy
19 and the Respondent, of course, a verbal protective order that none of the 40 exhibits I
20 just gave him are to go on the Internet when we leave, nothing else is to go on the
21 Internet, just so that we could clarify that? I know a written order will follow, but I
22 don’t want there to be any question that that is the Court’s position, because he’s got
23 copies of all my exhibits, and we’re getting ready to get my contract and my bill out.
25 my order to the parties is that you obey the law. The law is neither one of you post
181
1 anything on a social media site that discloses anything of the nature we’re dealing
2 with here. I think it should be clear to all at this point that it’s a violation of the law,
4 of what I say. So I would think and I’d hope that you all would agree that you’re
5 going to obey the law and that we won’t have this posting of these private documents
6 that are now considered private and confidential pursuant to state law.
13 MS. HESSENFLOW: I’ll ask Mr. McKinzy to return to the -- the stand,
18 Q. Mr. McKinzy, you had an attorney, Michaela Shelton, help you early on in
19 this case. She filed your pleadings in September, and she continued to represent you
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. And what hourly rate did you agree to pay her for representation in a case of
23 this nature?
25 Q. Okay.
182
1 A. No, it was a flat fee of $1,500, but she said beyond that -- I paid her a total of
2 $3,000, and then she wanted to go to an hourly rate, which I couldn’t afford. She
5 your pleadings were filed, you paid 1,500, and then it was 3,000 to do some
6 additional work, and then after that, it was going to be 5,000 and an hourly, and
9 Q. And she represented you between September, and in November she filed her
11 A. I believe so.
23 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
24 Q. And she prepared your service packet, the corresponding documents, like the
25 filing information sheet that went with your motion to modify and declaratory
183
1 judgment, and those were the only pleadings that were filed, correct?
2 A. I believe so.
3 Q. I’m assuming and I don’t want you to tell me the nature of them or anything
4 that was said, but you had phone calls, you came to meet with her, you had
5 documents that you went over with her, so there was more time spent other than
7 A. No, she took one -- we had one meeting and she got everything filed. We
8 didn’t have any follow-up, and it was just she said going to court is what she needed
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. -- another 5,000?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. There have been many, many, many pleadings filed in this case, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And with the exception of that 4,500 over those few months, you’ve done the
21 Q. You’ve filed all your motions, copied the exhibits, went through and got all
22 of the documents to support your motions. Some of them were your summary
25 Q. We did extensive discovery in this case. I asked for income and expense,
184
1 asset and debt, and two things in a production of documents. There were a lot of
3 A. Yes.
5 A. Yes.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Once you became pro se, between that date and today, if you had to just
11 estimate how much time you spent on the Internet and you spent working on
12 pleadings and you spent working on exhibits, the things that you have done, that’s a
15 Q. Give me an estimate.
19 Q. A lot?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In particular, there was a lot going on in April of 2016, May of 2016, June of
22 2016?
185
1 A. I didn’t foresee the need for work. I thought it was a simple matter of
4 A. After the emancipation didn’t go forth and the continuance was granted, yes.
5 Q. All right. I’m going to withdraw the question. Do you have a company
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In your contract online on that website, do you charge people $200 per hour
12 Q. Do you have a contract on your website for Pro Se USA that specifies that
14 A. I believe so.
16 USA, and other websites, that you have an expertise in family law?
18 Q. Okay. We’ll get to that in a minute. You testified that you have never
20 litigation?
21 A. I haven’t provided -- been paid for. I’ve helped my like cousin when she
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, I’d ask that the Petitioner be read his
186
1 Miranda rights before I continue with my next round of questioning.
3 MS. HESSENFLOW: Okay. I’ll skip that. It was really good, though.
4 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
5 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 62 and
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the first page, it says who you are and that you have 84 followers and
9 284,000 view. It’s a little bit different than the other Google Plus page.
10 A. I don’t know.
21 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
22 Q. All right. Can you turn over a few pages, then? Actually, I’m sorry, let me
23 do this here. I asked you earlier if you had any other businesses or companies that
24 you obtained revenues from, and you said you did but that they didn’t produce
187
1 A. That is correct.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then on the last three pages of that exhibit, is that your LinkedIn page?
10 Q. And on the bottom of the first page of your LinkedIn, again, founder and
11 president of EVoteTechnology?
12 A. Yes.
15 International, Pro Se USA, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.
18 Q. Great. And so these are just concept things? They’re not things that are up
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. You filed corporate tax returns in the state of Kansas for the past few years
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you have a patent filed under one of those businesses from 2013?
188
1 Q. At the bottom of the last page of that exhibit, under skills, is the first one that
4 case.
