E Preston Dobbs - Debate

Preston-Dobbs Debate
on
Covenant Eschatology
Spring 2006
Preliminary Questions
QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY DON K. PRESTON

TO H. A. “BUSTER” DOBBS
AND H. A. “BUSTER” DOBBS’ ANSWERS
Preston’s Question #1:
Are your, (Buster Dobbs’), eschatological hopes, i.e. the hope

of the Second (i.e. the ultimate) coming of Christ, judgment,
resurrection, based upon, and grounded in, the yet future fulfill-
ment of the Old Testament promises / prophecies made to Old
Covenant Israel?
Yes No
Dobbs’ Answer to Question # 1:
The question is somewhat difficult to follow, mainly because

it is too wordy. I will pare it down to its essentials so that those
of us who do not speak Jabberwocky can understand it.
There are two i.e.’s in the question. Since “i.e.” means “that
is to say,” we can take out the i.e.’s and leave the explanation,
without changing the meaning of the question. We can also
remove the personal reference, which is a tad condescending; we
should also remove superfluous words that cloud the meaning of
the question. The only reference I could find to the “Old Cove-
nant” in the 8 translations I consulted is in 2 Cor 3:14, where the
writer is speaking of the covenant God made with Israel at Sinai.
I conclude that the question is about the covenant that God made
with Israel “in the day he took them by the hand to lead them forth
4 Preston-Dobbs Debate
out of the land of Egypt,” and, consequently, have made that

adjustment.
The corrected question reads: “Is your hope of the ultimate
coming of Christ based upon unfulfilled promises and prophecies
made to Israel in the Sinai covenant?
The answer to the clarified question is no, seeing that there
were no promises and prophecies about the final coming of Christ
from heaven to earth in the “Old Covenant” of Israel. The Old
Testament conceals Christ; the New Testament reveals Christ.
Paul wrote in Eph 3:1-9:
3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus in

behalf of you Gentiles, —
2 if so be that ye have heard of the dispensation of that

grace of God which was given me to you-ward;
3 how that by revelation was made known unto me the

mystery, as I wrote before in few words,
4 whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my under-

standing in the mystery of Christ;
5 which in other generation was not made known unto

the sons of men, as it hath now been revealed unto his
holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to wit, that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs, and fellow-

members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the prom-
ise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7 whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of

that grace of God which was given me according to the
working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, was
this grace given, to preach unto the Gentiles the un-
searchable riches of Christ;
on Covenant Eschatology 5
9 and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the

mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created
all things”.
I emphasize certain points Paul made because they are rele-

vant to answering the question:
1. Paul was “the prisoner of Christ on behalf of Gentiles”
(v. 1)
2. A mystery had been revealed to him (v. 3)
3. His letter to the saints would show Paul’s understanding
of this mystery (v. 4)
4. In past generations the mystery was not made known, but
was now, for the first time, being revealed by Paul and other
inspired writers (v. 5)
5. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and
partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel (v. 6)
6. Paul was writing to the saved at Ephesus so that all men
could understand the revealed mystery (v. 9)
“The promise in Christ” (v. 5) would include his ultimate
return to destroy the world, bring final salvation to the redeemed,
and reject those who “know not God” and “obey not the gospel
of the Lord.” We know that this is yet future for the following
reasons:
Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:8-13:
8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is
with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years
as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some

count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not
wishing that any should perish, but that all should come
to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the

which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and
the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned
up.
11 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved,

what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living
and godliness,
12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the

day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire
shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with
fervent heat?
13 But, according to his promise, we look for new

heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness
[Unquote].
I call attention to the fact that Peter is here discussing “his

promise” (vv.9, 13), which makes this passage appropriate in
giving an answer to a question about promises and prophesies
concerning the final coming of Jesus.
Again, I highlight certain points in this passage:
1. The reference to one day being like a thousand years, and
a thousand years as one day indicates that Peter did not know and
would not presume to say when Jesus would make his final return
from heaven to earth it could be a short time, or it could be a long
time (v. 8).
2. The final return of Jesus will be unheralded – like a thief
(v. 10). Any coming of the Lord that has signs announcing that
it is impending, is not the ultimate coming of Christ.
3. When Jesus does come back to earth for the last time, the
heavens will pass away with a great noise (v. 10). Since the
heaven of heavens, where God’s throne is, can never pass away,
then Peter must be talking about the heaven where the birds fly,
and the heaven where the stars shine – those heavens. Since the
birds are still flying and the stars are still shinning, we can be sure
that the passage does not refer to an event in the past.
4. At the ultimate return of Jesus the earth, its elements, and
its works will “be burned up” (v. 10).
5. At the second literal coming of Jesus the earth, its ele-
ments and works will be dissolved (v. 11). “Dissolved” means
to melt or do away with, and since the atmosphere around the
earth, and the earth and its contents continue, we must conclude
this has not happened yet. It is still future.
Preston’s Question #2
Do you, Buster Dobbs, believe that the coming of Christ

foretold in Matthew 13:38-43; Acts 1:9, 1 Corinthians 15:23-28,
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 2 Thessalonians 1:7f, Revelation
14:14f 22:12, 20 is the same coming, i.e. the Second Coming of
Christ, (i.e the ultimate) coming of Christ?
Yes No
If you do not believe that any one, (or more), of these passages
(Matthew 13:38-43; Acts 1:9, 1 Corinthians 15:23-28, 1 Thessa-
lonians 4:13-18, 2 Thessalonians 1:7f, Revelation 14:14f, 22:12,
20), predicts the Second (i.e. ultimate), coming of Christ, please
identify that passage, or passages, (from the ones listed), and give
your specific scriptural and contextual reasons why you do not
believe that it, (or they), is a prediction of Christ’s Second (i.e.
ultimate) Coming.
Dobbs’ Answer to Question #2
This is several questions. A single question would be, Do you

believe that the coming of Christ foretold in Matthew 13:38-43
is the ultimate coming of Christ? If you cast each of the references
into a concise question, you have 8 questions. So, please under-
stand, this multiplies the questions. Instead of 10 questions, we
have 18 questions. I do not complain but only explain.
To answer these questions, we must have an understanding of
Bible teaching about the kingdom.
What The Bible Says About The Eternal Kingdom Of God.
The Kingdom of God is eternal because God is eternal –
having neither “beginning of days nor end of life.”
There has never been a time when the Kingdom of God did
not exist; there never will be a time when it does not exist.
Before God made the “heavens and the earth and all that in
them is,” his kingdom existed. When the “stars of the heaven”
fall “unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she
is shaken of a great wind,” God’s Kingdom will continue to be.
To discuss, intelligently, kingdom matters, we must first
recognize the various kingdoms:
1. The Eternal Kingdom of God
2. The earthly phases of the Eternal Kingdom of God
3. The realm over which Satan rules
4. The kingdoms (nations) of this world
5. The world is also called the kingdom (of God)
Eden was an earthly manifestation of the Kingdom of God.
As long as man was dutiful, he lived in supreme happiness and
peace. That paradise was lost. Man disobeyed his Maker. God
drove sinful man out of Eden.
Rarely, an inspired writer or speaker calls the world the
kingdom. God made it. It is his. He is sovereign, though his
creature may refuse his rule. The noun “sovereignty” means
“power, control, authority, dominance.” Still, in his infinite
mercy and limitless wisdom, God allows man to have free
agency. God is the monarch of the world, but makes concessions
to humankind. God is a king who chooses to allow his subjects
free range. He does this not because he must, but because he
loves. His desire is to have man make correct decisions and
receive rewards accordingly.
After man lost the garden of God, there was a dismal period
of increasing wickedness. Sin, inevitably, brings disease and
death.
When the darkness of rebellion filled the whole world, the
great Noachian flood washed away the sordid mess. The Sover-
eign God expressed his holiness and his power. The destruction
was an affirmation of his powerful word, and a reminder of his
kingship (2 Pet 3:5-6). The world, “compacted out of water and
amidst water,” sprang into existence “by the word of God,” and
by that same word, it perished. It was done for the benefit of
coming generations.
Next, we learn about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph and
his brothers, of the descent into Egypt and the coming of Moses.
You know that Abram “looked for a city that hath foundations,
whose builder and maker is God.”
Abram was expecting the Kingdom of God.
God said of Sarah, “Kings of peoples shall be of her” (Gen

17:6,16). God knew that kings would descend from this noble
pair. This would include all the kings of Israel and Judah. Balaam
refers to Jacob and Israel as a kingdom (Numbers 24:4-7)
You know of God’s Emancipation Proclamation, when He
sent Moses to tell Pharaoh, “Let my people go.”
The mighty and uplifted arm of God brought the slaves out
Egypt and into liberty. He freed the captives.
God gave the liberated people a law at Sinai. “If ye will obey
my voice indeed and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine
own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine:
and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation
” (Ex 19:5-6).
Israel, at the time of her beginning, was a kingdom of priests
and a holy nation (another stage of the Kingdom of God).
In the Law of Moses, God gave instructions about the behav-
ior of Israel’s kings (Deut 17:18, 20). The emphasis was upon
knowing the will of God and doing it, because that is charac-
teristic of the Kingdom of God.
Saul became king of Israel, but her true ruler was Jehovah.
Samuel said to the people, “Come, and let us go to Gilgal, and
renew the kingdom there” (1 Sam 11:14).
Renew the kingdom? Ah, yes, renew means to rebuild, or to
return to something. God wanted the kingdom of Israel to be a
phase of his undying Kingdom.
The Eternal Kingdom seeks an earthly manifes-

tation.
David was Israel’s greatest king -- a type of Messiah. David

foreshadowed; Jesus fulfilled. David was the shadow; Jesus was
the substance.
Christ sits on David’s throne (Luke 1:32-33; Isa 9:6-7; Acts
2:30-31).
David, in the Psalms, revealed things about the Kingdom of
God. For instance:
“For the kingdom is Jehovah’s; and he is ruler over the
nations” (Psa 22:28).
“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever” (Psa 45:6).

“Jehovah hath established his throne in the heavens; and his
kingdom is over all” (Psa 103:19).
“They [all thy works and all thy saints] shall speak of the glory
of thy kingdom and talk of thy power” (Psa 145:11).
Jehovah makes “known to the sons of men his mighty acts,
and the glory of the majesty of his kingdom” (Psa. 145:12).
“Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion
endureth throughout all generations” (Psa 145:13).
David affirms:
1. God has an everlasting kingdom
2. God regarded the nation of Israel as an extension of His
Kingdom
3. God’s Kingdom has glory and majesty
4. The Kingdom of God endures through all generations
The history of the house of Israel reveals good kings and bad
kings. The good ones were always submissive to God and obeyed.
The bad ones turned away from God and transgressed his word.
The kingdom of Israel waxed worse and worse (a slippery
slope), until Babylonian might crushed it.
There was a restoration. The nation flourished, but continued
to kill the prophets (symbolic of rejecting God’s message).
Daniel wrote about the kingdom, saying, (1) God would reject
Israel and (2) a new phase of the everlasting Kingdom of Jehovah
would appear. It would have unlimited territory. Its king would
not be on earth, but in heaven (Dan 7:13-28).
Daniel said, Saints receive the kingdom, and Jesus confirmed
it (Dan 7:18; Luke 12:32).
Daniel, looking into the future, spoke of civil kingdoms, and
of a rock cut out of the mountain -- a new aspect of the spiritual
Kingdom of God. God’s kingdom would destroy the kingdoms
of men (Dan 2:31-46), not by military might, but by holiness.
King Darius said, “[T]he God of Daniel is the living God and
his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed; and his dominion
shall be even unto the end” (Dan 6:26).
Daniel saw in the night visions “one like unto a son of man”
(Jesus) coming to the “ancient of Days (Jehovah)” and receiving
a Kingdom that shall never be destroyed “the saints of the Most
High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for
ever, even for ever and ever” (Daniel 7:14-18).
The Kingdom in the New Testament
Prince Immanuel appears. His forerunner was John the bap-

tist.
Many of the Jews were looking for the kingdom (Luke 19:11;
Mark 15:43; Luke 2:25)
“And in those days cometh John the baptist, preaching in the
wilderness of Judea, saying, Repent ye; for the kingdom of
heaven is at hand” (Matt 3:1-2; Mark 1:15).
Jesus and his disciples preached the same message (Matt 4:17;
10:7; Luke 8:1, 10).
John, Jesus, and the disciples preached the gospel of the
kingdom (Matt 4:23; Luke 4:43; 8:1; Luke 9:2).
The headquarters of the Kingdom is heaven; Revelation 4 and
5 describe the heavenly kingdom.
The lamb, “standing as if it had been slain,” established a
kingdom that included “men of every tribe, and tongue, and
people, and nation” (Rev 5:9). Jesus made them to be “unto our
God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth” (Rev
5:10).
The church is an earthly manifestation of the Kingdom of
God, and fulfills Daniel 7:13-22.
Jesus said, “If I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then the
Kingdom of God is come upon you” (Matt 12:28). The power
Jesus exhibited in the signs and wonders attending his service on
earth proved the invisible, remote Kingdom of God had come
near. “But if I by the finger of God cast out demons, then is the
kingdom of God come upon you” (Luke 11:20), referring, of
course, to the Eternal Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom Comes
The Kingdom of God, sometimes called Kingdom of Heaven,

