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JR What we want to do is phase one get this off the floor do the fixing that we have

to do to make sure that this comes off the floor Phase two straighten this line so

that it
really looks the way we wanted it to look And phase three..

No didnt understand what you meant

JR Well as an example on the Mac we have project files We have our choice its

either project file for this or project file for that it cant be project file for both

We dont have plan for doing both So right now this we cant just this busted

squiggly line on the edge of the free source just breaks the commercial tree We

cant have the two of the cohabiting

LT OK yes agree with you

JR OK so phase one try and look back at anything that we really had to just put into

the free source tree for that busted the commercial

expediency purposes really just

tree and find way to do it

so that the free source tree can continue to live And

want someone to be building this free source tree and the same time as were trying

to get this off the floor Then want to straighten out these lines and make it so that

the two can really cohabitate And then finally now well have nicer free source

tree thats well defined and all we have to do it

migrate these changes Migrate

these changes almost amounts to the deltas or the of changes here and
taking list

pushing them across And now were home free cause at that Ill that
point argue

we wont have to now stop using this as our development instead replace it with

that Thats what my goal is thats the order..

TH dont understand what the difference is since the directories are the same

But theyre not the files in them are some of them

Li The difference is that

Theyre the same right now If

you stare making changes its matter of where to

apply the changes

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Do you how how to work in two trees right now on Mac How do we work it

with two repositories on the Mac

Uh badly like we always have mean whats your questions

Is there
any issue of pulling form multiple repositories Were pulling..

Oh Im sorry know what you meant you meant you mean pulling from two

different trees oh its not problem

JR Not problem on the Mac not problem in Windows then right now theres

relocation issues that inside of the free source tree we have in directories
things

which directly conflict with think things that we have in the actual commercial

build

dont get why if

you just sort of like pretend that that minor triangle there in

commercial isnt there what difference is there mean...if we pretend like that red

triangle is not there...it seems like

my life is simpler

JR No we really all think we all want to be in the same place eventually But this

other approach to of what the

reaching this this is my description alternate

approach is Today we have the commercial build and it looks like this and were

saying were using the free tree initially and youre saying well the answer is that

this approach the truth is we almost want to get rid of this in fact we want to

throw that
away completely and this is called NS We want to move into
something

called NS Priv which weve never been there before and we want to take the old

free tree and use it as subsection and we want to build this interesting tree around

this

LT No thats not want we want to do NS Priv at the top right

JR can show you where Java resides in here right..

LT Wait minute let me post directions is this NS

JR Thats NS

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LT And this is NS OK and theres an NS in here theres an NS priv right

Ml No thats not what hes saying

LT What are..

JR Show me where Java is on this and then show me and then want to see the

emigration of Java

LT OK today Java is here At NS sun Java And it doesnt exist over here right

Now there are two things you can do We can we can you could actually force

NS Sun Java over here so that you could get yourself back into working state

OK youd have to be very careful about how you did updates and commits but

JR You cant have directories that reflect two different right now have

LT You cant do up form them but if

you do CYS check outs it works

JR have some files that have to come from here for Java in single directory and

some files that have to come from here in the same directory the same directory

tell me how do that Thats the problem

LT Well no think in the same directory

How big problem is it

Whs the
scope of that issue right

JR This is what it comes down to From Sun Java me

perspective youre asking

when Javas broken just move it all around to different directories and then and
try

glue it back together

LT Yeah but youre solving build problem for the most what youre doing is
part

youre solving. .youre hacking build files youre not hacking files

JR Thats what want to do but right now Im solving Im re-architecting all sorts of

relationships between directories

LT But you shouldnt do that

you should

JR Is the Java group the

only group thats going that what
through is it really comes

down to and no one else is..

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No the Mac FE the Win FE the FE the Composer team theyre all
gonna have

the same problem But what Figured wed do is

very simply first identify where

these cases were then try to figure out what would be that we could
plan just

simply solve this problem from make perspective first In other words move

them elsewhere Boom then we have no problem with two trees Its probably

take couple of days to do that

gonna

JR Im sad that while we have busted Java were also moving Java You know move

it while its broken..

But weve got busted Fes as well and were moving Fes mean..

JR And thats what Im saying is bad its harder its harder to do modularization and

repair at the same time

LT would say dont do that would actually say..

Youre not changing any code..

LT believe you can solve the majority of this with build hacks and then remove the

hacks as you get it better Its mostly mean you can do this with includes you

can do this lot of ugly ways but you can actually make it work With Build

hacks mean you shouldnt have to change anything..