5 Q. Okay. Have you ever handled or been involved in any family law cases other
8 Q. So all your expertise in family law has come from filing motions and
10 A. No. Well, I’ve -- I’ve done -- I haven’t been in court on family law. That’s -
17 MS. HESSENFLOW: Maybe nowhere. I’ll move on. You’re free to wave
21 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
22 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 6
23 and ask you if you recognize that as a copy of your statement of assets and debts.
189
1 A. I don’t own any real estate.
3 A. Yes.
5 A. Yes.
7 this one?
20 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
21 Q. And you signed this under oath as a representation of the assets and debts that
24 Q. Okay.
190
1 Q. All right. I’ve got six different things here that are left off of your
2 modification assets and debts. So that the Judge doesn’t go crazy, I’m going to ask
4 A. 4.
6 A. 2.
7 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 43
8 and ask if you recognize that as a copy of the property account summary for some of
10 A. No.
12 A. No, that was a residence of my second ex-wife. Me and her resided there
13 approximately less than a year. And 3743 Flora, that’s always been my parents’
14 address.
17 Q. So even though they’re both listed under your name as far as ownership,
22 MS. HESSENFLOW: All right. I’m going to offer Respondent’s Exhibit 43.
191
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Any objection to me receiving it as an
9 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
10 Q. Okay. Whether or not you own other things, you made a big deal about her
11 having extra money at the end of the month to help the kids and send to her mom,
12 and you thought that she should have a reduction in her maintenance if she’s got
15 Q. And you testified that you can’t afford to continue to give her maintenance or
16 to have child support continued to take out of your check based upon all of the
18 A. That is correct and a desire to once again own a residence for me and my
19 wife.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Purchase a residence.
22 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 11 and
192
1 MS. HESSENFLOW: Offer Respondent’s Exhibit 11.
7 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
11 in your name?
12 A. No, I sent the check and I didn’t have the funds, and I was planning on -- I
13 put in a -- a future purchase and they processed the -- for the total amount and it came
15 Q. Before that, did one of your corporations that doesn’t earn any money send
18 Q. All right. So the Smithsonian letter -- is sending you tax and thank you
20 A. No, I --
21 Q. Okay.
23 submit.
24 MS. HESSENFLOW: Okay. Other than considering -- Your Honor, I’d ask
25 the Court to also consider the evidence of the Respondent’s income, all of the income
193
1 information that was offered earlier with regard to ability to pay.
2 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
3 Q. And at this time, Mr. McKinzy, I’m going to turn towards the merits of your
4 case. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 70.
5 MS. HESSENFLOW: And I believe I provided the Court with a copy of this
6 earlier and then it didn’t make it into evidence. If you do not have one in your
7 notebook, please let me know, Your Honor. And I’m going to go ahead and offer
11 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
12 Q. Mr. McKinzy, halfway down, on 10/12/2007, is there that writ you filed
13 against Judge Campbell that we talked about earlier that you didn’t remember? Writ
14 of prohibition?
16 Q. Were two of the issues whether there was a void child support judgment
17 administrative from the beginning, and another issue was retroactive emancipation?
18 A. No, it was him refusing to dismiss the child -- the divorce decree, because
19 there was I thought at the time no valid order in place. That was the writ, that he
21 Q. He refused to set aside the thing as void and dismiss your judgment?
23 filing.
24 Q. Okay. On the next page, does that show the appeal to the Supreme Court in
25 2008 after the judgment we looked at earlier, where the Judge denied your motions
194
1 and then the Western District then denied, you then filed the same issues with the
2 Supreme Court not only on 2/21/2008, but also on 2/29/2008, because you have filed
3 not one, but two motions for judicial review, one to set aside the original order and a
6 Q. And then you filed another writ against Patrick Campbell on 10/16/2007,
8 the three children, and entered that new order for your one son that then went in
9 effect and consolidated two months later? You took him up on a writ again, correct?
11 Q. So of these five just -- not Circuit Court -- just Appellate Court cases, all five
12 of them involve the same issues that we are here for again today?
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I believe so, some of the same issues, regarding void judgments or void
16 orders.
17 Q. And you have not been successful in any of your appellate motions to
19 A. Well --
21 A. -- I was -- the letters I received, stating that the children were administrative -
22 -
23 Q. Were you successful in front of the Western District or any of the Supreme
25 A. No.
195
1 Q. In the 02MC201872, the administrative case that was consolidated and closed
2 in 2007, have you continued to file motions and other things in that case as recent as
3 6/11/2015?
5 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 71 and
6 ask you if you recognize that as a copy of the docket entries for the original 02MC
7 administrative case.
8 A. This is not something I filed. It’s something that the Court files as they
11 A. Yes, it was the thing that they sent back. That’s when I sent in the order, and
14 of the Court. The Court can review to see what the topics were if --
19 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
20 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 72
21 that I think I already offered into evidence and ask you if you recognize that as a
22 copy of the docket entries from the -- not the ’01 divorce, not the ’02, not the ’03, not
23 this one, just the original divorce case. Take a look. Did you file six motions
24 subsequent to the divorce judgment, asking to set aside things as void, set aside the
25 administrative, set aside the divorce, and/or retroactively emancipate your kids?
