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An interview from Rio de Janeiro by Atto Belloli


Ardessi

For all his 102 years of age, Oscar Niemeyer replies Section
Architecture, Interviews
succinctly regarding the aesthetic sense of space Author
and the artistic practice of architecture Atto Belloli Ardessi
Photography
Tuca Vieira
Published
26 Dec 2010
Avenida Atlantica 3940, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Tuesday 19 May 2009, at Keywords
5pm. Oscar Niemeyer kindly agreed to let me interview him in his top- Brasilia, Oscar Niemeyer, Ravello
floor attic studio overlooking Copacabana Beach. The main room has the Location
appearance of a wave, constructed around a continuous plate-glass Rio de Janeiro
window that offers a view to the horizon. In the middle of the room is a
grand piano that is played during pauses in the studio's work. For all his
102 years of age, the Brazilian architect replies succinctly regarding the Domus Network

aesthetic sense of space and the artistic practice of architecture. But he Add comment 0
also talks about the applied arts, Brasilia, new projects, and cities that Like 16
can change the life of man. 1

Atto Bel l ol i Ardessi : How do Brazi l i an arti sts i nterpret the concept of
utopi a? What i s a utopi a i n your vi ew ? Coul d Brasi l i a be consi dered a
utopi a?
Oscar Ni emeyer: I think Brasilia was always thought of as a necessity. In
the late '50s President Kubischeck believed that Brazil ought to develop
inland, so Brasilia was intended as a city that would lead to other
projects, expansions aspiring to repopulate the country's interior
regions. There is no utopia. Or rather this project was not only a utopia.

In your opi ni on, i s thi s necessi ty evi dent i n Brasi l i a's archi tecture?
How much has the ci ty's l ayout i nfl uenced soci ety, and i n parti cul ar
the i nhabi tants of Brasi l i a?
Brasilia's modern architecture employs reinforced concrete to find its
proper form, the line best suited to it as a symbol. The architecture we
offer is invention. We do not confine ourselves to organising space
simply with a view to creating functional forms. Architecture is
invention, a machine for creating surprise. Reinforced concrete makes
everything possible. We who use it as a plastic material must mould it
according to all the possibilities that technology provides. In Brasilia we
are currently building a 120-metre-high tower that will be topped by a
system of balancing mechanisms, pendulums and huge oscillating
structures which will move in every direction. The interior will contain
restaurants and other commercial facilities. We are also designing a kind

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It i s i nteresti ng that, despi te the use of rei nforced concrete, you


manage to gi ve your archi tecture such a natural appearance.
We try to use very few supports in our structures. If a building has few
points of contact with the ground, this makes it all the more audacious
and the spaces become more striking. Without impairing the principles of
reinforced concrete, people can walk right into the structure to discover a
different form. Our architecture approaches the field of art, of painting
and sculpture, in the sense that we still manage to create a kind of
architecture that provokes surprise and wonder, and that must always be
astonishing. An observer has to look at his or her surroundings and
immediately think that they are different. An artwork is based on the
emotion and surprise that it arouses. We would like to obtain the same
effect through architecture.

Duri ng the constructi on of Brasi l i a, w hat k i nd of rel ati onshi p w as


there betw een the archi tectural w ork s and the w ork of the arti sts
i nvi ted to tak e part i n the project?
I have always favoured the integration of the arts. My first ever project
was for a church at Pampulha. I designed a building full of curved
surfaces, and then called on Portinari, the best painter of the time, to
decorate an entire wall with azulejos. In this way, we always try to get
plastic artists to complete our works of architecture, as happened in
Brasilia, for example, with Athos Bulc√o. At the moment I'm building a
theatre at Niter‘ i where there will be a huge wall of azulejos. There
wasn't enough money to call on an artist, so in my own style I had to
paint some women dancing. I sometimes think that, putting their mere
structure aside, if the Renaissance palaces weren't embellished with their
fantastic paintings, they wouldn't be as wonderful as they are. I think
this is undeniable. We must come to terms with artists and their work,
and their work must concur with and adhere to the architecture. This
collaboration is indispensable.

