son_of_light asked this question on 9/9/2000:

Dear Son of Light,

I am answering your extraordinary charges by way of amusement. You see, with one
single exception, everything you have written about the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day saints and its members (Latter-day Saints – or sometimes, usually
pejoratively, ‘Mormons’) is untrue.

I have been a Latter-day Saint for fifty years, and am not brainwashed. Merely well
instructed in what I believe and what is normative belief for Latter-day Saints.

If there was a silver cup for collecting hog-wash and running it together and then
presenting that as a serious description of what a group about which you know nothing,
you would get the cup, have your name engraved on it and get to keep it forever.

I will take the time and answer you points one at a time. I hope that you have the good
grace to respond in just as detailed a way as I do in response to your ‘question.’ If you
seriously expect to be taken for a Christian, you will have the good grace to do that.

~~~~~~~
SOL: Mormans...what the heck?
~~~~~~~
A good title, but it all goes downhill after that!
~~~~~~~
SOL: I read someone describing Mormans as Christians on this board.
~~~~~~~
That could well have been me. I am LDS and I am a follower of Jesus Christ.
I know that most historic Christians would not afford me that honour, but nevertheless,
I claim it as a disciple of Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, and the Saviour and
Redeemer of the world.
~~~~~~~~

SOL: Here's 3 verses and a few facts that show the difference between Mormanism and
Christianity;

1) Jesus Return: Mormans believe that Jesus returned to North America,

~~~~~~
If you mean that we believe that the Second Coming has already happened, you are
mistaken.
~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: (uhh, ok) and was teaching whole villages of people things that I guess he "forgot"
to teach when he was last on earth.
~~~~~~~~~
If you had read the Book of Mormon account of the visit of the Saviour to the “lost
sheep of the House of Israel” you would be aware that Jesus told them very few thing
that he had not already told his followers and disciples in Palestine.
~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: (Oh ya, and for some reason he decided on North America,

~~~~~~~~~
There is no knowledge of the exact whereabouts of the Book of Mormon peoples, but
current thinking is that is was in the Yucatan Peninsula in Mesoamerica.
~~~~~~~
SOL: which doesn't line up at all with any Old Testament Prophesy concerning Jesus,

~~~~~~~~~~~
Several OT passages are understood by Latter-day Saints to mean that some of the
House of Israel will go to that place now known as the American continent. You need to
disabuse yourself of the idea that America means on,y North America.

Latter-day Saints also understand Jesus’ reference to his visiting “other sheep which are
not of [the Palestinian] fold” to mean his visit to the children of God who were on the
American continent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SOL: in which by his life on earth he Fullfilled over 1200 specific prophesies.)
~~~~~~~~~~
I should ask you to list them seeing that you are so confidant. But I won’t. I will, I
prophesy, have enough trouble to get you to answer the questions that I shall ask here.
I will number my questions so that you can identify them.
~~~~~~~~~
SOL: Anyway, so Suddenly Joseph Smith
~~~~~~~~~~
Congratulations! You spelled his name right. I am not being picky, but unless I keep
my sense of humour intact whilst dealing with your fictional accounts of things here, I
shall probably have a nervous breakdown.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
SOL: ( as history records a notoriously troubled man who was forever clashing with his
traditional Christian Parents.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QUESTION ONE: (three parts)
What evidence do you produce to show:

a. that Joseph Smith was a notoriously troubled man? (You will get this from the
imaginary ‘history’ that you mention.
b. What evidence do you produce that he was ‘forever clashing with his parents”?
c. What evidence do you produce to show that Joseph Smith Sr and Lucy Mack
Smith were traditional Christians?

Another anti-Mormon, Sidney Bell, In his highly imaginative (that means inaccurate and
mostly untrue) book, “THE WIVES OF THE PROPHET,” claims that elder Smiths had
“weird religious gatherings.” Yet you say that they were traditional Christians.

One of the difficulties facing anti-Mormons is that they can not agree as to their ‘facts’
their ‘histories’ not their explanations for the origin of the Book of Mormon. No wonder
that Latter-day saints smile a lot when their most ardent enemies are in such disarray.
Your offering here will cause many a titter at its impudence, and raucous guffaws at
your content and your baseless assertions.
~~~~~~~~~
SOL: hundreds of years later has a vision of Jesus, and he leads him to find these
Golden Tablets or books under a tree (again, in North America)
~~~~~~
Now that’s really interesting. I have never before heard anyone claim that the gold
plates were found under a tree. That’s not what Joseph said, and that’s not what
anyone else believes.

You have a fertile imagination and I am amused, but why not get your story straight?
At least that way you would only be a little bit eccentric and not a whole lot wobbling as
you are here.
~~~~~~~~
SOL: and Lo and Behold! The Lost Books of the book of Morman. Frankly, this is
preposterous.
Preposterous describes just what I was thinking. I have never heard of the lost books
of the book of Mormon. Tell me honestly – you make this up, don’t you?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
SOL: Where are the "golden Tablets"? Are you saying God would show them to you,
you would be able to carry them(Golden tablets+hundreds of pounds each)
~~~~~~~~
So, you know the weight of the plates, do you? If you imagine that the plates were
solid gold your estimation might be close. But it has never been claimed that they
were. You must be a sloppy reader or else you are copying someone who it.

On the Mormonism board of this date there is an excellent response to just this kind of
question about the supposed weight of the plates. Please read it.
~~~~~~~~~
SOL: and then you LOSE them?
Are they lost? Oh, dear! You are hopelessly wrong again.