196
1 A. I did file motions to that nature, yes.
3 A. It was motions that you filed that I became a party to that I responded. It was
4 not -- it was -- the pleadings that were filed -- it was a response to the pleadings that
7 Q. Did you respond to pleadings asking the Court to find administrative and
9 A. I believe so.
11 A. I believe so.
15 A. Okay. Yes, I did. I’m getting confused with the sub -- yes.
16 Q. Do you think it is fair that she has had to pay an attorney to defend what is in
17 essence the 19th collateral attack on the underlying administrative judgment -- when
18 you count the motions filed in the various cases and the appeals, the 19th? Don’t you
19 think at some point you should be responsible for the fees that she has to incur to
21 A. No, I don’t believe I’m responsible because the truth has yet to be established
22 that the kids were emancipated on their 18th birthday, there’s no arrearage here.
24 A. I feel with the facts, I believe, yeah, because the truth has not been
197
1 Q. Are you going to file something else after this case?
3 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 10 and
4 ask you if you recognize that as a copy of one of the contempt cases filed against you
5 by the State of Missouri when they took over and were representing Ms. Gaston for
13 MS. HESSENFLOW: I’ll ask the Court to take judicial record of the official
14 court records in the ’03 subcase with regard to the issues presented and dispensed
15 (indiscernible).
16 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
17 Q. In the event you were served with this contempt petition on February 14,
18 2011, what action did you take two months later to make sure that the state of
19 Missouri was never going to represent her for free again anymore? What did you do?
21 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 19 and
22 ask you if you recognize that as a copy of the petition you filed in federal court,
23 personally suing the attorney who filed the contempt, the entire Missouri Division of
25 Mike Dyer, the Director of Child Support Enforcement, Aaron Seamands, Richard
198
1 Dorr, Charles Bender, Fernando Gaitan, and the entire Jackson County Circuit Court.
5 A. I know that it was not in response to that, because I had not been made aware
6 of it until --
11 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
16 Q. But the Division of Child Support Enforcement had to conflict off your case
19 Q. You’re not aware of the fact that she’s going to have to pay an attorney to
22 Q. You didn’t send a letter and post on the Internet that you finally had Child
24 A. Not that I can recall. If you can provide the letter. Not that I can recall. I
25 haven’t --
199
1 Q. Posting, Google Plus.
2 A. What time?
4 A. No.
7 Q. You know what? I’ll withdraw the question. Mr. McKinzy, you have a habit
8 not only of filing repetitive litigation here that she is having to pay for, but this is
10 A. No.
11 Q. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 21 and
12 ask you if you recognize it as a printout of the 167 cases you have filed in various
13 federal, state, local, Western District, state appellate, federal circuit appellate, state
14 supreme, and United States Supreme Court cases over the past 12 years.
16 Q. Do you see anything on there that you don’t recognize or that you didn’t file?
21 hand.
200
1 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
2 Q. Have you ever been successful in court, not by settlement, but in court on a
5 Q. But you filed the cases against the same defendants over and over, just as
8 Q. But you’ve filed cases against the same people over and over?
9 A. Yes.
13 Q. There is no confidentiality. It’s just a yes or no. I’m not asking the amount.
14 A. Yes.
18 Q. What about the Missouri settlement about the gas that was turned off?
20 Q. Okay. So I know about that one, so you didn’t breach confidentiality. How
21 much do you have to pay in attorney’s fees on these cases that you file over and over
24 Q. We touched on this a little bit, but several courts, including three entire
25 federal circuits, have become so fed up with you filing things and causing
201
1 corporations and attorneys to spend thousands of hours and thousands of dollars
2 dealing with you, that they have entered some unusual orders with regard to you
3 specifically, correct?
5 Q. Well, let’s take a look. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as
6 Respondent’s Exhibit 51 and ask you if you recognize that as a 2010 decision in the
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. HESSENFLOW: All right. I’m going to offer Respondent’s Exhibit 51.
17 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
19 entering summary judgment. You have been -- you, Mr. McKinzy, have been
20 previously warned that similar lawsuits filed against them are meritless.” This Court
21 orders you to reimburse a railroad for their attorney’s fees, and they enjoin you from
22 filing any other suits against this plaintiff, correct? They ordered you to pay the fees
23 of a big corporation and told you, you couldn’t sue them anymore?
202
1 A. Where are you reading from?
6 Q. All right. Can you come down now -- not only are they ordering you to pay
7 the fees and telling you, you couldn’t sue them. Can you turn now to page 8,
8 paragraph B, where they’re asking for more attorney’s fees, starting in the middle?