(these terms are used interchangeably in the New Testament,
however “Kingdom of Heaven” is peculiar to Matthew) was
announced as near, or at hand. Jesus said that it, the Kingdom,

would come within the lifetime of the people who heard him
teach.
“And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some
here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death,
till they see the kingdom of God come with power” (Mark 9:1,
see also Matt 16:28”the son of man coming in his Kingdom;” and
Luke 9:27).
Mark records Jesus as saying “the kingdom of God [will]
come with power.” The Lord is not speaking here of the Eternal
Kingdom of God because it has always been. He speaks of
another aspect of that ageless Kingdom – the earthly phase of the
Eternal Kingdom. The promised power, and the earthly phase of
the kingdom were to come at the same time. If we identify the
time when the power came, we can know when this new earthly
phase of the kingdom came.
In his final interview on earth with the apostles, Jesus said,
“ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you:
and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea
and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth” (Acts 1:8).
Jesus said the power would come when the Holy Spirit came
upon the apostles.
Acts 2:1-4 records the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the
apostles and therefore establishes the exact moment when the
kingdom that had been “at hand” came into existence. The
kingdom came at about 9 a.m. on Pentecost Sunday A.D. 30, in
the city of Jerusalem, as the prophets had foretold.
The kingdom that Jesus promised became a reality. This was
“the son of man coming in his kingdom.” We must make a clear
distinction between the Kingdom of God that has existed through
all time -- lasting for all time without beginning or end -- and the
kingdom Jesus said would come in the first century generation
with power. The former is the eternal kingdom of Almighty God,
and later is an earthly phase, and extension, of God’s unending
kingdom.
This is still another manifestation of the Eternal Kingdom –
like Eden, or the world, or Israel. The indestructible, invisible
Kingdom is the home base of deity. The “word of the kingdom”
is critical to the existence of the kingdom (Matt 13:19).
Jesus explained that man’s spirit must be born of water to enter

the Kingdom of God (John 3:5), making baptism, as an expres-
sion of faith and repentance, the door to the kingdom. To get in,
you have to go through the door.
Obeying the word is to receive the kingdom; rejecting the
word is rejecting the kingdom. Jesus taught his disciples to pray,
“Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth”
(Matt 6:10). Uninterrupted obedience to the word of God brings
the kingdom. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of
my Father who is in heaven” (Matt 7:21).
Jesus taught, in parabolic form, that the kingdom is like:
Good seed sown in the world (Matt 13:24; Luke 8:5-15)
A grain of mustard seed (Matt 13:31; Luke 13:18f)
Leaven in a lump (Matt 13:33; Luke 13:20-21)
Buried treasure (Matt 13:44)
A goodly pearl (Matt 13:45)
A net cast into the sea (Matt 13:47)
A householder who brings out of his treasure things new
and old (Matt 13:52
A king who made a reckoning with his servants (Matt
18:23)
A householder hiring laborers (Matt 20:1)
A marriage feast (Matt 22:2)
Wise and foolish virgins (Matt 25:1)
A nobleman giving money for his servants to invest (Luke
19:12ff)
The Kingdom of God:
Belongs to those of child-like faith and trust (Luke 18:17)
Is hard for the rich man to enter (Luke 18:25)
It is within the believer – in the spirit (mind), sometimes
called heart (Luke 17:21)
It is realized in the invisible, eternal Kingdom of God (Luke
22:16-18)
It comes not with observation (can’t see it) (John 18:36)
The kingdom of Jesus “is not of this world” (John 18:36)
After his resurrection, Jesus spoke “the things concerning the
kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3).
The apostles of Jesus misunderstood and supposed Jesus had

come to “restore the kingdom to Israel” (Acts 1:6), but would
know better when the Spirit came upon them.
Phillip preached “good tidings concerning the kingdom of
God and the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 8:12).
Paul and Barnabas told their converts “that through many
tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22).
These people were in the church, which is the body of Jesus, and
therefore in a sense they were in the kingdom, seeing the kingdom
and the church can be synonymous (Matt 16:18-19). Still, they
had not yet entered the Eternal Kingdom. Flesh and blood cannot
enter that kingdom (1 Cor 15:50). Flesh and blood can enter the
earthly manifestation of the Eternal Kingdom (Col 1:13), but not
the Eternal Kingdom itself. God translates mortals into “the
kingdom of the son of his love,” but the mortal must become
immortal and the corruptible become incorruptible to enter the
Kingdom of God – the kingdom that has always existed and
therefore has no beginning (1 Cor 15:50-54).
Only the washed – the holy and pure – can enter the Eternal
Kingdom of the Almighty (1 Cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:21; Eph 5:5).
”The kingdom of God (church of Christ) is not eating and
drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit”
(Rom 4:17). The kingdom is not in word (only) but (also) in
power (1 Cor 4:20). It springs up from sown seed (word) (Luke
8:11-15), as that powerful message is confirmed by divine
demonstrations (Heb 2:1-4; Mark 16:20).
We are called by the gospel to walk worthily of God and are
called “unto” his own (heavenly) kingdom and glory (1 Thess
2:12; 2 Thess 2:14; 2 Thess 1:5; 1 Tim 4:18).
Jesus sits with Jehovah on the Father’s throne and upholds all
things by the word of his power, being also the head of the body,
the church (earthly kingdom). The throne upon which Jesus and
Jehovah sit is forever and ever (Heb 1:8)
Purified souls are in the kingdom on earth, awaiting promo-
tion into the Eternal Kingdom. They are “receiving a kingdom
that cannot be shaken” (Heb 12:28). Upon entering that regal
realm, they will be “souls made perfect,” fit for companionship
with angels.
The saved are heirs of the kingdom. They anticipate “entrance

into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”
(James 2:5; 2 Pet 2:11). The redeemed are a kingdom and priests
” (Rev 1:6). Children of God partake with the apostles “in
tribulation and kingdom and patience which are in Jesus” (Rev.
1:9). The redeemed are “unto our God a kingdom and priests, and
they reign upon the earth” (Rev 5:10). The kingdoms of the world
will some glad day “become the kingdom of our Lord” (Rev.
11:15). At the ultimate coming of Jesus Satan and his imps will
be “cast down” (Rev 12:10). The day comes when “the throne of
the beast; and his kingdom” are “darkened; and they [the evil of
earth]” will gnaw “their tongues for pain, and” blaspheme “the
God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they
repented not of their works” (Rev 16:10-11).
Kingdoms of Men and Satan
There are also other kingdoms at work in the universe. We

often read of the earthly kingdoms of men – Babel (Gen 10:10),
Shion, and Og (Num 32:33), Babylon (Jer 27:8), Persia (2 Chron
36:20), Ahasuerus (Est 3:6), etc., Jeremiah refers to “all the
kingdoms of the world” (Jer 25:26).
The Bible speaks of the kingdom of Satan, which is invisible
and in the heart of the wicked. Satan is referred to as “the Prince
of this world” (John 12:31). The devil is also called “the prince
of the powers of the air” (Eph 2:2). Paul speaks of the “power of
darkness” (Col 1:13). The word translated “power” means
“authority, jurisdiction, rule or government.”
In addition, Satan controls many of the kingdoms of men. He
showed Jesus the kingdoms of this world and offered to give them
to him if Jesus would fall down and worship Satan (Matt 4:8-9).
The world is called the kingdom. In explaining the parable of
the tares, Jesus said, “the field is the world” (Matt 13:38); he later
spoke of gathering out of the kingdom (field, or world) the tares
– all that offends. Jesus says the world is the kingdom.
To recapitulate (1) God has an Eternal kingdom, (2) he made
the world intending that it should be an earthly phase of his
kingdom, (3) the nation of Israel is also said to be the kingdom
of God, and (4) Jesus came to remove Israel’s kingdom, and to

inaugurate another earthly phase of the heavenly Kingdom of
God.
Jesus announced that:
1. The kingdom of Israel, as an earthly extension of the
Eternal Kingdom of God (Heaven), would be rejected and de-
stroyed
2. A new earthly phase of the Eternal Kingdom of God
(Heaven) would be established, and would also be known as the
church (the called out people of God)
3. The day would come when the entire universe would be
destroyed and reduced to nothingness (consequently the planet
earth would be dissolved with fervent heat) bringing to an end
another aspect of God’s Kingdom, which is the world (2 Pet
3:8-11)
4. At the time of the final removal of the created universe,
the church (kingdom of God on earth) will be folded into the
Eternal Kingdom (1 Cor 15:24).
There are several destructions of earthly kingdoms mentioned
in the Bible. When we consider the abolishing of a kingdom, we
must study the context to know to what kingdom the writer refers.
The reference could be to Eden, the kingdom of Israel, the world
and its contents, or Satan and his crew.
Jesus established his kingdom (church) so the world might
have light. God is light (1 John 1:5). Jesus is the light of the world
(John 1:9-10; 8:12; 9:5). The word of God is a lamp and a light
(Psa 119:105).
Jesus’ disciples are to reflect his light (Matt 5:14). Saints
“shine forth as lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse
generation” (Phil 2:15). The light they bring is “the word of life”
(Phil 2:16).
Each light is to be contagious and kindles other lights. Jesus
calls men “out of darkness and into his marvelous light” (1 Pet
2:9).
The kingdom of Satan is a domain of darkness (Col 1:13).
Men loved darkness and not light (John 3:19). Most kingdoms of
men are darkness.
When the fullness of time came, God sent forth his son to be
the light of the world. The world was in the dense blackness of
darkness. Satan is “the prince of this world” (John 12:31, Eph