JR Listen think we can do it in lots of ways and Im just to do in the

trying it
way

thats gonna take us fewer years fewer months certainly OK this is its lot of

stuff to take out and just reintegrate in other

just say rip it it
some youre saying

move it from Sun Java should not be in NS it should be in NS Priv And so that

means all sorts of includes and pound includes would have dot dots are all screwed

up

MT All right but the problem is Jim believe that

your path will actually result in

building commercial thing We will never ever ever have free source again mean

we just wasted three months

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JR And Im arguing that we should keep Bonsai tree building fee source the whole

time were trying to break commercial tree off the floor

MT The trees not free As soon as you turn

your files back on that trees not free

anymore You will un-free that tree tomorrow

Li dont have way of pulling something and getting the free thing anymore man

you just said youve got directories that share files that are tainted right

JR Thats right

Li So have to CVS undelete those Ive got the CVS add them back

JR No have to actually move them but want to move them with the tree working

before move and the tree working after move

Mi Thats what Im saying so we taint the whole tree and then we free it
again thats

what youre saying

dont want to
go through this fire drill again..

MT Well taint it and well never get it free again

JR dont see the tainting that youre talking about

Mi Heres what youre saying essentially Lets theres day that we started doing

free source lets ignore everything happened to the tree after that That just didnt

even happen

JR No Im saying ignore this tree over here in left field

Mi No that didnt happen youre saying lets back the clock up lets back the truck up

to the day that the commercial builds There its February

clients is thy 22..its

this
essentially is the logical equivalent to what youre saying On that day the

commercial client builds work

perfectly all the features security works Java

works exactly where you want to be

JR Thats where want to to didnt say back and Im not

get it
up interested in

backing up the tree or untainting or removing of the copyright

any or any of the

work that weve done

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LT Yeah but youve got to get files back and theres over laps about where they are

in directories and stuff and youve got to get them moved out into some and so

what Im saying is its build hacking

anyway Jim dont think that youve got

that much...the hard the movement about the NS and the NS Priv is build hacking

anyway and youve got to really tear that stuff apart to begin with Youre gonna

have to youre gonna have to tear that stuff and so what you want
up anyway to

do is get the build script problems fixed and get them in to two separate places

And then without Oil this done that and then worry
actually thing get it
way

about modularization

JR From our perspective theres no question that OJI were already arguing we

dont want Java to drop on the floor Right now the tree is broken so badly that we

cant even check to see if Java is in place And so Im in this death hell and you say

well what you should do is first and reassemble do of Java

try reintegration

over here theres just lot more work And as say it could be that maybe Java

or Maybe XFE or other people are the only people dont know who else is

feeling the pain but in to other people theres lot of potential..

speaking

LI .you could actually pull both things and then Tar one up and then un tar it on top

of the other and then get yourself tree...and not use CVS at that to track
point

your build...or build of actually this What you want

yourself way simulating

simulating the tree you want by pulling both places..

Would it
help at all if you drew diagram as to how you think its gonna work
your

Then Jim can..

LT OK so the world that think that were in this world today there is NS priv

today

MT We need to find somebody who owns this Because we can have bright people

arguing about this forever but until owns its not

somebody it going anywhere

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LT Well then somebody in client eng has to decide and cant decide

Lloyd we on
talk later
2.

general discussion

JR Hes got 430 meeting he has to go to Hes not just walking out as of frustration

hes walking out to go to the next meeting

break

JZ Why the hell not

MT Sodas

TH Dr Pepper

OK how do you say Mozilla in French clicking

This is where we build the source right here

No the source is actually running on Smith Corona right now

yah right here

Its ported looks like..

it
only

JC Uh huh Im ready to push it to the FFP site ..push..to. .FTP site...yeah Mozilla

Ahh stop...clicking Free Mozilla All right Im having too much fun Ive lost it

took this project to do it Did you how

finally it just know learned to build on

Windows that was something

Michaels not wearing one Taras not wearing one

Looking happier Mi John Charles hes got one on

OK what are we here for legal review

want T-shirt

Th You get nothing and like it

Wednesday come to the all hands

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Are you double

Yes sir

We need sander on this legal file now that JG is here

MT Yeah but we cant have the answer without Mitchell or some Mitchell like

replacement And we also need Todd so we can get the list of true confessions

Phone rings Did fail to invite Todd to this meeting

Hello Yep its Todd Yeah to the pit

general conversation

MT All right lets run this meeting in an efficient and family fashion Todd

Goldman is on the list on the phone so we just wanted to make the decision in

sensible way about whether Mitchell OKd for these bits to leave the building Um
there we had review with Mitchell of basically all the issues that we knew about

about week ago and um as far as know the the third

remaining problems are

party things that are unsigned and this legal text thing this legal text file which

just appeared on the radar today we can do as much or as little of review of

all that information as people think would bee helpful at high level um or at

detailed level

Its probably worth giving little bit of high level..