9 “Since 2007, McKinzy has filed 38 other lawsuits and 11 appeals, 3 and 1 appeal
10 against Norphone alone -- Norfolk. None have ever been found to have any merit.
11 He’s been warned. The 10th Circuit has warned him. This Court enjoins him from
12 filing any further pro se proceedings in the future.” You can’t even file, can you?
16 Q. All right. Let’s just go to one more circuit. Do you want to go to the 10th or
17 the 11th?
19 Q. All right. 10th is on top. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as
20 Respondent’s Exhibit 20 and ask you if you recognize that as a 2010 opinion from
22 A. It appears to be.
203
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: 20 is received.
4 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
5 Q. In this case, they said they dismiss the appeal and state that not only are they
6 considering rejected your arguments on two other occasions just in the last six
7 months, it is a frivolous appeal, and you have now been prohibited by the 10th
8 Circuit as well from filing any pleadings unless you first file them with the Presiding
9 Judge along with certain other additional documentation, and a Presiding Judge has
10 to give you permission before a clerk can file anything else on your behalf in the 10th
11 Circuit?
13 Q. You were ordered to pay attorney’s fees as sanctions there as well, right?
14 A. I believe so.
15 Q. Are there three entire federal circuits stretching from Idaho to Pennsylvania
16 where you cannot walk into court and file anything else?
18 Q. But the circuits stretch from there, 10th Circuit, 8th Circuit. Are there three
20 A. There’s -- no, it’s not three -- they won’t let me file without -- let me file
22 Q. Are there three circuits that won’t let you file any more pro se pleadings?
24 Q. Do you know that more men have stood on the surface of the moon than have
25 been prohibited by three entire federal circuits from filing -- or given them filing
204
1 restrictions?
5 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
7 A. Are those exhibits, or am I able to maintain -- are those admitted, or are those
8 --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. I’ve got copies for you. I’ll give them to you. I’m going to hand
12 you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 9. This was already offered into
13 evidence on 5/19. And I’d like -- this is -- when we talked about it before, when you
14 file all these pro se cases, you also file an application to proceed in forma pauperis so
15 you don’t have to pay court costs, filing fees, service fees, correct?
17 Q. And you have to do an affidavit as to your financial status and sign that under
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I’d like you to turn to the second to last page. In 42 such affidavits, did
21 you list your child support and spousal support as a substantial debt that prohibits you
24 yes.
25 Q. So when you come in and say you don’t owe any of the support in this case,
205
1 when it is convenient for you to proceed in forma pauperis, such as on 8/30/2010,
2 you all of a sudden admit that you have $39,800 in child support with a monthly
3 payment of 599 due and $28,400 in past due maintenance with a monthly payment of
4 $200?
5 A. It lists -- you’re to list all debts or balance that’s -- balance that’s on my credit
6 report, yes.
7 Q. Okay. On the second page, did you sign under oath and say the debts and
8 other information listed on here are true and correct to your best knowledge?
9 A. Yes.
13 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
15 merits presented in the case today, and the fact that this is a pattern with you, you
16 also continue to post things, personal things about you not being -- receiving justice,
17 the courts being unfair to you, things about Ms. Gaston, and you publish these
18 regularly, correct?
20 Q. Okay. I’m going to hand you what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit
21 65 and ask you if you recognize this as a copy of a letter you sent to President Obama
22 on February 3, 2016.
206
1 MR. MCKINZY: No objection.
5 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. While these issues about retroactive emancipation and void orders were
9 pending and she was hiring me to defend her in this case. This was February of
10 2016, correct?
12 Q. Does the letter state that your kids should have been retroactively
13 emancipated and it shows you owe money that you don’t owe and that we took
14 money from your pension that you never got credit for, the same things that you’ve
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Does it also contain a picture of a pig, with the Circuit Court of Jackson
18 County, this little piggy and piggybank, and it’s got a little drawing there you sent to
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. I don’t believe I sent this to the President. I think you downloaded it from the
24 Q. All right. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s
25 Exhibit 45 and ask you if that is a response from President Obama that he sent to the
207
1 Child Support Division to address these issues with you so that you would
3 A. No, I don’t believe it’s from the President. I think it’s from the Governor’s
5 Q. Didn’t you receive -- oh, you sent a letter to the Governor as well?
6 A. Yes.
15 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
16 Q. On the second page of that document, again, while this case is pending and
17 everything that has occurred in March, April, May, June, July forward, all of this
18 time, all of this effort could have been stopped, did they send you a letter letting you
19 know that your three older children were emancipated in December of 2007, that the
20 order for your younger child continued until he was 21, and that he’s emancipated
21 too?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that came via the Governor’s office, you’re right, through to the Family
24 Support Division Director to you in February, when, again, this could have been
208
1 A. No, because it reflects -- it states that the children were emancipated as of
2 December 2007, and I have alleged and it’s maintained that my daughter was
3 emancipated in 2004 and the twins emancipated in 2006 and Michael is emancipated