2:2). He holds dominion over much of the world.
Jesus brought light and ordains that his followers shine as
lights in the midst of the darkness. The saved person is a point of
light. Jesus wills that his disciples be multiplied millions of points
of light. This makes the world glow. Our light is the teaching of
Jesus.
Sad to say, Satan, though bound for a thousand years, comes
out of his hole – his bottomless pit -- and destroys the lights of
God. Like the five foolish virgins, our lights are going out.
When the darkness is great and the lights are few that will be
the day God has appointed to “judge the world in righteousness
by the man whom he has ordained, whereof he hath given
assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
Jesus commissioned Paul “[T]o open their (Gentiles and
Jews) eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from
the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive remission of
sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith
in me.”
There are several destructions of earthly kingdoms mentioned
in the Bible. When we consider the abolishing of a kingdom, we
must study the context to know to what kingdom the writer refers.
The reference could be to Eden, the kingdom of Israel, the world
and its contents, or Satan and his crew.
Brother Preston, in his question #2, requests that we comment
on several passages, which we are happy to do. Here is a list of
the verses Matthew 13:38-43; Acts 1:9, 1 Corinthians 15:23-28,
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 2 Thessalonians 1:7f, Revelation
14:14f 22:12, 20. Brother Preston wants to know if the coming
mentioned in these verses is the ultimate coming of Christ?
Having given the background of the kingdoms, I will take up the
verses one by one
MATTHEW 13:37-43
The passage brother Preston asked about, which is an inter-

pretation of the parable, reads:
37 “And he answered and said, He that soweth the good

seed is the Son of man;
38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are
the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the
evil one;
39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the
harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with

fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they
shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause
stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall
be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the

kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.”
What brother Preston references is Jesus’ interpretation of the

parable. The parable itself is in verses 24-30 of Matthew chapter
13.
The meaning of the parable is:
1. Jesus sowed the good seed (v. 37, see also Matt 13:1-8
and Matt 13:18-23). Notice the parable of the sower is in prox-
imity to the parable of the tares – one helps to explain the other.
2. The world/kingdom is the field (the seed of truth is
scattered throughout the whole world) (v. 38). When Jesus refers
to “his kingdom” in verse 41, he is speaking of “the world,” verse
38. There is a sense in which the world is an extension of the
Eternal Kingdom of God (Heaven).
3. The enemy is the devil (v. 39)
4. Burning the tares with fire is the end of the world (v. 40)
5. Angels of the son of Man shall root out of the kingdom

(world) all things that cause stumbling and that do iniquity (v.
41)
6. Tares (all things that cause stumbling and that do iniquity)
shall be cast into the furnace of fire and burned up, causing great
sorrow on the part of the devil and his imps (v. 42; see also 2 Peter
3:8-13)
7. The righteous (wheat) will then shine forth as the sun in
the Eternal Kingdom of God (v. 43)
This cannot possibly refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in
A.D. 70 because iniquity and things that cause stumbling have
not ceased – been burned up. It is easy to see that the world
continues to have in it violence, corruption, deceitful teaching,
and all manner of wickedness (just pick up most newspapers,
listen to most radio stations, or watch most television programs).
When the angels of God gather the tares and burn them, sin will
cease on earth – and the earth itself will cease (See 2 Pet 3:8-11).
If anyone thinks that iniquity and false teaching has ceased,
he is oblivious to current events and indisputable facts. Look
around you sin is rampant violence is intense misery abounds
all suffer and hurt persecution continues bombs, blood, mangled
bodies continue to be unambiguous and plain. No, angels have
not yet gathered out the tares.
If anyone thinks we live in a world that is devoid of iniquity
and stumbling, he is blind indeed. A. D. 70 is past and gone and
wickedness and false prophets continue, therefore the events
described in Matt 13:37-43 are yet future.
Acts 1:9
I must assume that friend Preston meant Acts 1:9-11, which

reads:
9 And when he had said these things, as they were

looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out
of their sight.
10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven

as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white
apparel;
11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye

looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up
from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye
beheld him going into heaven.
It is obvious that the ascension of Jesus was not the second,

final, ultimate coming of Jesus. There must be some time interval
between the time of his “going” into heaven and the time of his
“returning” from heaven. The one does not involve the other. He
went away into heaven he will come again in the same way he
left that is visible, evident every eye shall see him and every
tongue shall confess him to be Lord and Christ (Rev 1:7; Phil
2:1-11).
If your question is, Has this happened, the obvious answer is
no – emphatically no!
1 Corinthians 15:23-27
The passage under consideration reads:
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then

they that are Christ’s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the

kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have
abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under
his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
The question is – is this the ultimate coming of Jesus?

Verse 23 refers to the resurrection of Jesus, and to the general

resurrection of all the dead. The resurrection of Jesus occurred in
the first century of the Christian age, and the general resurrection
will take place when Jesus makes his ultimate return to earth
(John 5:28-29). After this – after the resurrection of Jesus, his
ultimate return, and the general resurrection, Paul says “then
cometh the end” (v. 24); it involves the delivering up of the
kingdom to Jehovah, abolishing all rule and authority; and ending
death.
Well, is death no more? Is physical death no more? Is spiritual
death no more? When did death die? The dread of death is
removed and in this sense, Jesus gained a victory over and
abolished death, but people still die a physical death and their
dead-bodies are buried or burned, and people continue to sin and
become spiritually dead in their trespasses. The fact of death has
not yet ended.
Jesus abolished death (2 Tim 1:10), and brought life and
immorality to light through the gospel. He did this by his own
death, resurrection, ascension, and coronation. That is not the end
of the world, nor the ultimate coming of Jesus. It is the beginning
of the present earthly phase of the kingdom of God that will
continue until the ultimate, visible return of Jesus from heaven
to the vicinity of earth. When Jesus comes that last time “the
heavens [atmosphere around the earth] shall pass away with a
great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat,
and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up ...
these things are thus all to be dissolved (2 Peter 3:10-11). All who
have eyes to see know that the atmosphere around the earth has
not passed away, the earth and its works continue not dissolved
nor burned up and can be sure that the ultimate coming of Jesus
to earth has not happened.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, con-

cerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as
the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even

so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring
with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that
we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord,
shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with

a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the
trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with
them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

[End quote].
I emphasize some of the things Paul says would happen at “the

coming of the Lord.” First, the shout of Jesus, the voice of the
archangel, and the sounding of the trump of God. Second, the
risen dead in Christ, and the changed, living saints on earth, shall
be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Third, so
shall the saved ever be with the Lord. This is entry into that
kingdom where flesh and blood cannot go (1 Cor 15:50-58).
“So” is an adverb of manner, meaning in this way, or in this
manner. The statement in verse 17 that “the dead in Christ shall
rise first,” and “those that are alive, that are left” shall together
be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and “so” – in this manner
– that is, in the air – shall the saved ever be with the Lord. There
will be no more living on earth, because the earth is no more,
having been dissolved in fervent heat.
This has not happened. The earth is still here and people are
continuing to live on it. The sainted dead and the living saints
have not been caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air
and ever be with him in the air. Please note that word “ever.”
2 Thessalonians 1:7
7 and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revela-
tion of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his
power in flaming fire,
8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and

to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction

from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and

to be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our
testimony unto you was believed) in that day.
11 To which end we also pray always for you, that our

God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfil
every desire of goodness and every work of faith, with
power;
12 that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in

you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God
and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Here is what Paul says would happen “at the revelation of the
Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming
fire.”
1. Vengeance will be rendered to them that know not God
and obey not the gospel (v. 8)
2. Those who know not God and obey not the gospel shall
suffer “eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the
glory of his might” (v. 9)
3. Jesus will be glorified in his saints (v. 10)
4. The saved will marvel at Jesus (v. 10)
5. ”Every” desire of goodness and “every” work of faith will
be fulfilled (11)
6. Jesus will be glorified in the believers, and believers will

be glorified in Jesus (v. 12)
Them that know not God and obey not the gospel include
Osama Ben Laden and all other terrorists. It is obvious that the
wicked of earth have not suffered “eternal destruction ” They still
swagger and kill the innocent. The six items stipulated above
have not come to pass, and we can therefore be sure that the
punishments and rewards Paul itemizes are in the future – not the
past.
Albert Barnes, in commenting on 2 Thess 1:9, wrote, “It
seems difficult to conceive how anyone can profess to hold that
this passage is a part of the Word of God, and yet deny the
doctrine of future eternal punishment. It would not be possible to
state that doctrine in clearer language than this. It is never is in
clearer language in any creed or confession of faith, and if it is
not true that the wicked will be punished forever, then it must be
admitted that it would not have been possible to reveal the
doctrine in human language!” (Barnes’ Notes on the New Testa-
ment)
Revelation 14:14f 22:12, 20
Rev 14:14-20 says,
“And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud

I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his
head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out from the temple, crying

with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth
thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the
harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the
earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 Another angel came out from the temple, which is in

heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, he that

hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to
him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp
sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for
her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and
gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the
winepress, the great (winepress), of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and

there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the
bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred
furlongs”.
Don Preston’s question is, “Does this passage predict the

ultimate coming of Christ?” This question correctly implies that
the Bible speaks the “coming of Christ” in more than one sense.
So, we begin our answer by noting several ways in which the
Bible speaks of the “coming of Christ,” or its equivalent (coming
of the Lord, coming of Jesus, coming of God, etc).
1. The coming of Christ, may be used of the coming of Jesus
from heaven to earth to be the babe of Bethlehem (Luke 2:7).
Some think of this as the “first” coming of Jesus.
2. The coming of Christ from one location on earth to
another location on earth, as in his coming to Nazareth, or
Jerusalem, or Capernaum, or Bethany (Matt 4:13).
3. A figurative coming of Christ (Matt 16:28; 24:27, 30). It
is basic to an understanding of any literature to consider it as
literal unless the context demands a figurative understanding.
4. The coming of Jesus to the ancient of Days (Dan 7:13-14).
5. The ultimate coming of Jesus from heaven to earth,
sometimes called the second coming, is unto judgment, and
destruction (Matt 24:36-44; 2 Pet 3:8-11).
A failure to distinguish between these various comings of
Jesus, results in confusion. The coming of Rev 14:14-20 is unto
judgment and destruction. It is the final judgment of earth. The
earth was reaped and the wicked cast into the winepress of the
wrath of God.
Revelation 22:12, 20
The two verses read,
Rev 22:12: “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is

with me, to render to each man according as his work is.”
Rev 22:20: “He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I

come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus.”
The two passages refer to the ultimate coming of Jesus to

judgment and destruction. There is a difference in coming
quickly and in coming immediately. The ultimate coming of
Jesus may not happen for 100,000 years, but when he comes it
will be quick, that is fast. When the last trumpet sounds, and the
voice of Jesus and archangel are heard, the atmosphere around
the earth will pass away with a great noise, the earth will be
dissolved in fervent heat and this will happen quickly fast.
Preston’s Question # 3
In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus predicted his coming on the

clouds of heaven in power and great glory. Is this a prediction of
Christ’s Second (i.e. ultimate) coming?
Yes No
If your answer is no, please identify the coming that Jesus was
predicting in these verses, and give your specific contextual and
scriptural reasons for your answer.
Dobbs Answer to Preston’s Question # 3
The answer is no, but to explain the answer fully it is necessary

to analyze Matthew 24, which is sometimes called The Olivet
Discourse, because it was first delivered on Mount Olivet. Luke
21 and Mark 13 record the same lesson in almost the same words
as Matthew 24, but with some additional information.
In parables and other teaching immediately prior to The Olivet
Discourse Jesus spoke of the rejection of Israel as the chosen
people of God and of the destruction of Jerusalem. The city had

been destroyed once before under the force Babylonian might,
and Jesus foretold its second destruction under a Roman army.
Following the first destruction the city was rebuilt and it was
rebuilt following Rome’s raze of the city. It stands today and
continues to be a hotbed of religious strife. Jesus had said of the
Jewish temple that its massive building blocks would be thrown
down and not one stone would be left upon another. Its ruin would
be total. It is in ruins today.
The disciples of Jesus thought this teaching to be incredible,
but supposed their Master had an explanation. Consequently,
when they went out to the Mount of Olives, they asked him about
it. The disciples could not conceive of a time when the Jewish
Temple would not grace the brow of Zion, and wrongly con-
cluded that when the temple was gone the world would also be
gone. The question they put to Jesus was, “Tell us, when shall
these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of
the end of the world?” (Matt 24:3).
The answer Jesus gives in the remainder of the chapter deals
with not one, but two questions. The first having to do with the
razing of Jerusalem and ruination of the Jewish Temple, which
would signify the full end of the Jewish system of religion (as
outlined in the Law of Moses), and the other having to do with
the end of the world and its annihilation.
He answers the first question in verses 4 through 33, and he
answers the second in verses 34 through 51. Even a hasty reading
of Matthew 24 makes evident the two sections of the discourse.
Verses 34 in Matthew 24 is pivotal. Jesus said, “[E]ven so ye
also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even
at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass
away, till all these things be accomplished” (Matt 24:33-34).
“When ye see all these things ” All what things? Well, all the
things Jesus mentioned in verses 4 through 32. Jesus said the
generation that heard him speak would not “pass away, till all
these things be accomplished.” “All these things” happened
within the lifetime of some of the people who heard with their
own ears the teaching of Jesus as it first fell from his lips.
Now we will backtrack and discuss the things Jesus said
would happen in the first century:
1 He mentions specifically false teachers would appear

