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Netscape Documentary /Pl.ct
Tape 33
Tone
CCJ tEa
background noise
The customer council to ask them about that you know how important is
standards and ptc they replied by saying standards very good to promote...they
dont need it
right now but the fact that Microsoft has that..
Solutions and..
What if we..
break
Whats that
said Matt had sun screen in his cabin and failed it was. .his dads is
dermatologist
Yeah
Yeah
Ioc
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Is Brenden coming
4.CVS
Do you have any news forks about like staffing Oh machines IS is like theyre
not calls
basically returning my So..
Do we have any..
Im doing an adjustment..
Weinsteins
Um dont think you need to print it out but may be wrong phone rings Hey
OK so lets skip around urn lets talk about the new release
party since oh Jodi
hi
Hi
Um got this mail from Jarnie that said...where do you want to sit
got this mail frorn Jamie that said theyre having the party in Seattle
Iwant to
go
You want to go
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there
Well Im going if we dont have party but like said the has been
gauntlet
thrown
Cause this
sucks becaseu Warren
place like said.uK you know one more bus ride
to and boat
Berkeley trip around the Bay and Im gonna kill myself
If were going to have party its gonna be cool one not corporate..
place laughs
You guys are so unzip its wonder your butts dont fall off laughter
UiI have no clue how much it costs to rent night club in San
Franciscoum
and Im little bit worried about getting motivated to
people go all the there
way up
Sure
JZ But you know heres the thing Im Im gonna choose which party Im gonna go
better than party that you go to you go to laughter you know Im sorry may
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go Seattle with you but Im serious about that And these guys dont live in San
Ai
Francisco and they got to go to work on Wednesday well dont know maybe
JZ No they dont
Ii
not going to get all the details done in here Do you want to talk to Dave Dave is
Ny
LT OK lets dive right intb that Theres just some disconnects between whats going
on and what the elief is over in client land and what uh OK so whats happened
is NSPR has delivered Tar Ball right thats not based on the repository right..
JZ Is that true
reeve
Yes theres things in the CVS tree that arent for public consumption
LT OK and so thats different model than anybody else is working from And thats
fine if thats the way you guys want to work Lsotw so talked to Tara
little this morning about this and what we could do is take your Tar Ball check it
into the tree and build off that OK There was some talk about the make system
beJajyou guys have different make systems than than the client does
LT Excuse me
When the client builds they use 0-make aR for NSPR it invokes G-make
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LT Right it does And sojjiir theres from the client point of view thats hard ship
LT Or yours
...anyway think its to solve this Would be
relatively easy problem it
OK if we left you make system alone you guys use G-make if fine with that
your
you deliver to us we check the sta- we check in what you deliver into the
Mozilla.org tree we build client from it and thats it We just take the Tar Ball
anything from the way it works today for now for this release Youre OK with
OK
L%f
source
It is Mozilla.org
So it is Source isnt it
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Its just simple point Lloyd is it true or not If its not true dont have to
LT Whats true is that weve were logically separating the repository what weve
been doing all the work thats been going on is to logically separate the repository
into the free part and the non free part OK since you guys want to keep your stuff
in in non free mode and you want to do your development in non free mode
and you want to make deliveries into free space then we have then were
eventually were going take that part of the repository and make it free but.
to do
Tell us anyway
LT believe do but if
you
wait to elaborate on it yeah Id be glad to hear it..