5 Q. Okay.
7 Q. The Court follows the law and the Court follows the facts. The Court follow
8 -- doesn’t -- doesn’t follow what you believe? You understand we’re asking for
9 attorney’s fees because you continue to file things that are contrary to the law and
10 contrary to the facts in this case? Do you understand that’s why we’re asking for
11 fees? It’s not because we don’t believe you or we want to give you grief. It’s
12 because you continue to do this despite judge after judge after court after supreme
13 court after Western District telling you that this is the law, these are the facts, you’re
15 A. No, that’s not why I understand you’re asking for fees, but --
16 Q. Why do you think we’re -- she’s asking you to pay her fees?
17 A. Because of the facts have not been accepted as they are, the truth has not been
18 established, and because she was able to get an attorney to represent her, and -- and
19 the truth has yet to be established. Because of that, she has to incur costs that she
21 Q. Let’s assume that I charged her 250 an hour and that I also spent between 20
22 and 40 hours a week in April, May, and June, a lot less July -- or a whole bunch
23 getting ready in July, not much in August, not much in September, nothing in
24 October and November, and another 30 hours in the last month updating and bringing
25 everything done. At 250 an hour, does she stand any chance of being able to pay me
209
1 on her own?
2 A. I wouldn’t know.
3 Q. So if I have more than 200 hours in this case, which would be a low estimate,
4 based on the amount of time that you’ve spent, do you understand that would be
5 $50,000?
7 Q. And you think that’s okay for her to be stuck with that bill in this case?
8 A. I believe it’s not okay for me to be stuck with a debt that I do not owe.
11 point of clarification. Do you -- do you realize that if you have four children and,
12 say, the child support order is 1,165 a month, which it was, right?
18 place?
21 You can have a seat. You have to modify it in order for the amount to change.
22 MR. MCKINZY: And I was told that -- that they would be emancipated, that
23 child support would be -- based on operation of law, that the amount of child support
24 per child would no longer be able to be collected and that going forward --
210
1 All right. Ms. -- Ms. Hessenflow, further evidence regarding the fees?
4 And -- and I ask that you continue to remember you’re under oath.
8 Q. I’m going to hand you now what’s been marked as Respondent’s Exhibit 50.
10 notebook.
11 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
16 Q. Did I explain to you that that was significantly below my normal rate, but that
17 I was willing to reduce my rate such that I could make some effort to represent you?
18 A. Yes, ma’am.
19 Q. Even given that, did I tell you that, based upon having reviewed the history,
20 the multiple pleadings, been involved to some extent before, that I knew what I was
21 getting into?
22 A. Yes.
24 A. A lot of legal.
211
1 something going on at all times, correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Did I tell you I could not do it for free, you had to pay something up front?
4 A. Yes.
6 A. 3,500.
8 A. 3,500.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And at $250 per hour, how long do you think that lasted?
12 A. Not long.
13 Q. Have you and I spent dozens of hours and multiple meetings in my office
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You have spent more than 50 hours in my office at various times preparing
18 A. Yes.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Are you going to ask the Court to enter an order for attorney’s fees in favor of
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Are you asking that that award of attorney’s fees be in the nature of a child
212
1 A. Yes.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That would mean that it would accrue interest at the rate of 1 percent per
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that would mean that if he doesn’t pay his 238 per month, that interest
10 A. Yes.
13 contract?
18 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
19 Q. Do you have the financial means to pay me for the additional fees that have
20 been accumulated?
21 A. No.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you have anything other than your take-home pay and the money that
213
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you believe that the merits of Mr. McKinzy’s case, the repetitive filings in
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you believe that that -- his superior financial ability to continue to pay
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you believe that his efforts in continuing to file other cases show that he
9 has no regard for anyone other than himself in filing what he wants to and that the
11 A. True.
12 Q. Do you believe that he has been told by Judges, most recently by the
13 Governor, that he has no case with regard to retroactive emancipation and void
14 judgments?
15 A. True.
17 correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you have to hire an attorney or risk his summary judgment in the motion
20 to deem admitted, his motion for default, and the other pleadings that would have
21 taken away $70,000 in support and interest owed to you? You had to hire an attorney
22 or those --
23 A. Yes.
25 A. Yes.
214
1 Q. You had no choice?
2 A. No choice.
3 Q. Are you asking the Court to enter an award in your favor in an amount that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Are you also asking the Court, at the conclusion of this hearing, not to give us
7 an amount, but to let us know whether or not the Court intends to enter a judgment
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If the Court does not intend to enter a judgment, we will not submit your bill,
11 correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If the Court does intend to enter a judgment, we are going to ask the Court to
14 keep the matter under advisement and to allow us to submit the bill in 60 days, when
15 we come back with regard to the removing everything from the computer; is that
16 correct?