claiming to be the Christ (Messiah), there would be wars and
rumors of wars, nation would rise against nation, famines and
earthquakes in various places (vv. 5-8). These are signs of noth-
ing. These things will happen as long as the world continues –
every generation will see the repetition of such things. The
conflict of carnal combat – the wrestling against flesh and blood
– would eventually bring a Roman army to the gates of Jerusalem,
and that would mark the beginning of the great travail that would
leave Jerusalem smoking rubble. These things were merely the
beginning of that travail (v. 8).
2 Jesus said false teachers would arise, and the love of many
of the followers of Jesus would become cold (vv. 12-13).
? Those who endured – continued to be faithful – would
escape this unspeakable fracas. The disciples would preach the
gospel of the kingdom in the entire world before the full and final
invalidation of the Sinai covenant (v. 14). A new covenant would
replace the first covenant (Heb 8:8-12; 10:1-9). Jesus took away
the first covenant to establish the second covenant (Heb 10:9).
The new covenant would replace the old covenant. Jesus told his
followers to leave Jerusalem in haste when the mighty army of
Rome descended upon Jerusalem.
3 This was the “abomination of desolation” spoken of by
the prophet Daniel (Dan 9:27; 12:11). To live, they had to flee
(vv. 16-21). The Roman general Titus, on orders of his father the
Emperor Vespasian, laid siege to Jerusalem on the 14th of Nisan,
70 AD, and the city fell 134 days later. The loss of life was
enormous; refugees to Titus gave 600,000 as the number dead
(Josephus, Jewish Wars. V, xiii,7). Jesus called this “the great
tribulation.” There had been nothing like it previously; there has
been nothing like it since. Believers were to leave the city at the
first sign of the approach of the Roman army and get plumb away
from Jerusalem (vv. 15-22).
4 The faithful were to ignore the false claims that Christ had
physically returned to Jerusalem (v. 223-24). Such was not -- and
would never be -- the case. That ignorant report continues to this
day and it continues to be wrong. Jesus warned us against it.
5 False prophets would lead astray, if possible, even the
elect. Jesus said, “Behold, I have told you beforehand” (v. 25).
He repeated the stern warning that saints are not to believe the
wrongheaded claim that Jesus literally returned to Jerusalem at
the time of the abomination of desolation spoken of by the
prophet Daniel – the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem (v. 26). The
Son of God said to us, Do not believe it! Give it no credence! The
report is false – utterly false! Those who circulate it are false
prophets.
6 The great tribulation of AD 70 when Jerusalem fell to the
superior power of Caesar is described by Jesus in prophetic
imagery as the figurative “coming of the Son of man” (v. 27).
Inspired teachers describe times of calamity as being like light-
ening and thunder (Job 37:1-5). “And Jehovah will cause his
glorious voice to be heard, and will show the lighting down of
his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and the flame of a
devouring fire, with a blast, and tempest, and hailstones. For
through the voice of Jehovah shall the Assyrian be dismayed;
with his rod will he smite him” (Isa 30:30-31).
7 We know that Matthew 24:27-30 is figurative because the
literal, ultimate coming of Jesus will provoke the “heavens pass-
ing away with a great noise” and “the earth and the works that
are therein” being burned up (dissolved in fervent heat) (2 Pet
3:8-11). Since that has not happened – the earth is still here, we
must conclude this is figurative, poetic, prophetic imagery.
8 Jesus said, “But immediately after the tribulation of those
days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens shall be shaken” (Matt 24:29). The same type metaphors
and similes are in prophetic writing, as the prophets spoke of the
collapse of world empires. Example: “For the stars of heaven and
the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall
be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her
light to shine” (Isa 13:10), where the prophet speaks of the
“burden of Babylon.” Other examples include Isa 34:4-5, Ezek
32:7-8, Joel 2:30-31 (quoted in Acts 2:19-20).
9 The idea of “coming in the clouds” is also prophetic type
speech signifying a figurative visitation of deity in judgment and
destruction, but not a literal coming (Isa 19:1, Psa 97:2-3, Psa
104:3).
The shaking and removal of Israel as the preferred people of

God is compared to the removal of the natural branches of an
olive tree that the branches of a wild olive tree might be grafted
in (Rom 11:17-22). In the spiritual realm it was a traumatic event
- a tremendous change. The gospel had been preached to every
creature under heaven (Col 1:23). Now the way was open for the
gospel to have free course throughout the earth (Matt 24:31). The
angels (messengers) of God would proclaim “For, All flesh is as
grass , And all the glory thereof as the flower of grass . The grass
withereth, and the flower falleth: But the word of the Lord abideth
for ever. And this is the word of good tidings which was preached
unto you” (1 Peter 1:24-25).
Jesus says, clearly and emphatically, that all these things
would happen within the generation to which he spoke – the first
century generation. Now, he turns to the second question. What
shall be the sign “of the end of the world?” His answer is
unmitigated:
“But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the
angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.
37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming

of the Son of man.
38 For as in those days which were before the flood they

were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in mar-
riage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them
all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
40 Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and

one is left:
41 two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken,

and one is left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your

Lord cometh.
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had

known in what watch the thief was coming, he would
have watched, and would not have suffered his house to
be broken through.
44 Therefore be ye also ready; for in an hour that ye think

not the Son of man cometh (Matt 24:36-44).
Do you, Buster Dobbs, believe and agree that the time of the
Second Coming (i.e. the ultimate coming), of Christ is the time
when all of the martyrs of God will be vindicated / judged /
rewarded?
Yes No
If your answer is “no” please give specific scriptural and
contextual support for your answer.
Dobbs’ Answer to Preston’s Question # 4
It depends on what you mean by “all the martyrs of God.” The

word “martyr” can mean:
somebody who makes sacrifices: somebody who makes sac-
rifices or suffers greatly in order to advance a cause or principle
somebody in pain: somebody who experiences frequent or
constant pain as a result of something
somebody seeking attention: somebody who complains a
great deal in order to get sympathy from others
A martyr can be someone put to death for a cause, or it can
mean someone who is willing to die for his convictions, but who
is unharmed.
The question is too ambiguous to answer.
According to Jesus in Matthew 5:17-18 did all (not just some),

of the Old Testament have to be fulfilled before any of it could
pass away?
Yes No
Matt 5:17-18 reads: “Think not that I came to destroy the law
or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I
say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle
shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be
accomplished.”
Consider the following:
1. Jesus came to fulfil the law or the prophets
2. Jesus did what he came to do
3. Therefore Jesus fulfilled the law or the prophets
That being true, the question is inessential, and therefore
unanswerable, or based on a misunderstanding therefore irrele-
vant.
“The voice of one saying, Cry. And one said, What shall I cry?
All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower
of the field. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth, because the
breath of Jehovah bloweth upon it; surely the people is grass. The
grass withereth, the flower fadeth; but the word of our God shall
stand forever” (Isa 40:6-8).
Please specifically identify “the law” that Paul calls “the

strength of sin” in 1 Corinthians 15:55-56.
Rom 4:15: “for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no
law, neither is there transgression.”
Rom 5:13: “for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is
not imputed when there is no law.”
Rom 7:24-8:2: “Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver
me out of the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus
Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve
the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore
now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. For the

law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law
of sin and of death.”
In your opinion, Buster Dobbs, please identify, to the best of

your ability, the Harlot city Babylon in the book of Revelation.
Since this is not a question, but is asking for a comment, it is

inappropriate. There is no way to answer a non-question. The
word “Babylon” occurs 6 times in the book of Revelation.
Rev 18:2-3 says, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has
become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean
spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean
and detestable beast. For all nations have drunk the wine of the
passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have
committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth
have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.”
At what point of time and with what event were, or will, all
of God’s Old Covenant promises to Old Covenant Israel (be)
fulfilled and His covenant relationship with Old Covenant Israel
terminated? Please specify and give scriptural support for your
answer.
See my answer to Preston’s question # 3
Is physical death the enemy of the child of God, that is today

redeemed and cleansed by the blood of Jesus? Please give sup-
porting scripture for your answer?
Yes No
If your answer is yes, in what way, and for what reason is
physical death the enemy of the child of God, redeemed and
cleansed by the blood of Jesus today? Please give specific scrip-
tural support for your answer.
“And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as one dead. And he
laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and
the last, and the Living one; and I was dead , and behold, I am
alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades”
(Rev 1:18).
When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden,
did they die the very day they ate of that fruit?
Yes No
Yes
Preston’s First Affirmative
Proposition: The Second (ultimate) Coming of Christ (after-
ward parousia, DKP), occurred at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D.
70.
Brother Dobbs believes that 2 Thessalonians 1:7f, is the final
coming of Christ. Correct, brother Dobbs? If therefore, 2 Thes-
salonians 1 was the A.D. 70 parousia, I have proven my propo-
sition.
Fact: Paul was writing, “To the church of the Thessalonians”
(1:1), not to, or about, churches 2000+ years removed.
Fact: The Thessalonians were being persecuted. Paul used the
present participal of thlipsis four times of their suffering.
Fact: The Jews were the instigators of that persecution (Acts
17:1-5; 1 Ths. 2:15f).
Fact: God was going to give the persecutors what the perse-
cutors were giving the Thessalonians, “it is a righteous thing with
God to repay with tribulation (thlipsis), those who are troubling
(present participle of thlipsis), you” (v. 6).
Fact: God was going to give the Thessalonians relief (Greek,
anesis) from that present persecution. Anesis is never reward. It
is invariably relief from whatever pressure is being endured.
Fact: That relief would be given “when the Lord Jesus is
revealed from heaven.”
The Thessalonians would receive relief from persecution,
“when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven (v. 4-7).
To receive relief from that persecution, “when the Lord
Jesus is revealed from heaven,” the Thessalonians would have to
be alive, under persecution, at the time of the Lord’s final coming.
Paul did not say the Thessalonians would die to get relief.
Rest from persecution would come “when the Lord Jesus is
revealed from heaven.”
Paul did say, “to you who are being troubled, rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.”
Questions for Dobbs to answer:
Did Jesus come, in the lifetime of the Thessalonians, and

give them rest from their then present persecution? Yes or No.
Do not evade, or refuse to answer.
Will those first century Thessalonians be under persecution,
by the Jews, at your proposed future coming of Christ?
If Jesus did not come in the lifetime of the Thessalonians,
and give them relief from that present persecution, Paul lied to
them, inspiration fails, Jesus is not Lord.
Fact: The parousia of 2 Thes. 1 would vindicate the suffering
of the Thessalonians and judge their persecutors.
Fact: The suffering of 2 Thessalonians 1:4f was the same
suffering of 1 Thessalonians 2:15f, caused by the same persecu-
tors, i.e. the Jews.
Fact: The persecution being endured was the persecution
foretold by Jesus (Matthew 23:29f; 24:9f; 1 Thessalonians 3:1-3).
Fact: Jesus said the Jews would fill the measure of their sin,
by persecuting his saints (Matthew 23:31-36).
Fact: Jesus said the Jews would be judged for persecuting the
saints, at his coming in judgment, in that generation (Mat. 23:35-
39; 24:29-31).
Fact: By persecuting the Thessalonians, the Jews were filling
the measure of their sin, and were about to be judged. (1 Thes.
2:16).
Fact: The coming of 2 Thessalonians 1 is the judgment of the
persecutors of the Thessalonians.
Fact: The persecutors, and instigators of the persecutions,
were the Jews.
Fact: The Jews were to be judged at the coming of Christ in
A.D. 70. Dobbs agrees.
Since the coming of Christ of 2 Thessalonians 1 is the coming
of Christ against the Jewish persecutors and instigators of the
persecution of the Thessalonians, and since the coming of Christ
against the Jewish persecutors of the saints was to occur in the
judgment of Israel in A.D. 70, this demands that the coming of