Our major occupation is not delivering source 331 we have to do that kind of like
spare time What we really do is develop code for mostly the server clients right
now Were not going to stand on our head to make that harder Thats what we
want to work well Well do whatever we have to to support 331 Thats thea1
LT OK And Im OK with that Im not Im trying to find way that we can all work
you the first utterance out of your mouth is we fucked up Youj might consider
Which ones
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LT The one the stuff on Hard core the binary distribution stuff OK You know
mean believe if you want to ask me question bout it believe can answer
it for you OK but think its think its smart wart way to work
LT Quite while OK
You know how much motions been put in to it mean how much client has
LT There are cultural you guys have culture the client has culture the problems
are when cultures mix And what youve got the right thing to do is to make it so
Matt. .Harnesson
LT It wasnt ..it didnt take in client right For whatever reason it didnt take
Thats Right
Thats history
LT Thats history right and so what were trying to do is make this release we
wanted to figure out way that we can get that it can be released And so this is
OK
LT Uh huh
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Urn youre probably going to think this is naive and this doesnt come from the
urn. .why am wrong in thinking that it would be better that we had one make
system that ran everywhere and the only one can think of right now top of
off the
LT There are. .one its bad theres re theres major re-work Urn 0-make is
lot slower on windows than it is on UNIX OK Inside the client jat theres two
part that builds the NSPR stuff there is this uh G-make style recourse the
directory um system which is the make file dot win system and um there is
third one which is the Mozilla.make system which is more of model and it
just
expensive and also the loading of the state the state information
tendency is also
pretty slow beatet to figure out what work needs to be done is somehow sI
studio
General discussion
Why becaseu its been an open issue People bump into me in the
hallways several
LT It reafly does come up lot Jamie believe me dont want it to come up..
The reason we want to use 0-make is security and in NSPR because its simpler
Its simpler for us Its easier to maintain becaseu theres only one set of conflict
files Urn Lloyd uh has the good argument that i-make is slower and think
Brian has Brian Ostrum has done lot of work to make i-make faster but them
are are architectural issues with the way 0-make works versus the
way N-make
Windows which is we have these things called manifest files that when you
on UNIX and on Windows to make sure that it worked If you make modifi if
if
you change it in one place and then have to test in both places you have to be
code um
LT Its lore its theres lot more lore in make systems and lot more well more
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Heres what think. .1 think code is code make or feed but agree with you that
that people think make calls are hairier and fewer people know about them as well
LT And its not so theres one person whose domain it is to maintain the make system
generally and you dont want to be in there mucking with it You just want it to
So when the security guys pop up and say we want to use G-make what..
LT They did
LT Well originally it
was originally it was dont go there right becaseu..
Whats your response today mean this is essentially where we are right now
Security guy popped up this afternoon or this morning and said want to use
LT want uni actually what think the best thing is to have uniform make system
Yeah
really good if it worked very simply that youd go to the top and youd type make
way to go and so that the best thing for windows for building Windows client
LT Well there
already are there are more than that mean
Per directory.
10
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LT That way and Windows doesnt have doesnt organize it wither that
way
Its inconsistent with what you just said You just said you wanted one make
Thats different
different than what these guys want They want two make systems they want
Windows make they want Mac make system and they want
LT right
Not entirely becaseu Lloyd already remarked how cross platform code in the client
historically has two or three build files in each directory like Windows and
UNIX..
If was like
pure cross platform code guy if Im writing you know just filter
would really like to get away with writing one make file and call it
day
LT What you do is
you build it you test it on your platform and then you get people
on the other platform to work with you to get it in mean thats the way its been
Well wasnt the reason manifest files got added so that we wouldnt have to to
that..
Pagell
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LT Well it turned out that in pract it was great idea and in practice it
really sucked
It was really everybody was really afraid of touching manifest files Becaseu
Who
Actually in one case they werent even used by more than one platforms make
files right know of lot of UNIX systems that used them UNIX make files
but very
LI mean yeah it was problem beca they were becaseu the rules were unclear
JZ And still dont understand why youre to solve it here This sounds like
trying
something that
you and you and Tara should be talking about and not all of us
Right
One of the problems is that isnt high enough level because if it was just client
that was supporting this would be much easier of question have other
JZ Well at the end of the day youre writing cross platform code so is
everyone else
for clients its like the same problem And and answer thats good
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Yeah think theres lot of weirdwiC attitude and culture on Make systems
mean as II
recollect the you guys had proposal to Matt and urn John Hines
wrote up for binary distributions and it ran in to this religious war with Java people
about like whose make file was longer and stuff like that And dont think we
LT Lets just make sure we have an agreement OK. The agreement is we are going
to take the Tar Ball you gave us were gonna check it in to NSPR pub OK and
theyre gonna adapt whatever stuff that they do to glue their to glue their changes
in to the G-make they do some stuff right now in the NSPR 2.0 to make it work
in client and theyre gonna do the same thing but just that right
LT Well
As long as it doesnt change whats on the server
Theres one way one thing they do right now to make NSPR build and the client
build that is really bad And thats they run this PERL script over the config files
the NSPR config files and think that has to go away And the reason they do that
LT Well now were not developing new were get what we have
..for
stuff trying to
OK if
you want to leave that in fine but thats bad thing that needs to..