17 A. Correct.
19 A. Yes.
21 A. Yes.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And we have no idea whether all that stuff is going to be off the Internet or
25 what’s going to be involved there, so we don’t know ultimately what the final
215
1 amount of appeal -- of fees are, correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And the other problem is this. The contract just says who we are, what we
5 A. Correct.
7 A. Correct.
9 personal information that is relevant to the case and is necessary for the Court to
10 evaluate?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Without a written order, are you uncomfortable having me submit your bill,
13 knowing that Mr. McKinzy will leave with a copy of it today before a written
15 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
16 Q. Therefore, are you asking the Court, either at the end of today or once it takes
17 it under advisement, to let us know whether it intends to enter fees? If not, we won’t
18 ever submit the bill. If yes and the Court wants to see it, ask that we submit it in 60
19 days, once we know whether or not he’s complied with removing the things from the
20 Internet and once there is a written and enforceable protective order in effect?
21 A. Correct.
25 Q. Prior to the filing of the -- this case in court, there was -- the youngest -- our
216
1 youngest son was still unemancipated; is that correct? He had not been emancipated
6 Q. So the result of filing this case resulted in getting first him emancipated, as he
7 had not been previously emancipated, and also a recalculation of child support that
10 Q. The result of filing this case, you ultimately filed an affidavit emancipating
11 our youngest son? Prior to the filing, he was yet to be emancipated; is that correct?
12 A. Yeah, because I had talked to you prior to all this going on and I let -- I had
13 let you know that I would do that. You know, I had no recollection that they -- he
14 had not been emancipated. So before you brought all this up, I had already told you I
15 would do it, just let me know. But then you came up with all this. So as -- as of that
17 Q. And from his emancipation, a recalculation resulting from the filing of this
20 Q. That they recalculated the -- what was deemed owed child support based on
21 the new emancipation that you filed based on -- the $10,722 was due from you
22 coming to court and filing the emancipation; is that correct? You filed an
23 emancipation and then you filed the credit due to the emancipation; is that correct?
217
1 Mr. McKinzy, that there was merit to your claim because you -- you were entitled to
2 a credit that you hadn’t yet received when you filed your motion; is that right?
4 BY MR. MCKINZY:
5 Q. And there was also additional credits that were done -- there were also
6 additional credits that were done after the litigation that was not for -- that was
7 resulted from the litigation; isn’t that right? Your counsel made you aware of
8 additional credits that I was entitled to in reception of income tax that had not been
11 Q. It was --
12 A. You made it aware that you thought he was not -- that he was still being --
13 they was still taking out money. And I told you I would go down and see about it
14 and have it taken care of, and I did. But for some reason, they did not do it, so they
15 sent -- I guess sent it back and -- but other than that, I -- I couldn’t really tell you.
16 I’m not --
18 that have not been prior to this litigation would have remained uncredited had it not
19 been that the litigation was brought forward in your process of litigating; is that
20 correct? The $4,000 that -- of income tax that had not been previously credited was a
25 total amount due because of the unemancipating -- when -- when the emancipation
218
1 was -- should have been done that was cleared up from this litigation; isn’t that
2 correct?
4 Q. From this litigation, you were able to resolve credits that would have been not
5 credited and cases would have not been resolved had this case not been filed; isn’t
6 that correct?
7 A. Not really, because Ms. Katz (phonetic spelling) told you at our meeting that,
8 as of what we had discussed, it could have been taken care of, but you didn’t have
9 that understanding, so you went that way in order to do what you thought was best
10 for you.
11 Q. So I’m just mentioning the credit that you gave was due from this filing and
12 the --
14 Q. Okay. Would you believe that the merits of this case that brought forth the
15 unpaid or uncredited was meritous (sic), that it was -- that it was worth filing and
16 bringing forth? In your opinion, do you believe that it was useful litigation to bring
18 A. I believe that a lot of things could have been done a lot better on your -- on
19 your side. You know, you could have sat down and -- and we could have litigated
20 this -- like Ms. Katz said, could have went in closed doors and did this and found out
21 all this. I mean, there could have been a better way, but you chose to take it this way.
22 But what I mean, though, everything that you had been doing behind my back, I
23 didn’t know how severe this stuff was. You know, my -- I don’t know nothing about
24 the law. My thing of it is I just sit back and -- and let you did what you wanted to do.