Whats the legal text thing

vfl Oh its just the NPL

license file
says if
you ship something under it will have file

saying what the legal ramifications of this stuff are Like what patent things there

might be or...but that file doesnt exist

Well there are drafts of that file

MT Yes there are

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..that would constitute that file

Ml That file does not exist

When will it exist

MT Its on my list of the four things need to have before can ship the Tar Ball

There are some problems with the current Tar Ball Thats one of them We cant

make the final Tar Balls until thats resolved there will be other issues in
Hopefully

this room So one thing that need lawyer to tell me is whos writing that file

Harvey Anderson

MT OK do we know that does Harvey know hes writing that file

Harvey has decided..

Does he know how soon he has to write that file

Ml OK will call Harvey when leave this room Thats good All right so at the

high level we mad the source code we took out the profanity we identified the

third
party things we drilled down on each individual third
party thing to find

which things we could ship and which things we cant Things that we couldnt

ship we either removed or got permission to ship We have list of very small that

were still for from what

waiting permission slips is that list right now Todd

TO OK the list is now down to Microline Neuron Data which thats who Im waiting
for call back from but think Im Ok there uh and Apple And Don...I havent

heard back from MetroWorks

yet..

MT uh we havent heard back from MetroWorks did you fax the stuff to Daradino

TO Yeah its been faxed...she faxed that earlier this morning..

Andrea faxed earlier this 10

it
morning around

TO Yeah..

Well Ive got the CEO of the companys Cell Phone number somewhere guess

could call him

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NIT lets do these things one at time

TG OK so..

MT Apple

TG So Apple weve got wait on Mitchell on that but basically my understanding is

that uh theyve requested to have two changes to the agreement that Mitchell had

drafted with them the lawyer that spoke to felt that them were not they were not

very major changes and that we could make those changes So were waiting on

Mitchell for her to bless them and we need hear back from her on that
to on

NIT Do you know where Mitchell is or what hell shes in right now
TO Shes at home shes working from home today So if could get off this line so

once finish my portion Ill

get off the line and will call Andrea to see if weve

heard anything Ive not been able to do that yet MetroWorks and then also Ill

check on the status of Apple

Do you have Mitchells home number

TG No let me check and see if its in here...does anybody else have it

yeah weve got it...Bob go ahead

969 3512

TG 969-3512 thats her home number

Yeah hold on Im gonna try to conference her in phone rings

The code were from Apple section of Mac Ap

licensing is that allows us to do

Pascal and like strings at the same time and its very minor section of code

Weve known about this since early February

MT How many lines of code

Urn its not the number of lines of code its how inbred it is in the client We

decided...huh yeah we decided Scott and Paul decided that its probably 4-5 days

worth of work to replace it with something else and make sure it

actually works

And two weeks ago we made the not to

call
go there

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TG ...why dont you do it because Im afraid that Ill loose neuron when they call

me Her mobile phone is 415.608.0466

So what want to know is if it looks like were stalling here does..Martha here have

to get on the phone to Steve Jobs or something or duke it out

Shes looking forward to that

MT OK were on hold on Apple Microline

TG Were on hold on that but Im waiting for them to call me think were OK on

that

Ml We basically have an agreement were waiting for piece of paper and

MetroWorks we basically have an agreement were waiting for piece of paper

TG Correct

They said if you do this and insert this line of text were fine and we have dont

that and we have done diligence on the code

can ask another on Apple

question If
you ware working with lawyer

there are they the ones that will sign off an amended document or do they need

some business person..

TG dont know mean Mitchell has been handling that one directly think shes got

actually some business person is gonna be signing that

Its not gonna happen

TG At Apple But my understanding is once the lawyer they are in principal they

agree The issue is legal issue not business one and they are trying to work on

the wording to cover Apple with regard to some..

Well the question is even if they have that do they have to brief some business
go

person and make all that happen..

TG Probably but my understanding is the business people are in the loop on this and

had this discussion with Mitchell the other day about well we
if get to an

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agreement in principal shell be able to tell us if she thinks its worth taking the

risk or not

MT Do you know the name of the business person at Apple

TO do not know that name cause have not been doing this one directly Mitchell

has

MT right so the worst case scenario would be that we only shipped the Windows

client tomorrow

JC Should we talk about risk

MT Lets talk about worst case scenario first is we only ship the Windows client and the

other ones are al out later Microline

Yeah but were not gonna hip the first open source on Windows right

TH Thats just our worst case..

MT Well then one of two things needs to happen We either need to decide were

shipping it
anyway right..

Microline is what he said they wanted line of text..