Christ of 2 Thessalonians 1, i.e. the final coming of Christ, was
to occur in the judgment of Israel in A.D. 70.
My proposition is proven, unless Dobbs can prove:
That Paul was not writing to and about the living Thessaloni-
ans. Unprovable.
That the Thessalonians were not being persecuted. Unprov-
able.
That the living Thessalonians were not promised relief from
that suffering, “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.”
Unprovable.
That Paul was ignoring the Thessalonian’s suffering to speak
of a far distant generation. Unprovable.
That the suffering, and the judgment, of 2 Thessalonians 1 and
1 Thessalonians 2:15-16 are totally unrelated. Unprovable.
That the suffering, the filling up of the sin, and the judgment
of the persecutors is unrelated to Jesus’ prediction of Matthew
23:29-39. Unprovable.
Dobbs cannot prove any of these things. My proposition is
proven. Unless the Thessalonians are still alive, being persecuted,
the final coming of Christ was in A. D. 70, or else, Paul lied, and
the Bible is not inspired.
Dobbs First Negative
The affirmative is to define the proposition. Inexperience may
have caused friend Preston to overlook this important matter.
His failure allows me to explain what we are discussing.
Don Preston believes that Jesus made an ultimate return to
earth in A.D. 70 when Jerusalem was overrun and razed by a
Roman army.
The Bible says that at Jesus= second, literal coming from
heaven to the vicinity of the earth the following things will occur:
Atmosphere around the earth will pass away with a great
noise Y (2 Pet 3:8-14)
Earth and its elements dissolved with fervent heat Y (Ibid)
Dead will be called out of the tomb Y (John 5:28-29)
Living will be changed Y (1 Cor 15:52-53)
All nations will be gathered before Jesus to be judged Y
(Matt 25:31-46)
Divine promises will be redeemed Y (Rev 21:1-7)
Stars, sun, and moon will disappear into oblivion Y (Rev
6:12-17)
Present heaven and earth will cease and new heaven and
earth appearY (Rev 21)
New Jerusalem will receive the souls of just men made
perfect Y (Rev 21:10-27)
Time will be no more Y there will be no more sea and no
more night Y (Rev 21:25)
Don Preston says all of this occurred 2,000 years ago, and that
we today are in the new heaven and the new earth.
I am reluctant to say so, but I fear that upon reading this
definition of Realized Eschatology reasonable and right-thinking
people will unite to say that it is silly.
Every twinkling star and every rising sun testifies that what
brother Preston teaches is strange and abnormal.
We are to eat the Lord’s Supper, Jesus said, “Until I come.”

If Realized Eschatology is right then we may not observe the
communion today because Jesus has already come.
In the new heaven and earth there will be no marriage rela-
tionships such as we now have Y “in heaven they neither marry
nor are they given in marriage” (Matt 22:29-30).
Yet, brother Preston is married, which makes him contradict
himself.
Jesus warned that at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70
some would say that he had returned the ultimate time, but told
us not to believe that report (Matt 24:23-26).
Don Preston and his cohorts join those who in ancient times
said that the resurrection was past already and overthrew the faith
of some (2 Tim 2:18).
Now, I will answer the only argument offered in the first
affirmative.
Based on 2 Thess 1:7 Preston is of the opinion that for God to
afflict those who were afflicting the Thessalonian saints it would
be necessary for both the afflicted and those inflecting the afflic-
tion to be physically alive on earth at the time of the ultimate
return of Jesus.
This is a materialistic misapprehension, and purely fanciful.
To be is eternal being. The God-given spirit of man never dies.
The flesh may rot, but not the spirit. The spirit of each of us
preserves our personality. Though long dead, Abraham is still
Abraham.
When Jesus returns, though it is 100,000 years from now, he
will call out of the tombs both the good and the bad. Upon his
final return, he will afflict those who afflicted his disciples.
If Preston is right, those who afflicted believers in Thessalo-
nica but who died before A.D. 70, will never be afflicted.
Paul is simply saying that the persecuted people of God in all
ages can rest in the assurance that when Jesus comes the ultimate
time, though it be in the distant future, those who have tormented
them for their faith will be brought to justice.
Your question, brother Preston, is not clear. When you say,
“Did Jesus come?” you will have to explain what coming.
If you are asking, Did Jesus come the second, final, and
ultimate time in the first century, the answer is no.
Brother Preston, you better stay way from the Thessalonian

letters because they were written to correct the idea that the literal,
ultimate return of Jesus was to happen immediately, “let no man
beguile (deceive) you in any wise: for it will not be, except the
falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed.” (2 Thess
2:3).
As long as we have day and night, we can be sure that Jesus
has not made his ultimate return (Rev 21:25).
Preston’s Second Affirmative
The negative should follow the affirmative. Dobbs’s “nega-
tive” was unproven assertions, and sarcasm.
Dobbs: “Upon his final return, he will afflict those who
afflicted his disciples.” The word tribulation (thlipsis), is never
used of hell, as Dobbs believes. Never. Dobbs is redefining
Biblical words.
Dobbs ignores the fact that it was the Jews who were
persecuting the Thessalonians. He ignored my question: At his
final coming, will Jesus cause the Jews to be persecuted, as they
were persecuting the Thessalonians?
Dobbs ignored the fact that Paul wrote to living humans,
being persecuted, “to you who are being troubled.” Per Dobbs,
Paul offered the Thessalonians not one word of promise of relief
from their suffering. Instead, Paul ignored their suffering, and
told them that some distant generation of Christians would re-
ceive relief from their persecution. This perverts the emphatic
statements of the text. This mocks the suffering of the Thessalo-
nians.
The Thessalonians, (“to you who are being troubled”),
would receive relief (anesis), from persecution, “when the Lord
Jesus is revealed” (v. 4-7). Anesis is relief, never reward.
To receive relief from that persecution, “when the Lord
Jesus is revealed,” the Thessalonians would have to be alive,
under persecution, at the time of the Lord’s coming.
I asked: “Did Jesus come, in the lifetime of the Thessalo-
nians, and give them rest from their then present persecution?
Yes or No.”
Dobbs said the question “is not clear,” and did not “explain
what coming.” Dobbs is desperate. My question related to 2
Thessalonians 1, the final coming. He is obfuscating.
The parousia in 2 Thessalonians 1 is the final coming

(Dobbs).
But the parousia in 2 Thessalonians 1 would give the
Thessalonians relief from their on-going persecution.
The parousia of 2 Thessalonians 1 did not occur (Dobbs).
Therefore, Paul’s promise of 2 Thessalonians 1 failed. Paul
is a false prophet.
Argument: (Dobbs ignored this argument. I will modify and

repeat).
Jesus: All the righteous martyrs would be judged and
avenged at his coming in the judgment of Israel in his generation
(Matthew 23:29-39).
The Thessalonian Christians were suffering at the hands of
the Jews (Acts 17:1-5; 1 Thes. 2:15-17; 2 Thes. 1:4f).
Paul promised vindication and relief for the living Thessa-
lonian saints suffering for Christ, at Christ’s (final) coming (2
Thessalonians 1:4-10).
Therefore, the final coming of Christ of 2 Thessalonians 1
was in the judgment of Israel in A.D. 70.
Jesus said the Jews would fill the measure of their sin, by
persecuting his saints (Matthew 23:31-36), and be judged at his
parousia, in his generation (Matthew 23:29-36).
Paul said the Jews were filling the measure of their sin by
persecuting the Thessalonians, and were about to be judged, at
the final coming of the Lord (1 Thes. 2:15-17; 2 Thes. 1:4-10).
Therefore, the coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1, was
Christ’s parousia in judgment of Israel in A.D. 70, for persecuting
the righteous.
Re-framed, the argument is:
The parousia of 2 Thessalonians 1 is the judgment of the
persecutors of the Thessalonians.
The persecutors (and instigators of the persecutions) were the
Jews (Acts 17:1-5; 1 Thes. 2:15-17), who were to be judged at
Christ’s coming in A.D. 70 (Matthew 23:29-39).
Therefore, the (final) coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1
was the coming of Christ in A.D. 70.
Dobbs has ignored my arguments, and denied the inspired
text.
The following facts are irrefutable:

It was the Thessalonians being persecuted.
It was the Jews persecuting and instigating that persecution.
Jesus had foretold that persecution (Matthew 23:29f).
Jesus was coming in judgment of Israel for that persecution,
in the first century.
The persecution and promise of soon coming judgment in
1 Thessalonians 2:15-17 was the same persecution and promise
of soon coming judgment and vindication promised by Jesus for
A. D. 70 (Matthew 23:29f).
The persecution and promise of soon coming judgment in
2 Thessalonians 1 was the same persecution and promise of soon
coming judgment as 1 Thessalonians 2:15-17.
It therefore follows, inexorably, that the soon coming
parousia of 2 Thessalonians 1, the final coming, was the coming
of Christ in A.D. 70.
Dobbs believes that 2 Thessalonians 1, 1 Corinthians 15, 1
Thessalonians 4:13f, 2 Peter 3, Revelation 20-21 all speak of the
same (final) coming of Christ. It therefore follows that all of these
prophecies were fulfilled in A.D. 70.
Paul’s promise to the Thessalonians, “to you who are being
troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed,” was
fulfilled. Christ’s final coming was in A.D. 70.
Dobbs’ Second Negative
Preston says the Greek word thlipsis (affliction) is never used
of hell. Never?
Preston overlooks the fact that some in Thessalonica who
afflicted believers died before A. D. 70. Yet, Paul wrote, Aif so
be that it is righteous thing with God to recompense affliction
(thlipsis) to them that afflict (thlibousin) you@ (2 Thess 1:6).
Since these afflicters did not receive affliction in this life, the
affliction had to come after this life, or not at all.
The verses immediately following refer to the ultimate, literal
coming of Jesus.
“and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of
the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in
flaming fire, rendering vengeance to them that know not God,
and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: who shall
suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the
Lord and from the glory of his might.” (2 Thess 1:7-10).
Preston says Jesus literally returned to earth when a Roman
army destroyed Jerusalem (A.D. 70).
He claims this fulfilled all prophecy and redeemed every
promise of God.
When the Romans razed Jerusalem and slaughtered the people
that was a figurative Acoming of the Lord.
Preston mistakenly thinks the destruction of Jerusalem was a
literal, final coming of God.
I repeat a point made in my first response, which Preston did
not find it convenient to notice: At the ultimate return, Jesus will
literally terminate the sky, earth, sun, moon, stars, and sea and
the earth and its works shall melt with fervent heat.
There will be no night in eternity because there will be no sun
and stars.
The unceasing glory of God will be its light. This is confirmed