25 And the thing of it was, it might not have been the right thing, but I wasn’t bothering
219
1 you, because the thing of it was, the children were doing their thing. They --
6 Mr. McKinzy?
7 BY MR. MCKINZY:
9 MS. HESSENFLOW: Asked and answered four times if it’s going to relate
10 to whether or not he received a credit as part of her litigation that he would not
17 BY MR. MCKINZY:
18 Q. Other than that, the -- prior to this litigation that now shows the 14,000 that’s
19 being credited, had that been previously -- prior to the litigation, had that been
22 Q. So that was -- an additional result of this litigation was the proper crediting of
23 the 401(k) to back pass child support that had not been previously been credited that
220
1 MR. MCKINZY: That’s just the merit of -- of what resulted.
5 MR. MCKINZY: So --
10 BY MR. MCKINZY:
11 Q. So, approximately, in total, there was approximately $25,000 that was found
12 from this other litigation coming from previous credit or the maintenance from the
13 401(k), the previous from the spouse support from the 401(k), the previous tax
14 interception and was not credited and the emancipation of the minor child and the
15 credit, all that resulted from this litigation; isn’t that correct?
16 A. I just don’t know how to address that fully. All I know is that when this stuff
18 Q. All right.
20 Q. And I’m -- I’m just not wanting you to agree, but there was the credit that
22 A. Every credit that you needed that belonged to you that was foreseeable that
24 MR. MCKINZY: You’ve got it as of today. But prior to the filing, had every
221
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: We’ve -- we’ve covered this --
15 Q. We filed affidavits of credit in 2007 and ‘8 for the annuity for child support,
16 the annuity for maintenance, and those are present on the court records. Those were
17 not given as part of this case? They’ve been there for almost a decade, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the Court can see the entries for those. They’re found in the ’02 and the
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Now, I’m going to hand you one more time Respondent’s Exhibit 54, which
23 is his affidavit pro se for termination of child support. He filed that on June 5, 2015,
24 correct?
25 A. Correct.
222
1 Q. You responded to his pro se motion, correct?
2 A. Correct.
5 A. Correct.
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. You, however, gave him a $10,000 credit and responded to this affidavit,
9 correct?
10 A. Correct.
14 modification and declaratory judgment? That credit did not emanate from this
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, would you be more than happy to set aside this emancipation and to
18 allow the 2012 administrative to stay and to tack another $10,000 back on if that’s --
21 BY MS. HESSENFLOW:
23 A. No.
24 Q. There is not a single credit that he is receiving other than one for taxes; is that
25 correct?
223
1 A. Right.
3 A. Right.
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Should you have to pay thousands of dollars in attorney’s fees because you
7 found an additional credit that we gave him because he was entitled to it because it
9 A. Right.
13 A. No.
14 Q. The only place you’ll find that credit is on my little printouts of interest and
16 A. Correct.
21 would.
224
1 MR. MCKINZY: I’ll get in here as needed. I can take off a day.
18 MR. MCKINZY: I want to make it to the Court’s attention that some of the -
19 - the potential filings were not directly from me, that other people were able to -- I --
20 I will attempt all filings that I produced. There are other independent postings that I
23 order?
225
1 MR. MCKINZY: If someone has went in and downloaded it and posted it
2 independent of me.
4 MS. HESSENFLOW: I know how to get them off. We can join the sites. It
5 will cost him a whole lot of money to do that, so I suggest he make every effort to do
6 it on his own.
7 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Can you contact those that might have this
9 MR. MCKINZY: Well, it’s not individuals I know. I just know that that’s
10 the -- where I’ve gotten documents in the past is when they view them, you have the
11 ability to download them. And once you download them, you can do as you please.
226
1 COMMISSIONER KIMMINAU: Immediately.
5 15th at 9:00 to make sure that that’s been done. I will write to the two of you as I
6 review the evidence and determine whether or not attorney fees are in play. And if
7 so, you can then bring your bill, send a copy to him or present it at trial and let him
8 look at it so we can further determine what, if any -- how much, if any, fees are going
9 to be added.
10 In the meantime, prior to the 15th, you’re both invited to submit to me your
11 proposed judgment regarding the issues. I know you’re pro se, but I’ve seen a lot of
13 suggested findings and conclusions, then you’re free to do that, and I’ll ask
17 make it a couple days before the 15th? Or I’m fine with doing it on the 15th. And
18 the judgment then will be entered shortly thereafter. So get it to me by that time.
23 email it to the --
227
1 MR. MCKINZY: Okay.
3 have the matter under advisement pending our review on the 15th.