Pra«a da Soberani a i s one of the most recent projects you have


presented for Brasi l i a, yet Brasi l i a turned i t dow n. Thi s seems odd to
me, qui te uni que i n your w hol e creati ve career.
I'd like you to see the project in a different light. When I saw that in
Brasilia's city plan the main piazza was going to be a small square
adjacent to the bus station, I realised that it ought to have been an
altogether different piazza. Therefore, since I am the person responsible
for Brasilia's architecture, I took it upon myself to suggest a new square
with an underground car park, but which was beautiful on the surface
and had monumental status. But there were many objections. Some
people thought I was too keen on influencing, or forcing, the plan for
Brasilia. Yet I influenced nothing and I respected everything. A capital
city ought to have a fine piazza, one you won't ever forget once you've
been there. People didn't accept this. I fought and had to explain how my
idea would have to be adapted to the context. I pointed out that I had the
right to fight for my architectural works in Brasilia to appear in the best
light, given that the main buildings are placed along a great axis, as if in a
stage set. But it was all in vain; they wouldn't accept it. I wanted to design
an isolated architectural feature, so the architecture would come across
more forcibly. But they said that a capital city must not be changed. But
it's not true, because all capitals have undergone changes. In Paris,
Napoleon created great avenues. In Spain, the city of Madrid has steadily
expanded towards the sea.

What does change mean for you?


I explained that a city has to undergo changes. It seems a modern idea,
but change can be forced on us in every sort of way. As a joke I told those
who had refused my project that it will soon be nature influencing the
city's layout. The ocean will rise by four metres when the polar icecaps
melt, submerging the coastal cities. But they don't want to modify
Brasilia. We should immediately start thinking about how to deal with
the situation in case the ocean does start to rise one day in 40 years'
time. We try to keep ourselves informed about this. For example, over the
last five years we have had a professor coming here to our office to talk
about philosophy and the cosmos. We also edit an architectural
periodical. Actually, architecture is just the pretext, while the magazine's
real purpose is to provide young people with the information they need.
In all disciplines, from medicine to engineering, when young people
finish their studies as specialists they can only talk about their idea of

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it. This magazine we publish serves as a means to introduce young people
to all kinds of things. Something like this can be an aid to understanding
life, which is the most important thing of all. We would like to make a
world in which there is more justice for everyone. We have to look at
others without searching for their defects, but attempting to see that
they, too, have qualities to offer in joint activities. We wish to stand up
for this solidarity in every respect. Here is the phrase I once used as the
motto for one of my exhibitions: "Life is more important than
architecture. The fight goes on. In defence of Latin America and the
progress of the world." This is the only reason we are experiencing a
moment which allows us to cherish a certain hope; this is the only way
everything will change, the only way that no one will be able to lay their
hands on Latin America. Because capitalism is in crisis.

In your vi ew , w hat i s the rel ati onshi p betw een space and
archi tecture?
When you get down to it, what are space and architecture? Give me a site
and a programme, and the architecture will emerge in keeping with the
programme and the site. Our architecture is created using reinforced
concrete, and there are only a few supports touching the ground. As a
result, the structure becomes lighter and more audacious, as I mentioned
before. The spaces also become more ample, and in this way modified so
that people can congregate in them. One must always make every
building unlike any other. It is the same concept as for a work of art,
which arouses emotion in the observer because he or she is seeing
something novel and different. Architecture, as I said before, is
invention. All the rest is repetition and of no interest. The secret is in the
programme; every detail must work perfectly... At the moment I am also
designing a theatre in Argentina, a pavilion that will hold as many as
2,000 people. My clients are enthusiastic about the project. It's true that
one might find a more beautiful theatre, but there won't ever be one
exactly the same. That's what makes it a work of art: it is a different and
surprising thing.

Whi ch ci ty w oul d you most l i k e to l i ve i n?


Ah, I am Brazilian. I love Rio, where we have the sea.

Why have you never thought of Brasi l i a?


Brasilia was badly laid out. It was done in a hurry, at a time when there
was nothing there at all.

Now that I've been i n Ri o for a few days, I'm struck by how certai n
bui l di ngs, especi al l y al ong the seafront, are posi ti oned al most as an
affront to thei r natural surroundi ngs. Look i ng from above, on the
other hand, I w as surpri sed at how the favel as seem more i ntegrated
w i th the envi ronment and that, extensi ve as they are, they're
paradoxi cal l y more respectful of i t.
Architecture is usually the result of the terrain and its surroundings. If
the terrain is steep, then architecture adapts itself to that. Even if they've
put up this great wall of buildings facing the sea, nature will scale it.
Nature is so rich as to overcome everything. Rio De Janeiro was founded
in 1500. The Portuguese built a road and erected buildings along it, side
by side. Two-, three-, or even four-storey buildings. They started this way
with utter simplicity. As soon as they finished one road they started
another. Architecture also followed the same path. Then one day they
felt they were running out of space and had to be more careful with it,
because the "garden" type of architecture had had its day. At that point
they began to build vertically and Rio became like New York, which is a
filthy mess. Let me explain. As buildings get taller they lose their hold on
the corresponding horizontal space, so that vertical architecture comes
to dominate. Only in France have I seen this concept used to good effect
in a vertical city, and that's in the district of La D…fense. There you find
both vertical architecture and horizontal spaces. It is a monumental and
beautiful city.