The plates were never lost. You are indebted to your imagination for your facts. Show
the evidence, man.

At the conclusion of the work of translation, the Angel Moroni came and took the plates.
I know that you will say that is convenient, but that’s what we believe and we are stuck
with it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SOL: Oh, but only after he copies them into an absurd collection of letters he publishes
for no other reason othe than to dicredit the Christianity he hates.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you believe that the Book of Mormon is a collection of letters, then that it further
proof, were it needed, to convince that you have never read it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: Jesus Will not, has not and cannot return like that. He said it, not me. Luke
21:25--Jesus says what will happen when he returns to earth. It says
the whole earth will be affected, the stars will shake, and we will all see the Son of Man
coming on a cloud of Glory.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You do not seem to understand the Bible,. Of which, you say, you are so fond! Is it
your contention that after the death of Jesus he went straight to his father in heaven?

The Bible has Jesus telling us that he did not do that. See John 20:17.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: So whats with the whole Morman thing?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Patience, you will see.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: 2) Jesus said " It is Finished" His father was taking him back home, not to return
in Glory untill the appointed time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Right. Not to return in “glory,” as Latter-day Saints believe he will do at the Parousia.

QUESTION TWO (TWO PARTS)

A. did Jesus appear to Paul at least six times, and to John at Patmos, and to
Stephen, standing on the right hand of the Father? And did not Jesus “show
himself alive by many infallible proofs to over 500 of the brethren at Galilee?”
B. Did Jesus appear to these people? Could he have done so to the people on the
American continent had he wished to do so?

~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: **3)I give you the words of Jude 1:4 "...they are godless men, who CHANGE the
grace of God into a license for immortality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign
and Lord."

Did you mean to say ‘immorality’ here?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On the contrary, Latter-day Saints believe Christ’s words when he told the people in
Palestine that he had ‘other sheep […] which were not of this fold. Them also must I
bring and they shall hear my voice.’

Latter-day saints accept the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, our only Sovereign and
Lord, our Saviour and Redeemer. They do not accept the Doctrine of the Trinity as
developed in the fourth and fifth centuries, and into which they were steered by the
pagan emperor Constantine who directed the council – of which he was not legally a
member – to adopt Athanasius’ view. Constantine was not a theologian either, but he
was a shrewd politician.

~~~~~~~~~

SOL: The Mormans Deny Christ’s own words!

~~~~~~~~

Latter-day Saints believe Christ’s words. Probably more literally than many other non-
Mormon Christians do.

~~~~~~~~~

SOL: It seems so absurd to me that the religion even uses the Bible...

~~~~~~~~

Explain why it is absurd. What is your reason?

~~~~~~~~~

SOL: of course their Old Testament is carefully "Edited."

~~~~~~~~~~

This is hilarious. And leads, inevitably, to

QUESTION THREE:

A. where is the Holy Bible used by Latter-day Saints edited? Give chapter and verse in
each case.

While you are busy looking up all those references, I will tell the other readers that the
Holy Bible used by latter-day Saints is the King James (Authorised) Version and it is not
edited in even one particular.

I just can’t let this pass without commenting on the absolute foolishness of the may
assertions you have made thus far, and we are not even halfway through your treatise
on Mormons.

~~~~~~~~~

SOL: Why use a bible you then deny by the very fundimentals of your faith?

You have begged the question – a rather dishonest trick used by villains to win
arguments without putting forth any facts.

Latter-day Saints accept the Bible as the word of God. We do not, however, believe in
its inerrancy, nor does the Bible demand that anyone should.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: Why not just use the Book of Morman,

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Because the Word of God is important to us, wherever it is from. God’s word is God’s
Word and Christians should receive it with gladness and rejoicing. Simhat torah!
~~~~~~~~

SOL: at least there’s no contradiction there.

~~~~~~~~~

OK – there are no contradictions in the Book of Mormon. You can have a stripe for one
honest statement. However, this is a case of the first shall be the last, because you are
right back on track after your short break out of character.

I hope you are not getting upset with me – I am just shovelling truth back to replace
your lies (is that too strong> Fibs, OK?) with more good humour than you delivered
your load.