by 2 Pet 2:8-12, Rev 6:12-17, and Rev 21:1-27.
Every twinkling star, every dark night, and every rolling wave
testify that what Preston teaches is false.
Two stubborn facts correct all that Preston says in his second
affirmative:
1. The figurative return of Jesus in A. D. 70 was to Jerusa-
lem. The Thessalonians, many miles away, were unscathed.
2. The destruction of Jerusalem did not stop, but intensified
the persecution of Christians.
The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 did not end persecu-
tion. That fact screams the truth that Preston is enormously
wrong.
Preston will doubtlessly continue to ignore this reasoning.
Amazingly, Preston claims Jesus taught, “all righteous mar-
tyrs would be judged and avenged at his coming in the judgment
of Israel in his generation (sic).” Preston is referencing the
destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
All righteous martyrs?
Persecution continued uninterrupted for two hundred years
following the destruction of Jerusalem ... Nero’s persecution –
Domitian’s persecution (extremely vicious).
It was not until the days of Constantine -- 200 years after the
destruction of Jerusalem -- that savage-persecution of Christians
abated.
Persecution of the godly continues to this day (2 Tim 3:12).
A Christian receives relief from persecution upon his physical
death -- when he is comforted in the bosom of Abraham.
Preston, to support his false claim that Jesus in A. D. 70 made
an ultimate, literal return, appeals to Matthew 24. In this passage,
Jesus warned that some would teach that at the destruction of
Jerusalem, he literally returned to earth.
Jesus told his disciples not to be deceived by this lie.
“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and
shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if
possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you beforehand. If
therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness;
go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not”
(Matt 24:24-26).
If, 2,000 years later, someone makes the same claim of 1st
century false prophets, these words of Jesus brand him a false
teacher.
Believe him not!
Preston makes the mistake of not recognizing that in Matthew
24 Jesus is answering two questions: (1) when will Jerusalem be
destroyed?, and (2) when will the world be destroyed? Verse 34
is the turning point. Everything before verse 34 refers to the
destruction of Jerusalem, and everything after verse 34 refers to
the end of the world. Jerusalem was destroyed; the world was not
destroyed Y yet.
Preston shamefully straddles the two concepts.
If the ultimate, literal return of Jesus was in A.D. 70, and the
resurrection of the dead occurred, why eat the Lord’s Supper and
marry? (1 Cor 11:26; Matt 22:28-31).
Preston’s Third Affirmative
Dobbs redefines thlipsis, claiming: “some in Thessalonica
who afflicted believers died before A. D. 70. Yet, Paul wrote, it
is righteous thing with God to recompense affliction (thlipsis) to
them that afflict (thlibousin) you.’Since these afflicters did not
receive affliction in this life, the affliction had to come after this
life or not at all.”
Dobbs ignores the fact that it was the Jews persecuting the
church.
The Jewish persecutors would receive what they were giving
the Thessalonians. Dobbs says the persecutors were to receive
hell. Were the Jewish persecutors sending the Thessalonians to
hell?
Dobbs radically redefines thlipsis in the same verse.
Dobbs ignores the text, “to those who are troubling you.” The
troublers had to be alive at the parousia. If they were not alive,
they were not troubling the Thessalonians. Paul didn’t say, “to
give to those who troubled you.” Dobbs distorts the text.
Dobbs ignores the fact that the persecuted, the persecutors,
and the impending judgment in 2 Thessalonians 1 is the same as
1 Thessalonians 2:15f, and the connection with Matthew 23.
Dobbs says that A.D. 70 did not end persecution. Wrong. The
persecuting Jews did become the persecutedBjust as Paul prom-
ised. Their systematic persecution of the church was broken.
Dobbs, violating the text, makes the Thessalonians persecu-
tors Roman, not Jewish.
Dobbs claims, “Christian receives relief from persecution
upon his physical death.” This is not what Paul promised. Paul
promised the Thessalonians that their relief would come, “when
the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.” Dobb’s obfuscation
cannot change the divine words.
Dobbs complains that I do not follow his comments on 2 Peter

3. He is the negative, bound to follow me. 2 Peter 3 (and Matthew
24-25), and 2 Thessalonians 1. So, to prove my point on 2
Thessalonians 1 falsifies Dobbs on other texts. I may, or may
not, address 2 Peter affirmatively, but my book, The Elements
Shall Melt With Fervent Heat, proves my case definitively.
More affirmative.
Paul’s resurrection doctrine, thus, 2 Thessalonians 1, was “the
hope of Israel” (Acts 26:6f), from the Old Covenant (Acts
24:14ff).
2 Thessalonians 1:9 is a direct quotation of the LXX of Isaiah
2:10, 19. Israel would be punished, Afrom the presence of the
Lord and from the glory of His power.”
Isaiah foretold the last days (2:2), coming of Jehovah (2:9-11;
19-21). The “Day” would be a time of famine (3:1f), and warfare
when Israel’s men would fall by the sword (3:25-26). The
“Branch,” Messiah, would come, and the blood guilt of Jerusalem
would be removed “by the spirit of fire and the spirit of judgment”
(4:1-4).
In the last days parousia of Isaiah 2-4 Israel would be judged
for shedding innocent blood, and would be cast, “from the
presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power” (LXX,
Isaiah 2:10, 19).
In the last days parousia of 2 Thessalonians 1, Israel would
judged for shedding innocent blood, and would be cast, “from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power” (1
Thessalonians 2:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 1:4-10).
The last days judgment of Israel for shedding innocent blood
was at Christ’s coming in A.D. 70 (Matthew 23:29-39)
Therefore, the last days fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 1,
Christ’s ultimate coming, was in the judgment of Israel in A.D.
70.
In Luke 23:28-31 Jesus applied Isaiah 2:10a, 19a, to the
impending judgment of Jerusalem for her guilt in killing him (and
of course his saints, Matthew 23:29f).
Paul, quotes Isaiah 2:10b, 19b, to predict the judgment of the
Jewish persecutors of the Thessalonians.
2 Thessalonians 1 is the prediction of the final coming of the
Lord.
Unless Paul applied Isaiah 2:9f, 19f radically differently than

Jesus, then since Jesus applied Isaiah 2:9, 19 to the A.D. 70
parousia, this demands that 2 Thessalonians 1 predicted the A.D.
70 parousia.
Only one people had ever dwelt in the presence of the Lord,
i.e. Old Covenant Israel.
Isaiah 2-4 foretold the casting out of Israel “from the presence
of the Lord” for shedding innocent blood (Isaiah 2:9, 19f; 4:1-4).
2 Thessalonians 1 foretold the casting out of the Jewish

persecutors of the saints, “from the presence of the Lord.”
Jesus said Israel would be judged for killing the saints, at his
A.D. 70 parousia.
Therefore, Israel was cast out “from the presence of the Lord”
at the ultimate coming of the Lord in A.D. 70.
My proposition stands proven, the ultimate coming of Christ
was the A. D. 70 judgment of Israel.
Dobbs’ Third Negative
Preston teaches Jesus made his final return to earth in A. D.
70 -- when a Roman army destroyed Jerusalem. He believes the
heavens passed away with a great noise, fervent heat dissolved
the earth, stars and sun and sea vanished (the new heaven and
new earth appeared) about 2,000 years ago.
His proposition is so patently false that to simply state it in
clear language refutes it.
We know brother Preston is sadly mistaken because the Bible
emphatically says:
1. Upon Jesus ultimate return to earth the sea, sun, and stars
will be no more (Rev. 6:12-14; Rev. 22:5; Rev. 21:1). The new
heaven and new earth will have the unsetting glory of God for its
only light, and, consequently, Athere shall be no night there@
(Rev. 21:25). Time will be no more.
2. We continue to have sea, sun, stars, and night.
3. Therefore, Preston’s position is wrong.
We show somebody to be in error by providing contrary
evidence. This is the law of non-contradiction. It is not necessary
to examine each point of an argument to answer that argument.
All one has to do is prove the affirmative’s conclusion disagrees
with established truth.
At the final return of Jesus to earth, all persecution will cease
(whether Jewish, or Gentile), and the saints will be gathered to
endless glory B this has not happened, therefore, the ultimate
return of Jesus has not happened.
2 THESS 1:6-8
6 [I]f so be that it is righteous thing with God to recom-

pense affliction to them that afflict you,
7 and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revela-
tion of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his
power in flaming fire,
8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and

to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction

from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and

to be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our
testimony unto you was believed) in that day.
Paul says God will afflict Athem that afflict you. Afflict
means suffer, or punish.
Paul also tells us when God will afflict those who persecute
the saints -- at the ultimate return of Jesus (which we know has
not happened because the sun, stars, sea, and night remain, but
will cease when Jesus comes in judgment the ultimate time).
When Jesus comes in flaming fire with the angels of his power
to render vengeance to them that “know not God” and “obey not
the gospel,” the enemies of the cross, whether Jews or Gentiles,
“shall suffer punishment (affliction), even eternal destruction
(affliction) from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might.”
Those who afflicted believers in Thessalonica were not af-

flicted in the first century -- not even at the destruction of
Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The people in Macedonia were untouched
by the war in Judea. Jesus did not come to them in “flaming fire”
and with “the angels of his power” in the first century. Their life
was undisturbed by the conflict in Jerusalem. The promised
recompense therefore must be at a future time of judgment.
All creditable historians agree that the violent, physical per-
secution of professing Christians continued long after Rome
reduced Jerusalem to rubble. The truth is that persecution of the
saved has not ceased to this day. “Yea, and all that would live
godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” (2 Tim 3:12).
Got it?
Based on the indisputable fact that sun, stars, and night

continue, we know Preston’s attempt to connect Isaiah 2 and
Second Thess 1 with the ultimate return of Jesus to earth is off
beam.
Having destroyed the foundation of Preston’s theory, the
superstructure is a heap. It is not necessary to examine the rubble
brick by brick.
PROVE IT
Preston wrote, “2 Thessalonians 1:9 is a direct quotation of
the LXX of Isaiah 2:10, 19.” We call on him for proof.
A reference given for comparative purposes is not the same
as “direct quotation.” Similarity is not identity.
There is a difference between the end of the Jewish economy
in A.D. 70, and in the ultimate return of Jesus when sun, stars,
sea, and earth will be no more.
The two events may be compared, but comparison is not
identity.
Two things may be similar and comparable, but not identical.
Preston’s Fourth Affirmative
Buster’s desperation is showing. He knows that if 2 Thessa-

lonians 1 is A.D. 70, that this falsifies his posit on 2 Peter 3. But,
he simply claims, with no exegesis, Peter predicts a future event.
In spite of Dobbs’ protestations, the facts remain:
Paul wrote to living Christians, being persecuted.
They were being persecuted by the Jews, as foretold by Jesus.
Paul said those “being troubled” would receive relief from
that tribulation, “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.”
The Thessalonians had to be alive, under tribulation, in order to
receive relief from tribulation, at the parousia.
Their Jewish persecutors would receive what they were giving
the Thessalonians.
At Christ’s A.D. 70 coming, the Jews did become the perse-
cuted. Their organized persecution was broken.
Unbelievably, Dobbs claims: “Those who afflicted believers
in Thessalonica were not afflicted in the first century – not even
at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.”
This would mean:
The Jews were persecuting the Thessalonians.
But the Jewish persecutors of the Thessalonians were not
afflicted in the first century (Dobbs).
Therefore, the Jews were not afflicted in the first century!!
Upon whom then, did the Great Tribulation (thlipsis, Mt.
24:21) come, and why?
Dobbs knows that Israel was afflicted for persecuting the
saints, at Christ’s coming, in A.D. 70!
Jesus said “all the righteous blood shed on the earth” would
be avenged at his A.D. 70 judgment of Israel (Mt. 23:33-36).
The Jews were persecuting the Thessalonians.
Paul said that the Jewish persecutors were to be judged at