In Brasi l i a the streets runni ng at ri ght angl es to the mai n avenues


have no names, but onl y numbers. In Europe streets are usual l y
named after a person or an event. But i n your capi tal there are onl y
numbers. How i mportant i s i t for Brasi l i a to remai n i mpersonal ?
Brasilia is very simplified. There are two perpendicular axes and the
buildings are constructed in accordance with this intersection. When you
enter Brasilia you go through the most exclusive residential quarter

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of provincialism, because it is incorporating poverty into the wealthy
zone. But people don't care about this. We would have liked to create a
city that was both more simple and more homogeneous, where there
would have been neither so much poverty nor so much wealth. The kind
of architecture we communists would like is one in which the dwellings
were simpler, so that the major works, the theatres, the stadiums and the
cinemas, could be even larger, allowing everyone to participate in social
life. If I design a theatre today, who do I do it for? People don't even need
to enter it; they can see from outside and judge by that. But since I am
creating an original piece of architecture, I want everyone to share in it.
However, Brazil is very backward in these social aspects. Here in Rio,
people who live in the luxury apartments overlooking the sea regard the
favelas as enemy territory. Yet our brethren live there, stuck without
schools or any other facilities. It's only logical that they grow up angry
and rebellious. The worst thing is the lack of understanding. At least here
in my studio we try to provide an example of how we'd like people to
acquire a degree of knowledge. As I mentioned, for five years we have
had a teacher giving us lectures on literature, and now even on
cosmology. After his lessons we feel a little bit humbler. But it would be a
wonderful thing if the whole world could have an idea of the universe we
live in, which both humbles and enchants us at the same time. When we
look at the cosmos now, we feel small. We feel that man ought to be
simpler. Few things are important. Man is a poor wretch from the start.
One day a journalist came to me and asked: "What is the most important
word for you?" My answer was, "Solidarity." Another journalist asked,
"Oscar, what about life?" I told him: "Life is having a wife at your side,
and after that it's up to God." This is true. A wife is the most important of
comrades. As for life, take it as it comes. It's not at our command. Some
people come here thinking that we will save the world with architecture
or literature, but what is needed is solidarity. We have to think in terms
of equality, knowing that we men are not all that important, and
therefore we must be simpler at heart. The rest is trivial. I've had a lot of
work because I have been lucky. When I was young I designed a small
church that was just a little different, and got recognition at once. The
project was appreciated from the start. At that time I, too, was in search
of work. We have to be modest, without thinking of being important.
This thinking oneself important seems ridiculous to me. I only derive
pleasure from helping others.

So w hat do you thi nk represents the Brazi l i an utopi a?


Brasilia is nothing anymore. It is not an example, simply a provincial
capital.

When I w as i n Brasi l i a I noti ced that the archi tecture w as detached


and overw hel mi ng i n respect to the i ndi vi dual . In Ital y, w e often
suffer from a shortage of l i vi ng space i n our ci ti es, w hereas i n
Brasi l i a I fel t there w as al l too much of i t, as i f i n demonstrati on of i ts
hosti l i ty.
Brasilia, I repeat, was a real necessity. To move the capital into the
interior of the country was the choice adopted by the President. With the
same amount of money he could have built railways crossing Brazil from
side to side. But it would have only been one of many possible solutions.
He preferred to build a city, thinking ahead and imagining what is in fact
happening now: other towns are beginning to spring up around Brasilia,
occupying more of the country.

The interview with Oscar Niemeyer is taken from the book After Utopia. A
View on Brazilian Contemporary Art, published by the Luigi Pecci Centre for
Contemporary Art in Prato, Tuscany, with the International Institute of
Futurist Studies, for the exhibition curated by Atto Belloli Ardessi with
Ginevra Bria at the Pecci Centre from 25 October 2009 to 14 February
2010.

Atto Bel l ol i Ardessi » direttore artistico di Isisuf, Istituto Internazionale


di studi sul Futurismo. Svolge attivit¿ critica nell'ambito delle arti
plastiche moderne, contemporanee e del design, curando mostre e saggi.
® stato docente all'Istituto Europeo di Design e al Politecnico di Milano,
insegnando metodologia della comunicazione visiva e analisi delle
tendenze.

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Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

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