No Microline is something thats the widget library of Macs MetroWorks is the

one with the line of text..

MT And Apple are both Mac only

Those gate at uh Mac release only Windows has nothing gating it

right now other

than this legal document

JC Whats the risk were taking if we decided that we know we have an agreement

with those people havent

they signed the paperwork yet and we release the code

anyway Whats the worse that could happen

Theres no lawyers here we can all speculate about that until were blue in the face

Ml All right well lets not waste our time at this meeting

JC Well he can make that decision

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MT Not without legal advice he cant laughter

lets talk to Mitchell What predict is the worse case is we ship Windows and

LINUX tomorrow and Apple servers melt in 20 hours when the Net finds out that

theyre holding up the release of the Mac version

And living in fish bowl well make sure that clear laughter

MT Well see this is why want to find the business person at Apple so that he

understands that thats whats gonna happen

TO think they understand exactly whats gonna happen once again its not what

Harvey told me is that its not an issue of them not wanting to They want to

Ml So heres the deal There is no Mitchell So this meeting is waste of every bodys

time until theres Mitchell What do we want to do after somebody talks to

Mitchell

TO Excuse me

Mt At some point and time Mitchell will

reappear. .what

Youve got the checklist

Ml Yes

when you talk to her when somebody talks to her..

No no .talk to Mitchell OK And then somebody talks to Mitchell and then you

trust that
get people you youre willing to depend on like the people in this room

to come to you and say that issue solved The of paper

is piece is in Harveys hand

or whatever and you check it off you list

MT Well Im not worried about the situation where at 900 1000 tomorrow morning

have all the pieces of paper...right thats an one

easy

Well whats the one thats hard

Ml dont have those pieces of paper OK Because what do tomorrow morning is..

..unless Mitchell or somebody in legal

says the risk of doing so in advance of

having piece of paper is something people..

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What Michael doesnt get is piece of paper or not What Michael gets is legal go

ahead or not And if we dont have go ahead we dont put it

up And then we

deal with it Does anybody disagree with that Like long people What OK
MT So lets summarize So that all these people can get out of the room whatever gets

resolved between now and tomorrow will get resolved at 959 tomorrow morning

Jamie will get go or no go for each tar ball from Tom Paquin And currently the

answer is no until youve talked to Mitchell on all Tar Balls OK Well make

Mitchell be the gate or who whos the gate

She might be calling any minute here..

TH would like to point out slight logistical problem If we cannot go out with the

Apple stuff because...currently the way the Tar Balls are being constructed is the

exact same content is in

every Tar Ball This was per Jamies request he wanted

the exact same content ... sent this mail out Friday every Tar Ball has to have

the same content

Well thats not the way theyre built now

TH OK well that was the request from Jamie..

We dont do that and its all Mac FE were OK

LT he was saying that in world in nice world hed like that but we dont have the

Mac FE and the Windows...were not doing that right

Right now each of the Tar Balls of the platforms is different

Mt OK so Ill be the gate Jamie doesnt ship anything at 959 tomorrow morning

without talking to me and then so currently the answer is no for

everything and

Ill try and drill that..

Whats the chance were gonna get this stuff resolved before we go to bed tonight

because Im not gonna do lot of sleeping..

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MT Thats not gonna get resolved before we go to bed tonight Everyone its 430

its the end of the thy every ones gone maybe it will get resolved tomorrow

morning

just personally cannot believe this

MT Yeah

just cannot .. believe this That were in this position at 430 on Monday

Ml The answer is no on all of them just to make it

simple and then at 959 tomorrow

will
say Windows right what if
something changes between now and then Well

the answer
fine yes on Windows...
is

This is maybe worthless marketing comment but really would not like to have

the first source out there be on Windows maybe Windows and LINUX but..

Why do you see it as bad mean it is our dollar platform

But it would be nice to do it on multiple platforms And think that the LINUX

out of respect for the LINUX community and sort of what theyve pioneered that

were kind of following in their footsteps thats another reason To have LINUX

up there on thy one

MT Is there some full court press method we can apply to make this
go faster like

having Jim Barksdale call whoevers running Apple today and say whats going on

with this its really important dont you want to be on the boat OK how do get

hold of you after talk to Mitchell.1

Oh Ill be here til

past .. cause were gonna talk after this think...cause need

to get clear on how to explain this license stuff to everybody...general

conversation

On this MetroWorks thing Im gonna try to get hold of the CEO of Metro Works

who lives here in the Valley. .the who was supposed

person to sign off was the

uh Borada in Texas and went into black hole so...Ill

go do that now

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Ml Were still looking for Mitchell oh we were so close

Were moments away

Ml OK so should relax and wait until Mitchell calls

ctj
otI2_saIcczdI

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