~~~~~~~~

SOL: Of course, if any of you Mormans can get you hands on an OLD copy of the Book
of M., I'd be very surprised.

~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, you are right back in the mud hole. The text of the original Palmyra Grandin Book
of Mormon is published by Deseret Books (the LDS Church’s bookseller) and is available
on GospeLink CD. I have it sitting on my computer desktop. Are you surprised? Why?

~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: Wonder why? Because 50 years ago the end of the world was written in there and
was supposed to happen. Josheph Smith told his first converts the same thing, that in 2
years it was gonna be the end of the world.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, so that’s why. The original text of the first 1829 edition of the Palmyra edition
stands today as it stood then.

QUESTION FOUR:

a. Why do you say that the end of the world was written in it fifty years ago. (That
would be in 1950, the year I joined the Church and became a Christian.)

~~~~~~~~~

SOL: The Book of Morman has been revised so many times it's scary,

~~~~~~~~~

QUESTION FIVE:

How many times has the Book of Mormon been ‘revised’ and what, exactly has been the
extent of those revisions? Chapter and verse of each revision, before and after, please.
BTW – it don’t scare me.

SOL: while the Bible can be verified, especailly the Old Test. back to 650 BC(approx),
with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

~~~~~~~~~~~

QUESTION SIX:

Do you really believe that a complete Bible, or that a complete set of Old Testament
documents was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Fully documented answer, please.

~~~~~~~

SOL: . And the new as far back as 150 AD

~~~~~~~~

QUESTION SEVEN:

Do you really believe that the complete text of the New Testament dated AD150 exists?

Fully documented answer, please.

~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: 3) as for the Book of Morman itself, wow!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes – the Book of Mormon. WOW! And Hallelujah!! Praise the Lord – more of His Word!

~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: Revelation 22:18 basically says, "Don't add to this book or take anything away
from it!

~~~~~~~~~~

QUESTION EIGHT:

Do you believe that this refers to the Book of Revelations, or to the Holy Bible.
(Extreme caution advised here.)

~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: It's complete!"

~~~~~~~~~~~

QUESTION NINE:
Provide Biblical reference(s) to prove that the Bible ever says that it is complete?

~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: So, umm, how the heck do you justify the Book of Morman? "sorry, uhh, God
FORGOT some stuff, and waited thousands of years to give it to Joseph Smith."

~~~~~~~~~~

No. God hadn’t forgotten anything. It was just time and the world was ready for the
Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God is the best judge of his own timing, but had the Restoration been attempted earlier,
or in a different place, the likelihood is that it would have had an even harder time
surviving than it has today and since Joseph Smith’s time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: Uhh, ok. Also, why the edited Bible?

~~~~~~~~~~~

When you provide references to show how Latter-day Saints have ‘edited’ the text of
the King James Bible, then I will tell you why it was done. Ready when you are.

~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: And why only the King James?

~~~~~~~~~~~

This version is the Standard Work of the Church because the beauty and power of its
language speaks to the hearts of humanity. Much better, I would say, that some of the
modern versions. Read the 23rd psalm in several versions and see what I mean.

SOL: Because it sounds more like the Book of Morman Joseph wrote...

~~~~~~~~~~

No. Remember that the Bible was published before the Book of Mormon. Joseph
translated using what may approximate to Biblical language, but only because religious
works are special and should be regarded as such.

Few anti-Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was capable of writing the book of Mormon
at that tender age. Yet you claim to know that he did. Evidence?

~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: Joseph Smith copied elements of the Bible to lend credibility to his cracked up new
religion.
~~~~~~~~~~
You could say that, but the only real similarities, textually, are the Isaiah portions.

~~~~~~~~~

SOL: So, he of course copied the style of the King James bible, the only one there was
at the time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

The alarm bell just rung again. If you think there was only the KJV available at the time
of Joseph Smith you are mistaken. See if you can find at least one other in common
use at that time. I am not making this a question because, frankly, it is all a bit silly.
But you do need to find out what the situation really was, as you are evidently not in
possession of all the facts.

See what you can find.

~~~~~~~~

SOL: If the MOrmans started packing NIV's, they'd have to update the book of morman,
but apparently, lies sound more authoritative in Old English.

QUESTION EIGHT:

What emendations would have to be made to the Book of Mormon to bring it up to date
with the NIV?

Provide chapter and verse references in the KJV, BOM, and NIV. If the task is too
overwhelming for you I will be content with, say, twenty triple references.