Christ’s coming.
Therefore, the Jewish persecutors of the Thessalonians, those
who shed “all the righteous blood shed on the earth” would be
judged at Christ’s coming in judgment in A.D. 70.
Dobbs asks for proof that 2 Thess. 1:9 quotes the LXX of
Isaiah 2.
Virtually all critical sources agree on this.
Further, Dobbs knows that Isaiah foretold the last days. Thus,
Isaiah 2:9f is the prophecy of the last days parousia. There is no
2700 year gap between vss. 2-4 and verses following.
Isaiah, and Paul in Thessalonians, foretold last days events.
Isaiah, and Paul in Thessalonians, foretold the judgment of
Israel in the last days.
Isaiah, and Paul in Thessalonians, foretold the judgment of
Israel, at the Day of the Lord, for shedding innocent blood.
Isaiah, and Paul, citing Isaiah in Thessalonians, said Israel
would be cast from the presence of the Lord at the Day of the
Lord, for shedding innocent blood.
This is not mere similarity. The time, people, theme, and
words are the same. This is identicality.
Only one people had ever dwelt in the presence of the Lord,
i.e. Old Covenant Israel.
Isaiah 2-4 foretold the casting out of Israel “from the presence
of the Lord” for shedding innocent blood (Isaiah 2:9, 19f; 4:1-4).
2 Thessalonians 1 foretold the casting out of the Jewish
persecutors of the saints, “from the presence of the Lord.”
Jesus said Israel would be judged for killing the saints, at his
A.D. 70 parousia.
Therefore, Israel was cast out “from the presence of the Lord”
at the A.D. 70 parousia.
Paul said those “who do not obey the gospel” would be cast
out at Christ’s parousia. Peter said: “The time (to kairos) has
come for the judgment (to krino) to begin, and if it begins with
us first, what shall the end be of those who do not obey the
gospel?” (1 Peter 4:17).
Peter used the definite article with kairos. Kairos means
appointed time. Same with “the judgment.” Thus, “the appointed
time for the judgment has arrived.”
Paul said those not obeying the gospel, the Jewish persecutors
of the Thessalonians’, would be judged at Christ’s parousia
Peter said the appointed time had come to judge those who
did not obey the gospel.
Therefore, the appointed time had come for the (Thessalo-
nian) judgment parousia of Christ!
Peter said the appointed time for the judgment of those who
had not obeyed the gospel had arrived. He said Christ was, “ready
(hetoimos), to judge the living and the dead” (v. 5); “the end of
all things has drawn near” (eggiken, perfect tense, v. 7).
Was Peter wrong to say the time had arrived (drawn near), for
the appointed time (Acts 17:30-31), for the judgment?
Dobbs believes Peter was wrong! The “appointed time for the
judgment” had not arrived!
Dobbs is wrong.
Bro. Dobbs, upon whom did the Great Tribulation (thlipsis,
Mt. 24:21) come, and why?
Did Jesus come in judgment of Israel, for persecuting the
saints, in A.D. 70?
Dobbs’ Fourth Negative
My opponent claims Paul taught persecuted saints in Thessa-

lonica would be "relieved" from tribulation in A. D. 70. He
disregards the facts of history, which tell us the persecution of
the church continued long after A.D. 70.
Preston says this means the very people who were persecuted
and the very people who did the persecuting would, (1) in their
earthly lifetime, (2) in Thessalonica, (3) be afflicted while on
earth. But that is not what Paul said.
Paul wrote, "and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the
revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his
power in flaming fire, rendering vengeance to them that know
not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
who shall suffer punishment, (even) eternal destruction from the
face of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he shall
come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all
them that believed (because our testimony unto you was be-
lieved) in that day" (2 Thess 1:7-10)..
There is nothing in Paul’s statement requiring punishment
within the earthly lifetime of the afflicted. Nothing!
Isaiah
Preston claimed Paul quoted directly from Isaiah, but refused

to document his statement. His response was, "Everybody knows
that."
2 Peter 3:8-12
Preston brushed off our arguments on 2 Peter 3, saying, "I

answered that in a booklet I wrote some time ago."
The stubborn fact is: sun, moon, stars, earth, and night are still
here. Jesus has not returned the ultimate time for the simple
reason that infallible revelation tells us all these things will cease
when Jesus literally comes the last time Y and "there shall be no
night" (Rev 21:25).
Matthew 24
Jesus Olivet discourse (Matt 24) begins when the disciples of

Jesus came to him with two questions: (1) When will Jerusalem
be destroyed (2) what will be the sign of thy coming and the end
of the world (Matt 24:2-3).
Jesus answered the first question, saying, wars, rumors of
wars, famines, earthquakes, persecution of the godly, and false
teachers would continue as long as the world stands (Matt 24:-6-
13). They are signs of nothing. "The end is not yet" (v. 6).
The end of what?
"The end," in scripture, can refer to the end of (1) Edenic bliss,
(2) the world compacted out of water and amidst water, (3)
authority of Mosaic Law, (4) end of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, (5)
end of all things material and termination of time, sun, stars, and
night.
When you see a reference to the "end," you must ask, "What
end?"
Jesus speaks of the abomination of desolation spoken of by
Daniel standing in the Holy Place (Matt 24:14-15).
Jesus told his disciples to get out of Jerusalem taking only the
clothes on their backs (Matt 24:16-22).
When they saw the "abomination of desolation" standing in
the Holy Place (Jerusalem compassed with armies" -- Luke
21:20), "then shall the end come" (Matt 24:14). What end? Not
the end of the universe because the birds still fly, the sun still
shines, and there is still night. It was the end of something Y Since
it was not the end of the universe, it must have been the fulfillment
of Jesus prophecy that the time would come when the great
building blocks of the Jewish Temple would be cast down (Matt
24:2).
Now, here is the deathblow to "realized" eschatology.
Jesus said at the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70 by Titus’
army, if any one says to you that this signifies the ultimate return
of Jesus "believe him not."
Here are the exact words of Jesus:
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ,
or, Here; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall
show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible,
even the elect.
Behold, I have told you beforehand.
If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the
wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers;
believe it not" (Matt 24:23-26).
Jesus warned his disciples that lying prophets would attempt
to deceive them; claiming Jesus made a literal and ultimate return
to earth in A. D. 70.
When Don Preston, 2,000 years later, makes the claim that
Jesus returned to earth when Jerusalem was destroyed by the
Romans in A. D. 70, should we believe him?
Preston’s Fifth Affirmative
Dobbs criticizes, but does not refute. He ridicules me for not

following him on 2 Peter 3. I am the affirmative, he the negative.
He is to follow me, which he fails, badly, to do. He has not, once,
examined one of my syllogisms, and tried to prove my proposi-
tions wrong.
Argument:
Jesus- Old Covenant Jerusalem killed the prophets, Jesus, and

his apostles and prophets (Matthew 23:29f; Luke 11:49f).
Paul- Old Covenant Jerusalem killed the prophets, Jesus, and
was persecuting the apostles and prophets of Jesus (1 Thess.
2:15f; 2 Thess. 1:4f).
John- The city Babylon had killed the prophets (16:6f), Jesus
(11:8), and Jesus, apostles and prophets (18:20, 24).
Therefore, Babylon was O. T. Jerusalem.
Argument:
The coming of Christ in judgment of Babylon (Rev. 14, 16,

18-19) is the ultimate coming of Christ. (Dobbs). .
But, Babylon of Revelation was O. T. Jerusalem.
Therefore, the ultimate coming of Christ was in the judgment
of O. T. Jerusalem.
Argument:
The coming of Christ in judgment of Babylon is the judgment

of the city that killed the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles and
prophets of Jesus (Rev. 16:6f; 11:8; 18:20, 24). True or False,

bro. Dobbs? Please answer!
The city guilty of killing the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles
and prophets of Jesus was Old Covenant Jerusalem. True or
False? Please answer!
Therefore, the ultimate coming of Christ in Revelation was
Christ’s coming in judgment of O.T. Jerusalem. True or False?
Please answer!
Argument:
Jesus: Old Covenant Jerusalem had killed the O. T. prophets.

True or False?
Jesus: Old Covenant Jerusalem would kill Jesus & prophets
(Luke 11:49f). True or False?
Jesus: It was not possible that a prophet perish outside of
Jerusalem (Luke 13:31f).True or False?
John: Babylon of Revelation had killed the O. T. prophets
(16:6f), and was persecuting the prophets of Jesus (18:20, 24).
True or False?
Therefore, Babylon of revelation was Old Covenant Jerusa-
lem. True or False?
Argument:
Jesus: O.T. Jerusalem had killed the prophets, would kill Jesus
and his apostles, and would fill the measure of her sin, in Jesus’
generation (Matthew 23:29-34).
Paul: O.T. Jerusalem had killed the prophets, Jesus and his
apostles, and was filling the measure of her sin (1 Thess. 2:15f)
John: Babylon of Revelation had killed the prophets, Jesus
and his apostles, and had filled the measure of her sin (Rev. 17:6f;
18:5).
Therefore, Babylon of Revelation was O. T. Jerusalem.
Argument:
Jesus: Christ was coming on the clouds, in his generation, in

judgment of O.T. Jerusalem when her cup of sin was full for
killing the prophets, Jesus and his apostles (Mt. 24:29-34)
John: Christ was coming on the clouds, soon, in judgment of
Babylon, because her cup of sin was full for killing the prophets,
Jesus and his apostles (Rev. 22:10-12).
Therefore, the coming of Christ in Revelation, the ultimate
coming, was the A.D. 70 coming of Christ against O. T. Jerusa-
lem for filling her cup of sin for killing the prophets, Jesus and
his apostles.
Argument:
Babylon of Revelation was Old Covenant Jerusalem.

The coming of Christ in judgment of Babylon is the ultimate
coming of Christ (Dobbs).
Jesus would come in judgment of Jerusalem for killing the O.
T. prophets, and Jesus= prophets, in A.D. 70 (Matthew 23:34f;
24:29-34). Dobbs agrees!
Jesus would come in judgment of Babylon, quickly, shortly,
for killing the O. T. prophets, and Jesus= prophets (Rv. 22:6,
10-12).
Therefore, the ultimate coming of Christ was His A.D. 70
judgment of Jerusalem for killing the O. T. prophets and His
prophets.
This agrees with what we have seen already:
The persecution of the Thessalonians, and the persecutors (the
Jews), were the same in 1 Thessalonians 2:15f and 2 Thess. 1:4f.
Christ was coming in judgment of the Jewish persecutors of
His saints, in the A.D. 70 parousia.
The coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1 is the ultimate
coming of Christ in judgment of the persecutors of the Thessalo-
nians (the Jews).
Therefore, the coming of Christ to judge the persecutors of
the Thessalonians was the A.D. 70 parousia.
Brother Dobbs, please answer the following RE: Matthew

22:1-14:
Whose wedding is represented?
Who had been invited, but spurned the invitation?
Who had mistreated the servants announcing the wedding?
To what city and what event did Jesus refer in Matthew 22:7
when the Master of the wedding sent out His army and burnt the
city of those who had rejected the wedding invitation?
Dobbs cannot refute any of these arguments. My proposition
is proven
Dobbs’ Fifth Negative
Introduction
Preston’s opening argument in his 5th affirmative is:

Jesus- Old Covenant Jerusalem killed the prophets, Jesus, and
Paul- Old Covenant Jerusalem killed the prophets, Jesus, and
2:15f; 2 Thess. 1:4f)(sic).
John- The city Babylon had killed the prophets (16:6f)(sic),
Jesus (11:8)(sic), and Jesus’ apostles and prophets (18:20,
24)(sic).
The argument is incoherent and therefore a non-argument. I
refuse to guess at what Preston is trying to say.
"Go Ye And Learn What This Meaneth"
"In vain is the net spread in the sight of any bird"
Similarity is not identity
"Realized Eschatology"
Preston, in advocating a theory he calls "realized eschatol-

ogy," says Jesus made his ultimate return to earth in AD 70.
Preston claims that at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70:
1. the world ended;
2. the resurrection of all the dead occurred;
3. the judgment described in Matthew 25:31-46 happened,
4. all promises and prophecies of inspired scripture were
kept and fulfilled
If he disclaims any of these, let him say so.
Response
To disprove the claims of the advocates of "realized eschatol-

ogy" it is not necessary to respond to every point in their convo-
luted thinking.
All one need do is demonstrate their conclusions are contrary
to common sense and Holy Scripture.
If the bottom-line of the "realized-eschatology-theory" is
against what our eyes see and the Bible teaches, it is, therefore,
wrong.
Preston’s notion that I must follow him down every blind alley
is fanciful. He may not like the way I answer him, but reasonable
people know that he is answered and his position is refuted.
Matt 13:40-42
Matt 13:40-42 cannot possibly refer to the destruction of

Jerusalem in A.D. 70 because iniquity continues ... violence,
corruption, deceitful teaching, and wickedness.
When the angels of God gather the tares and burn them, sin
will cease (See Rev 21:8).
Sin has not ceased, but is rampant . . . violence is intense .
. . persecution continues . . . bombs, blood, mangled bodies
are unambiguous and plain.
Angels have not gathered out the tares.
Therefore -- advocates of Arealized eschatology" are wrong.
Anyone who thinks we live in a world devoid of iniquity is
blind and foolish.
1. AD 70 is long past
2. Wickedness and false prophets continue;
3. Conclusion: the events described in Matt 13:37-43 did
not happen in AD 70, but are future.
1 Thess 4:13-18
Notice some of the things Paul says will happen at “the