LT OK Ill acknowledge that as bad thing and then in the future when you want
Mozilla.org right
OK stop stop
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Yes you can get away with almost anything now Were all getting yelled at is
make..
LT just want to make sure that we dont just want to make sure that we dont that
we do this and can go down to Tara and explain exactly the steps that are
happening and dont want cause every time do this say were gonna do this
this need to be this explicit Tom becaseu we keep having this discussion
Fine but think youve got another calls too mean think you brought this
up
five or six minutes ago agree yes thats what were doing and then and
were gonna need is urn you know the theory of make and Mozilla regardless of
where we are now where we want to be Your contention is its one build
your
per platform OK fine so describe that And if youve got warts youve got
warts
have to address this its got to get weve make the world better
got to than it is
today will
try to get the free source OK and in that vMn Ijust want to make
sure that theres that were gonna put stuff in repository and youre
up gonna to
thats the last thing and then Im done Nod your heads Say yes we agree to
that OK
And the fact that youre maintaining two trees or however be
youre going to
LT OK right
iozz. 7z
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Urn we just think we all need to have you and us need to have rneting
LT OK that can happen after 331 Ijust want to make sure we get that out
Right
LT OK sure
Owners
Oh god
JZ Well OK whatever mean but Mozilla.org is gonna ship 6.0 and then go off
and start working on 7.0 and someones gonna find really serious crashing bug
doing that But every now and then youre gonna make what believe
you to be
OK
/042-5 ft
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tim you have stable release and what you do...youre buzzing along dont
how many
care branches there are you know time goes that
way tiuand these
guys all come back in or maybe somebodys off in this space and you smile upon
this and declare it be 5.0 or something You archive it Its not branch on tree
you just take some tar file and create you know Tarred and and Untarred directory
structure somewhere where people can just see this is what 5.0 is Thats it And
the tree continues to buzz along Stuff happens to it Uh maybe theres branches
whatevers next presumably 6.0 Big things can happen or small things can
happen but big things dont hit this tree until kind of their in
Whatis5.01
JZ This is the way life work OK They have theyve the development branch right
right And then the pentium bug showed up and they had to put fix into that
JZ So does Lines
LT Its OK..
question is whether or not Im not arguing that Im just saying whether or not
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Lets make sure Tom agrees with that because dont think he does You dont
put the fix them because there are 19 other fixes besides the Pentium fix and 19
Yes itis
JZ Its
year later and you need one line change to what was in 5.0
LT No
Not even close
LT Yes laughs
Right
Well what do you do with bugs that get found like serious bugs
Yeah dont understand why can check that fix in...and the delta the CYS dif
dash. .dash...C
to co
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JZ Becaseu the code might have been totally restructured by then You know the patch
Here my take is we put out this stable Tar Ball that 5.0 that people are grabbing
And weve decided its really bad and we want to but out different stable Tar Ball
to 5.0
OK gimme some gut feel here um this things goes out and lets say endures for
ship 6.0 go back and look at 5.0 what how many of these beasts do youi think
existed on 5.0
Mterayear
About 1/4 1/10 this should happened like one in ten times This is rare
really
Yeah
OK But thats not quite thats not quite the model were talking about You said
Yeah but my point is by the time we ship 6.0 how many of those have occured
during this
process
One or two
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discussion
OK Im sorry this is
uninterestingly small
think everyones in violent agreement how to do this The only reason were all
Well Im not talking thought you were talking about things that actually occur
with some frequency What youre talking about is...a moderate cataclysm
disaster
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