8 before we do, let’s -- let’s make sure I’ve got all the right exhibits in front of me here,
9 because we’ve -- they’ve been flying around fast and furious. From the Petitioner, I
10 have --
11 MS. HESSENFLOW: Wait just one moment. Let me grab my list that I
22 have 102, which is a Form 14 from years ago. I have 133, an affidavit of credit; 134,
23 another affidavit of credit. The first one was referencing maintenance, the second
24 one child support. I have Exhibit 136, which is a letter addressed to Mr. McKinzy
228
1 Mr. McKinzy from Child Support Specialist. I have 162, which is Mr. McKinzy’s --
2 well, actually, it’s -- it was offered by Mr. McKinzy. It is the asset and debt
3 statement of the Respondent, Ms. Gaston. I have 163, which is the modification
4 income and expense statement of Ms. Gaston. I have 164, which are the UMB Bank
5 accounts, and 165, which are additional UMB Bank accounts. And I have 166,
12 No. 1, which is the judgment of dissolution, which was entered back in May of 2016.
15 a modification statement of assets and debts of Mr. McKinzy. I have No. 9, which is
16 Mr. McKinzy’s application and affidavit of financial status, number -- which was
17 also offered back in May of 2016. I have No. 11, which is recent cash donations to
18 Smithsonian Institution, which Mr. McKinzy denies making. I have No. 13, which
19 was -- 13, 15, 17, and 18, all of which were offered back in May of 2016; 13 being
20 the affidavit of credit by custodial parent in the amount of 10,722; 15 being the
21 payment detailed history report outlining past due maintenance and child support
22 through April of 2016; No. 17, which is the affidavit of credit for maintenance of
23 3,208; and No. 18, the affidavit administrative credit for the -- well, what is it?
24 That’s the child support affidavit of credit based on the -- the QDRO division of
25 14,421. No. 19, order of 6/1/10, dismissing Mr. McKinzy’s federal -- Kansas federal
229
1 case against the Family Support Division; No. 20, documents regarding McKinzy v.
3 federal court over the ten-year period; 22 and 23 and 25 were received in May 2016.
4 22 is the proposed modification decision and order nunc pro tunc dated 12/12/07. 23
6 was the obligor’s payment history showing all support paid and credited as of
7 4/13/16. 26 was received in May 2016, delinquent maintenance, child support, and
8 interest calculation through April 13, 2016. 27, letter from Director of Family
9 Support Office of Governor Matt Blunt, dated March 6, 2008. 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33
10 were all admitted in May 2016. 28, excerpts from Petitioner’s Google Plus site. 29,
12 report for administrative case 02MC201872. 31 was certification the circuit court
13 filed 7/10/01. 32, administrative paternity and child support order. 33, billing
14 statement and arrearage notice dated 11/3/06. 36, admitted in May of 2016, order of
15 consolidation. 40, motion for summary judgment regarding void administrative child
16 support, filed by Mr. McKinzy today, actually. 42, Petitioner’s year-to-date pay
17 records for 2016 through June 11. 43, Jackson County property ownership account
19 office, and Family Support Division. 50, contract for legal services between
21 Petitioner from filing additional repetitive litigation, et cetera. 53, Petitioner’s 2015
23 Petitioner’s affidavit for termination of child support dated 6/5/15. 58, a duplicate
230
1 2016 letter sent to President Obama. 72, docket entries from 02FC200809. 75, email
5 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, I have 46, 47, 48, 49. Those were the
6 four modification income and expense statements. The one showed the summer, the
7 one showed the holiday, the one showed the school year, one was an average. I
12 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, the only other one I had was --
14 income and expense statement, as is 47, 48, and 49, for various combinations of the
16 MS. HESSENFLOW: Your Honor, I believe it was 52, which was -- let me
17 double check here. That was the wage withholding that’s currently in effect, and I
18 offered it -- that we were asking that that amount continue and not go up. If it’s not
19 in, that’s fine, but I thought I had offered it. I had a little checkmark on it.
22 withholding order with Hillshire Brands at 236.64 per week. Anything further?
231
1 o0o
3
4
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
232
1 STATE OF TEXAS )
)
2 ) ss.
COUNTY OF TARRANT )
3
4
6 true and correct transcription, to the best of my ability, of the sound recorded
11
12
13
/s/ Shawna L. Anderson
14 Shawna L. Anderson, CET
Certified Electronic Transcriber
15 Official Transcription Vendor for
Office of State Courts Administrator
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
233
1 STATE OF MISSOURI )
)
2 ) ss.
COUNTY OF COLE )
3
4
5 I, Lori Knollmeyer, do hereby certify that the foregoing (or attached) is a true
9 In compliance with Supreme Court Rule 81.14(e), I further certify that the
10 electronic copy has been scanned for viruses and that it is virus-free.
11 In compliance with Supreme Court Rule 84.18, I further certify that the cost
13 Transcript:
15 Shipping............................................................................................. $ 5.10
16 Total................................................................................................... $ 824.10
17
18
19 In witness whereof, I hereby sign this date: 12/18/2017.
20
21
22 /s/ Lori A. Knollmeyer
Lori A. Knollmeyer, CCR, CER, CET
23 Transcription Supervisor
Office of State Courts Administrator
24
25
234