[ultimate] coming of the Lord"
- The shout of Jesus.
- The voice of the archangel.
- The trump of God.
- The risen dead in Christ caught up in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air and “so" shall the saved ever be with the Lord.
“So" is an adverb of manner, meaning in this way.
The statement (verse 17) that “the dead in Christ" and the
saved on earth shall Atogether" be caught up to meet the Lord in
the air, and Aso" -- in this manner (in the air) -- shall they ever
be with the Lord is indisputably something that has not yet come.
When Jesus comes living on earth shall be no more, because
the earth will be no more (2 Pet 3:8-11). The saved will Aever be
with the Lord" in the air. This is clearly still in the future.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
"At the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the
angels of his power in flaming fire."
1. Vengeance will be rendered to unbelievers and the dis-
obedient (v. 8)
2. The wicked shall suffer “eternal destruction from the
Lord and from the glory of his might" (v. 9)
3. Jesus will be glorified in his saints (v. 10)
4. The saved will marvel at Jesus (v. 10)
5. “Every" desire of goodness and “every" work of faith will
be fulfilled (11)
6. Jesus will be glorified in the believers, and believers will
be glorified in Jesus (v. 12)
The wicked still swagger and kill the innocent.
The six items stipulated above have not happened -- yet.
We can be sure the punishments and rewards Paul itemizes
are still in the future.
Matt 22:1-14
Here are answers to Preston’s questions on the above verse:

The son of a certain king
Some of the original invitees
The king’s armies
The city of those who had insulted the king and his son
Preston’s Sixth Affirmative
Brother Dobbs has capitulated. His last is one of the worst

“negatives” I have ever seen offered in debate. I made eight
affirmative arguments, asking for direct answers. He ignored
everything, claiming one argument was “incoherent.” He claims
he has no responsibility to respond!
I offered;
Jesus– Old Covenant Jerusalem killed the prophets, Jesus, and
Paul– Old Covenant Jerusalem killed the prophets, Jesus, and
2:15f; 2 Thess. 1:4f).
John– The city Babylon had killed the prophets (Rev. 16:6f),
Jesus (11:8), and Jesus’ apostles and prophets (18:20, 24).
Dobbs says this is incoherent, and “similarity is not identity.”
Challenge:
Buster, did Babylon of Revelation kill the prophets (Rev.
16:6f)? Yes or No?
Is Babylon of Revelation where the Lord was slain (Rev.
11:8)? Yes or No?
Did Babylon of Revelation kill the apostles and prophets of
Jesus (Rev. 18:20, 24)? Yes or No?
PLEASE ANSWER!!
If Babylon of Revelation did these things, then it is not mere
similarity with Matthew 23, 1 Thessalonians 2:15f, it is identity.
And, Dobbs knows his futurism is doomed. Thus, he refused to
answer a single argument.
Dobbs says Matthew 13:40-42 refutes Preston. Wrong, it
affirms!
Christ would come at the end of the age (Mt. 13:40-42).
At the end of the age the righteous will shine forth as the sun
(v. 43). This is taken directly from Daniel 12:3!
But, the righteous would shine forth, “when the power of the
holy people is completely shattered” (Daniel 12:7).
Buster, tell us plainly: when was the power of the holy people
completely shattered? Do not evade!
PLEASE ANSWER!
Affirmative:
Daniel 12:2 foretold the resurrection. Matthew 13:39f fore-

told the resurrection.
Daniel 12:3: the righteous would shine. Matthew 13:43: (cit-
ing Daniel) the righteous would shine.
Daniel 12:4 foretold the end of the age. Matthew 13:39f
foretold the end of the age.
Daniel 12:6-7 says “all of these things” would be fulfilled,
“when the power of the holy people is completely shattered.”
Jesus’ prediction of his coming and the end of the age would be
when Daniel 12:3 was fulfilled.
Thus, Jesus’ prediction of his coming, the resurrection, and
the end of the age would be fulfilled when “the power of the holy
people is completely shattered.”
Buster, tell us, when was the power of the holy people com-
pletely shattered?
Unless Buster can prove, definitively, that Jesus was not
predicting what Daniel predicted, this proves that Matthew
13:39f was to be fulfilled “when the power of the holy people is
completely shattered.”
If you claim “similarity is not identity,” then tell us:
Is the resurrection of Daniel 12:2 different than the resurrec-
tion of Matthew 13?
What is the difference between the righteous shining, in
Daniel 12, and Matthew 13?
Is “the end” in Daniel 12:4 different than“the end” in Matthew
13?
PLEASE ANSWER!!
Since Dobbs refused to answer my previous arguments, I will

repeat, seeking direct answers.
Argument:
The (ultimate) coming of Christ in judgment of Babylon is the

judgment of the city that killed the prophets, Jesus, and the
apostles and prophets of Jesus (Rev. 16:6f; 11:8; 18:20, 24). True
or False? If false, prove your case!
The city guilty of killing the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles
and prophets of Jesus was Old Covenant Jerusalem. True or
False?
Therefore, the ultimate coming of Christ in Revelation was
Christ’s coming in judgment of O.T. Jerusalem.
Argument:
Jesus: Christ was coming on the clouds, in his generation, in

judgment of Jerusalem when her cup of sin was full for killing
the prophets, Jesus and his apostles (Mt. 24:29-34). Is this True,
or False, Buster?
John: Christ was coming on the clouds, soon, in judgment of
Babylon, because her cup of sin was full for killing the prophets,
Jesus and his apostles (Rev. 22:10-12). Is this True, or False, bro.
Dobbs?
Therefore, the coming of Christ in Revelation, the ultimate
coming, was the A.D. 70 coming of Christ against Jerusalem for
filling her cup of sin for killing the prophets, Jesus and his
apostles.
Dobbs’ grossly evasive answers to my questions Re: Matthew
22, reveal his desperation.
Dobbs says if he did not see the parousia, it did not happen.
Matthew 24:29f predicted Christ’s coming on the clouds, with
angels and trumpet blast. Buster, has this happened? Yes, or No?
Do not fail to answer!
The utter bankruptcy of Dobbs’ futurism is patently obvious.
Dobbs’ Sixth Negative
Proving “realized eschatology” is false, answers the affirm-

ative.
It is not necessary to follow every jot and tittle of his circuitous
“reasoning.”
Preston surely knows that similar things are not necessarily
identical.
Syllogism
1. At his final advent, Jesus will destroy the universe (2 Pet

3:8-10)
2. It is inarguable that the universe continues
Conclusion: Jesus has not come the final time
(This is proof Matthew 24:29-35 is not talking about the
ultimate coming of Jesus – nothing more is needed.)
An Analytical Review of Matthew 24
1. Two questions are asked: (a) when will the Jewish Temple
in Jerusalem be destroyed? And (b) What shall be the sign of
Jesus’ final coming and the end of the world? (Matt 24:3)
2. The first question is answered in two parts: (a) Natural
and man made disorders continue and signify nothing (Matt
24:4-13), and (b) a foreign military force would compass Jerusa-
lem, portending the Temple’s destruction (Matt 24:15 & Luke
21:20).
3. At the coming of an invading army, people were to get
out of Jerusalem (Matt 24:16-22). (If this passage signifies anni-
hilation of the universe, why flee?)
4. “The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give
her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven ” (Matt 24:29).
5. ”[T]he tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory” (Matt 24:30).
6. The first-century generation would not pass away until
“all these things be accomplished” (Matt 24:34). All “these
things” happened in the 1st century.
7. Concerning the ultimate return of Jesus to destroy the
universe, Jesus said “But of that day and hour knoweth no one,
but the Father only” (Matt 24:36).
We know empirically the earth and its works are not dissolved
(2 Pet 3:10).
Therefore the items mentioned in Matt 24:3-34 do not include
the destruction of the universe ... that would come later.
False Teacher
Anyone who says Jesus made a literal return to earth in AD

70 is a false teacher (Matt 24:24-26) -- whether the false teaching
was in the first century or is in the twenty-first century ... it is
bogus.
Our brother Preston is a false teacher, and his doctrine is
bogus.
Jesus told us, “believe it not” (v. 23).
Matt 24:29-33
What is the meaning of “the sun shall be darkened and the

“stars falling from heaven,” and “the powers of the heavens
shaken” (Matt 24:29).
This sounds like the end of the world.
Is it?
The universe has not ended.
The inescapable conclusion is that Matt 24:29-33 is figura-
tive.
" thing is literal unless its context demands a symbolic under-
standing.
OT prophets used this type language to describe the end of a

political economy, or system.
Consider Isa 13:9-10: “Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh,
cruel, with wrath and fierce anger For the stars of heaven and the
constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be
darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light
to shine.”
Sounds like Matthew 24:29-30.
Sounds like the end of the world.
But Isaiah is talking about the fall of Babylon (see Isa 13:1).
See also Isa 24:23; Isa 34:4; Jer 4:23; Ezek 32:7; Joel 2:11;
2:30-32; "mos 5:20; 8:9. The prophets sometime used symbolic
language to speak of the end of a political system.
Jesus, in Matt 24:29-32, uses prophetic imagery to foretell the
end of the Mosaic system – not the end of the universe.
My respondent is making the same false arguments the Jeho-
vah’s Witnesses cult has made for more than 100 years.
2 Peter 3:3-4 says, “Knowing this first, that there shall come
in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, "nd saying,
Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell
asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the
creation.”
Surely my opponent will not say “the earth will never be
destroyed,” as do the Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Jesus said, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words
shall not pass away” (Matt 24:35).
Brother Preston, you must die physically. What then? If you
are now in the new heaven and the resurrection is past, you will
have no eternal future. Do you go along with the Jehovah’s
Witnesses on this point and say that physical death is annihilation,
or eternal cessation? If yes, where is your hope?

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Preston-Dobbs Debate

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY DON K. PRESTON

Preston’s Question #1:

Are your, (Buster Dobbs’), eschatological hopes, i.e. the hope

Dobbs’ Answer to Question # 1:

The question is somewhat difficult to follow, mainly because

out of the land of Egypt,” and, consequently, have made that

3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus in

2 if so be that ye have heard of the dispensation of that

3 how that by revelation was made known unto me the

4 whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my under-

5 which in other generation was not made known unto

6 to wit, that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs, and fellow-

7 whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of

9 and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the

I emphasize certain points Paul made because they are rele-

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the

11 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved,

12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the

13 But, according to his promise, we look for new

I call attention to the fact that Peter is here discussing “his

Do you, Buster Dobbs, believe that the coming of Christ

Dobbs’ Answer to Question #2

This is several questions. A single question would be, Do you

God said of Sarah, “Kings of peoples shall be of her” (Gen

The Eternal Kingdom seeks an earthly manifes-

David was Israel’s greatest king -- a type of Messiah. David

“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever” (Psa 45:6).

The Kingdom in the New Testament

Prince Immanuel appears. His forerunner was John the bap-

The Kingdom Comes

The Kingdom of God, sometimes called Kingdom of Heaven,

announced as near, or at hand. Jesus said that it, the Kingdom,

Jesus explained that man’s spirit must be born of water to enter

The apostles of Jesus misunderstood and supposed Jesus had

The saved are heirs of the kingdom. They anticipate “entrance

Kingdoms of Men and Satan

There are also other kingdoms at work in the universe. We

of God, and (4) Jesus came to remove Israel’s kingdom, and to

darkness. Satan is “the prince of this world” (John 12:31, Eph

The passage brother Preston asked about, which is an inter-

37 “And he answered and said, He that soweth the good

40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the

What brother Preston references is Jesus’ interpretation of the

5. Angels of the son of Man shall root out of the kingdom

I must assume that friend Preston meant Acts 1:9-11, which

9 And when he had said these things, as they were

10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven

11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye

It is obvious that the ascension of Jesus was not the second,

The passage under consideration reads:

23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the

26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

The question is – is this the ultimate coming of Jesus?

Verse 23 refers to the resurrection of Jesus, and to the general

13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, con-

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

I emphasize some of the things Paul says would happen at “the