SOL: There is Nothing, literally, nothing to back up Mormanism as a genuine sect of

Christianity,

~~~~~~~~~~

Latter-day Saints are Christian in faith and practice.

Everything that is done is done in the name of Jesus Christ.

Our prayers are addressed to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

We differ from some parts of some historic Christian denominations and sects, but are,
nevertheless, firmly Christian.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: other than a small strategic point: Truth is universal, right? So by using the basic
tenants of Christianity,

~~~~~~~~~~~~
You probably mean ‘tenets.’

But, whoa, old horse! If Latter-day Saints use the basic tenets of Christianity, what is
your objection to their Christianity?

You will need to explain this to an old duffer such as myself, for you have lost me in the
fog of your tortuous reasoning.

~~~~~~~~~

SOL: you can lend a serious amount of "stability" and credibility to your made up faith.

~~~~~~~~

But, we can’t fool you, eh?

~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: People recognize Christian beliefs, the good family values, and then JOseph and
his actors added the Bible.

~~~~~~~~~

QUESTION NINE:

Added the Bible to what?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: Hey, when you pack the bible around, you have to admit, it looks alot more
credible

~~~~~~~~~~~

Latter-day Saints do not usually advertise what they Are carrying so how would people
know what books they have? They are not scripture salesmen. They give the books
away.

~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: than The "book of Morman" with its fake bible names.

QUESTION TEN:

Tell me fifteen “fake Bible names”

~~~~~~~~~

SOL: (side note: take the names of the books in the book of Morman, and try to figure
out which two names from the real Bible were mixed together to make them up! it's like
a word search!)
~~~~~~~~~~~

OK – Just give me fifteen. That should be easy now you have cracked the secret
Mormon code and know how it’s done.

Earlier critics like you believe that the Book of Mormon was either the works of Cicero
copied backwards, or else the Bible copied upwards.

They had not read the Book of Mormon either. And they were just as ridiculous..

SOL: So, an elaborate hoax was swallowed by some people, and eventually, over the
years, has become an institution we all have locked our doors to at one point in time.

Not everyone locks their doors against our ambassadors, and in the last three years we
added over one million members to Church rolls.

That’s an awful lot of doors that aren’t “all locked.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: So whats with some people calling it "Christian"?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes – you have admitted that it has Christian tenets, so what’s wrong with calling it
Christian? Especially if it IS Christian!

~~~~~~~~~

SOL: I have no doubt that some genious morman could out-debate me on this
matter..well, he'd have to, I guess, to sleep at night.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Sounds like you are ready to admit defeat here. I am a Mormon but I am no genius. I
have a very ordinary degree in theology, biblical and religious studies, but I can
understand the rules of evidence, and if you make statements, you should be prepared
to produce cogent supporting evidence, or else retract your allegations.

I have no difficulty sleeping at nights and I’d sleep even if I were too dumb to notice
your catalogue of nonsensical untruths.

How you can sleep with yourself unloading all this tripe is my big worry for you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: But the evidence is staggering, I mean, really.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
All right – Son of Light. I am ready to be staggered. Trot out your evidence as
requested and I’ll come and sing hymns next to you every Sunday and pay my tithing to
your pastor.

~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: The best person to talk to is a former morman.

~~~~~~~~~~

Not necessarily the best, but a good person to talk to would be an honest ex-member.

Talking to a dishonest ex-member, such as those who now run profitable exposé
businesses and take your money for their nonsense, and who know better, but continue
their dishonest professions anyway, now that they have become “Christians, ” will only
further your exposure to the lies, defamations, misrepresentations, and
decontextualisation that you have been treated to in the original question to my
somewhat lengthy – of necessity – response.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOL: One inside the church structure is so badly brainwashed and controlled.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am inside – have been for half a century, yet I am neither controlled nor brainwashed,
and I am willing to undergo any professionally administered test to prove that I, and
only I, am in control of my mind and that I have none of the classic symptoms of
brainwashing.

The ball is in your court.

A good example of brainwashing is the process by which you have come to accept all
the rubbish – absolute rubbish – that you present here, doubtless with solemn face, and
hope to have accepted as the TRUTH ABOUT MORMONS!

~~~~~~~~~

SOL: They even have morman brand flour....

~~~~~~~~~~~

I do not use Mormon flour. I have never heard of it, but I do eat Quaker Oats for
breakfast. Am I in any danger?

~~~~~~~~

SOL: geez.

~~~~~~~~~

a contraction of “Jesus.” No Christian would take the Lord’s name in vain.

~~~~~~~~

SOL: Lord, save 'em.

We rely on the Lord Jesus Christ to save us and no hope of salvation in any other name.

Looking forward to receiving fully referenced and documented answers to my TEN

QUESTIONS.

Ronnie Bray – Mormon and Christian.

I heard nothing further from this Son of Light.